posted on October 22, 2000 10:19:20 AM new
Someone asked:
"Why would any honest seller object to getting a license?"
Good question.
I'm an honest seller, and I object to government attempts to license online auction sellers. Here's why (from an earlier post of mine):
1. The courses and the exams that these states require for auction licensing have precious little to do with online auctions. The have everything to do with brick and mortar auctions. And they are totally different animals! Regulators are not requiring that brick and mortar auctioneers educate themselves about online auctions (digital photos, FTP, online searching, effective email, shipping techniques, etc.), why should online sellers learn how to call bids and the like? Makes no sense.
2. These states require credit checks and criminal background checks as part of the application, and may deny applications based on some vague and unstated criteria. I know many online auctioneers that have had financial difficulties, some with bankruptcies in the past, who may not pass these requirements, although they are great online auction sellers!
3. These states are threatening to enforce these laws with criminal sanctions, which seems totally out of proportion with the stated purpose.
4. The stated purpose of auctioneer licensing is to protect the consumer from fraud. It will do no such thing, IMO, as the fraudulent sellers will not become licensed. Only the legitimate sellers, fearful of criminal sanctions for non-compliance, will be penalized. And because auction boards typically investigate based on complaints, licensed online auction sellers will become subject to selective enforcement by government boards.
5. I believe that, generally, less government regulation is better than more. I also believe that this industry is moving toward self regulation, via groups like the OAUA.
6. There are a plethora of laws on the books currently to protect consumers from fraud. Online auction sellers are already required to comply with these laws, and they should be enforced. In addition, online auction sellers are required to comply with the postal regulations, and are subject to federal mail fraud sanctions (something the brick and mortar folks are not generally subject to).
7. I think this is the "camel's nose in the tent"....if we allow this to occur in these one or two states, others will surely follow. We are a relatively new industry, and there is as yet little voice representing online auction sellers (and buyers)...we have been seen as an easy target for regulators for this reason. Thankfully, we proved this wrong in North Carolina!
8. I don't believe that online auction sellers are "auctioneers," and I DO believe that New Hampshire regulators are misapplying and misinterpreting an old law. One of the prime reasons that some (but not all) states license B&M auctioneers is because they take items on consignment, and hold funds for the consignor following the close of auction. Neither of these reasons apply to most online auction sellers. As an example of how absurd it is to try to apply B&M auction licensing laws to online auction sellers, consider that in NC, licensed sellers are required to post a sign, of specified dimensions, outside their business. Does this regulation apply to online auction sellers? Clearly not- and that's just one of many examples...Online auction sellers would be in voilation of statutes the moment they became licensed under these schemes- leaving them vulnerable to selective enforecment and anonymous complaints of competitors.
9. I believe that if this is allowed to continue, many small online auction sellers, who sell for profit from their homes to help make ends meet, will be pushed out of this market. We should encourage folks to better themselves, not discourage them.
Anyway, that's my take on it. BTW, I'm in California, which has NO auction licensing laws, and gets along just fine, thank you!
posted on October 22, 2000 11:00:02 AM new
Sheesh, can't these states be happy some of their residents are providing them with that extra State Income Tax for their Pork-Barrel projects??
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on October 22, 2000 01:06:43 PM new
1. It's too far to go back, as NC found.
2. As pointed out, RL auctioneers acquire a financial responsibility by collecting money on behalf of sellers. A good reason to regulate which does not generalize particularly well to individual-individual transactions.
3. The UCC contains no regulations at all. It contains codes, which explain responsibilities in various contexts.
4. I myself truly wish that we could educate sellers as to the law, to reduce such nonsense as "seller not responsible for lost packages if no insurance is purchased". However, the cure is likely far worse than the disease.
posted on October 22, 2000 01:09:57 PM new
Probater,
Sounds like you REALLY want this to happen!
I get it. Then everyone else can post their auctions with you and you'll broker with ebay, taking a nice chunk out of the middle. As long as there are people with brains, I don't see it happening. Write Santa. Maybe you'll get it for Christmas. Here's his address:
Santa and Mrs. Clause
North Pole.
This thing needs to be put to bed forever!!!
[ edited by Puddy on Oct 22, 2000 01:35 PM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 01:14:39 PM new
Well as someone else mentioned, one point of licenses is to limit competition and to protect the established players. We are lucky that the B&M auction industry is not a strongly unionized or organized crime linked industry or this would be a much more nasty issue.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:00:51 PM new
But I don't want to pay taxes boo hoo
Seriously what if its someone with just a few things to sell. You know like someone who just want to clear out a few books etc. Does he need to get a license?.
