posted on October 22, 2000 08:13:01 PM new
An Auctioneer is an agent between buyer & seller...It is e-bay or any other online auction company's responsibility to comply with the auction license rules. No auction commission can fine anyone but the company/person who offers the venue service. e-bay would be held responsible because they are the acting agent between buyer & seller. The bad thing about this situation is: the only thing e-bay does if they catch someone doing something illegal...is they warn them, or kick them off for 30 days...(they usually just sell under a different name).((this is not a aution law, this is e-bay law)) THE ONLY PENALTY E-BAY GETS IS THEY LOOSE THAT SELLERS FINAL VALUE FEE AT THAT TIME...but if an Auctioneer gets caught doing somehing illegal, they not only risk loosing their license, they also get a heavy fine. (definetly makes you think twice before you do something your not supposed to do!) So here is the bad News: Yes in time E-bay will have to hold a license in every state that requires one...So either way we all will have to pay....E-bay will stiffen up on what they will allow..(this is fine, it will weed out the crooks), but they also will have to charge sellers more to compensate for the license fee's and bonds and education classes..(some states require.) OR they will decide they don't want this responsibility, and require the sellers to have a License.(new problem with this)...a licensed auctioneer has to carry a license for each state they sell in....So either way It can be a problem...AS FAR AS THIS WAS LAST DECEMBERS NEWS...Ignoring this won't make it disappear! There are way to many Auctioneers that pay for their licences and abide by the laws to let this go away...The online auctions have taken away from how they make a living.(and why should they have to follow the rules, when an online auction company/or/sellers don't have to)....Laws that were approved and passed in Legislation have been on the books for a very long time! And the Law is on the Auctioneers side! The cuprit here is not the Auctioneers..(they have a ligitimate gripe), and so do the Honest online sellers....it is the crooks on the online auctions who make it rough on us all, and e-bay for not following the Law!! On the Up-side as a Seller, I guess we all should enjoy it while it lasts!!!
posted on October 22, 2000 09:16:10 PM new
eBay did lobby behind the scenes against the enforcement posture being taken by the auction board in NC. They weren't acting in the best interest of auction sellers, really, but in their own interests.
My understanding was that eBay wanted to make sure that the auction board in NC was not successful in interpreting online auctions as "auctions" within the meaning of the old B&M statutes, in particular to make sure that a precedent wasn't set identifying eBay as an "auctioneer" by a state auction licensing board.
In this case, eBay's interests and the interests of sellers aligned, and the misguided regulatory efforts were stopped.
Auctioneers aren't required to be licensed in eBay's home state of California, although there are plenty of regulations covering B&M auctions. That said, eBay makes a point of labeling itself as a "personal trading community," and not an auctioneer, in order to avoid this additional layer of regulation entirely. And I don't blame them.
The old B&M auction laws are no better suited to eBay than they are to eBay's sellers. While we call these things "auctions," and they have many characteristics in common, they are more akin to online retail sales than to B&M auctions.
The "gotta regulate 'em to protect the public against fraud" argument is a red herring. It's all about revenues to the states and the local licensing boards. There are plenty of laws against fraud- crooked sellers wouldn't become licensed at any rate, and licensing will do absolutely nothing to help protect the public against fraud. If states are so concerned about fraud, they should use existing statutes to prosecute the crooks, not misapply existing statutes and use intimidation and threat of jail to license Mom and Pop- who are making a few extra bucks out of their back bedroom.
We've got plenty of government regulation already, in my view. Don't need any more.
posted on October 22, 2000 09:24:51 PM new
I think they will make some headway with the argument of where is the sale actually taking place? In each state, or where their servers are located?
Same premise mail order companies operate buy. They generally only charge sales tax if the order comes in from the state their operation is located in. No one else has a claim. If said operation is located in several states, again, they can only charge for sales tax in the states they have operations located in.
Sales transactions at eBay travel electronic pathways, just as orders placed with mail order companies travel via the US Post Office. States cannot tax the transaction as it traverls of each state line, as this constitutes interstate trade, but a state can tax sale based on the location it actually took place at (the server end or the mail order companies home office mail box).
posted on October 23, 2000 10:22:04 AM new
Probator:
Here is the thing, who is the auction house? eBay. I have worked for real auction houses, depending on which state, have to be licensed. The individual employees for the auction house or the people that consign product to the auction house do not have to be.
posted on October 23, 2000 10:30:39 AM new
"There are way to many Auctioneers that pay for their licences and abide by the laws to let this go away...The online auctions have taken away from how they make a living."
Oh boy, I don't know what "real life" auctions are like where you are, but I can tell you for sure that eBay most definitely has NOT "taken away" from the auctioneers around here. They are realizing prices at their RL auctions many, many, many times higher than they used to see BE (before eBay). Boxes of books that used to sell for $2-3 are now going for $20, 30, 40, 50 and more. And it's the same for almost anything.
Any B&M auctioneer that fights against online auction sellers is going to regret it, if the "small timers" are forced out of online auction sales the RL