I think its going to be tough for the IRS to catch everyone. Its those sellers that sells thousands a month i.e PC sellers who sell 20-30 systems a month & not declaring tax.
YES, I REALLY want licensing for eBay sellers, and I lobby actively for licensing, both at the Federal and State levels.
I have personally been ripped-off numerous times on eBay, and I know that if a licensed auction firm ripped me off, the State would immediately arrest the offenders.
When I was defrauded on eBay, I had no recourse. I filed complaints with every Federal and State agency and nothing was ever done to rectify the fraud.
I hate to see the crooks win, and I am working hard to change the rules, by requiring rules.
magazine_guy, you are mistaken about the auction exams. The auction firm tests cover the UCC and the sales of all manner of goods via auction. All of the test content is relevent to eBay sellers.
The test also make sure that the auction firms are aware of the penalties for fraud and misrepresentation.
As for eBay related material, my 9 year-old daughter can do FTP. You were joking, right?
As for the credit check, I especially support this requirement.
I personally do NOT want to entrust my money to anyone who has EVER filed bankruptcy. They could do it again and stiff me.
In any case, I am hopeful that 2001 will bring regulation to this out-of-control situation . . .
posted on October 22, 2000 03:12:33 PM new
Probater,
I'm not for the crooks either. I've been lied to at live auctions too by licensed auctioneers. As always caveat emptor! I have enough regs in my life.
Dinner calls.
bye
posted on October 22, 2000 03:13:09 PM new
probater
"I personally do NOT want to entrust my money to anyone who has EVER filed bankruptcy. They could do it again and stiff me."
This has got to be the dumbest statement I have ever heard in years.
Lets see one of your kids files for Bankruptcy,who gets laid off at work and cannot find another job or one that paid as much as the one they had.
They do their best too keep up but fail to do so and have to file bankruptcy.
I guess that makes your kid a crook and cannot be trusted with your money.
Some of the VP's of the largest companies in the World have bankruptcy's on their records as well.Yet you spend money with those on a daily basis and do not give it a second thought.
I cannot believe that someone who has a bankruptcy would be considered a criminal by you.
I thought these post's where supposed to be intelligent.
Tell me as well,when you call your auctions live for this test what this has got to do with ebaY.
How many times have you been de-frauded?
What do you consider to be fraud?
Are you suggesting that on a number of occasions that you have bought items off sellers on ebaY and never received the goods.
I have never filed for bankcruptcy but no many who have and these are people I would trust with my money.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:27:12 PM new
I was thinking too and realised that the only time I got ripped off.Was by a real brick and mortar auction house.
Where I bought the item as described on an absentee bid.I asked lots of questions about it before I bid.They said it was as described as a first edition.
Well I bought it,it got here 3500.00 it cost me and it was not as described.I complained and they told me tough its mine.
I complained to the good old boy network and it was tough from them too.
Said it wasmy word against there's.
And they where licensed a lot of good the license did me.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:43:29 PM new
*****************************************
Moderator where are you?
"This has got to be the dumbest statement I have ever heard in years."
"I thought these post's where supposed to be intelligent."
******************************************
Adrian, I know several big-time print dealers who no longer buy your products because of statements like this. One of them really hates you and tells other dealers to avoid your auctions.
Regarding the dumbest statement you have heard in years, I have been in legal research for many years, and I know that the vast majority of bankruptcy could have been avoided it if they honestly tried to re-pay their debts.
Most who file bankruptcy want to stiff their creditors. Personally, I consider bankruptcy immoral, dishonest and repugnant.
I have never known a single person who filed bankruptcy and later re-paid any of their "forgiven" debt.
That is why most States deny auction firm licenses to this class of person.
Yes, if my own son filed bankruptcy, I would consider him financially irresponsible, and I would never loan him a dime.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:50:18 PM new
Probator: I think that the statement, "This has got to be the dumbest statement I have ever heard in years." refers to the message (content) and not the poster.
Now, if someone said, "You are the dumbest person I have seen in years" THAT would be a personal insult.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:56:37 PM new
probater
Okay this turning into a personal insult forum and that was not intended.
I was just questioning a statement of fact that makes no sense to me.
Also most people who sell and buy on ebaY have to get verified using a credit card.
It is very difficult for someone who has a bankcuptcy to qualify for such.So there could be very few people on ebaY with such.
So I am trying to illustrate that by eliminating these people will have little effect on the problems you see on ebaY.
I am sure with as many items I sell there are bound to be people who no longer will bid on an item for one reason or another.
But feedback speaks for itself
I was not trying to turn this into a personal attack forum.
posted on October 22, 2000 03:59:30 PM new
Lotsafuz:
Thanks for the clarification. So am I allowed to say?
"Adrian's post content is full of grammatical errors, misspelling, poor punctuation and circular logic. The argument of this post is full of non-sequiturs and tautologies, and the tenor of the post is immature, insulting, and childish."
[ edited by probater on Oct 22, 2000 04:01 PM ]
posted on October 22, 2000 04:14:55 PM new
Since the topic "You need a auction license to sell on eBay NOW" is a blatent lie, why even bother discussing it at ALL???
posted on October 22, 2000 04:18:39 PM new
I've given in to hysteria. I've canceled all my auctions and sent email to my bidders that I'm having to cease operations on eBay until I get my auction license.
I had written this thread off as a "The Sky Is Falling" post, but since running out of my medication I've begun to see the seriousness of the situation.
On another serious note I suspect my cat is an informer for the IRS. It has been brushing itself against my filing cabinet and I fear it is collecting data for a tax fraud report.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:26:25 PM new
Probator: "Auction Firm" means a sole proprietorship of which the owner is not a licensed auctioneer, or any partnership, association, or corporation, not otherwise exempt from this Chapter, that sells either directly or through agents, real or personal property at auction, or that arranges, sponsors, manages, conducts or advertises auctions, or that in the regular course of business uses or allows the use of its facilities for auctions. This definition applies whether or not an owner or officer of the business acts as an auctioneer.
I don't mean any disrespect to anyone, but its true what they say about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. This NC statute couldn't be more clear in that it does not apply to Ebay sellers. I mean, for crying out loud. Read the thing. Better yet, comprehend it.
And my god, the idea that continued regulation of the "little guy" keeps away the crooks is just a belly laugh full of rhetoric. If what you espouse wasn't so damned dangerous at its core, I might be laughing too. But ideas like yours never seem to stop. They perpetuate themselves, like a cancer, encroaching further and further on the liberty of Americans, slowly eroding our free actions until finally we can't move without the say so, or knowledge of some regulating body.
The bottom line IMO is that if you were even half right, the death penalty would be a deterent to hard core criminals. Guess what, it's not.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:52:29 PM new
probater:
Just wanted you to know that I am not impressed by your statement, "I have been in legal research for many years."
I have a brother who has been a practicing attorney for about 30 years with one of his specialties in bankruptcies.
BTW I disagree with your accessment of people who file for bankruptcies.
In my opinion, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones. None of us are perfect, probater. I am sorry that this has turned into a discussion of stereotypes of a group of individuals.
In closing, it is like babysitters who are licensed with the state. It don't mean xxxx.
Over the last 25 years, I have known very reliable, responsible, dependable, caring sitters who weren't licensed and I have known licensed ones that I wouldn't let them watch my toe.
posted on October 22, 2000 06:55:55 PM new
Well if this is not a troll threat, then its a Polly Klass Syndrome. Probater has been burned and he is now on a crusade.
The problem is that unlike Polly's Dad (who was a very powerful force in getting 3 strikes laws passed thru out the nation, and for getting serial killer fan pages taken off the internet) regulating auction is not very "sexy" and doesn't make for a good sound bite.
By hammering on the subject, it is more likely the sellers will start to pro-actively lobby against registration.
Industry regulation like this is rarely done via "public outrage", not since the beginning of food regulation in the US.
Generally lobbyists meet with elected officals and give them alot of money, and regulations are then buried in some odd bill that no one reads, or done via an administrative entry in the CFR.
This issue is the only issue where I think Ebay actually lobbied on behalf of the sellers (something which ebay generally refuses to do).
I sure Ebay could buy the NC Auction Commission lock, stock, and barrel with just the cash that Meg uses for post-it note pads.
So Prob... can you prove your lobbying for this? Surely you can scan some replies you've gotten from fed and state officals and put them on a web page. Black out anything personal.
posted on October 22, 2000 07:16:26 PM new
First, eBay's computer programs and resources conduct the auction, therefore they are the auctioneers by default. The sellers just post and walk away until closing night. No different than the off-line auction houses.
Secondly, a state is going to have a hard time getting a piece of interstate trade. There is no Constitutional provision which allows a state to regulate business actually transacted in another state, nor interfere with interstate trade.
New York actually sent revenue agents into New Jersey a number of years ago to look for New York license plates in Jersey shopping malls with the intent to follow up on the purchases and stop the vehicle at the New York line and charge the tax! New Jersey sent the New York revenues into retreat with their tails tucked between their legs!
Think of the impact to the common off-line mail order industry if every state could claim a chunk no matter where the purchase was actually completed.
State revenuers, the Post Office, the phone companies and the you-name-its have been trying to get a piece of your internet activities for over ten years now and have failed at all attempts.
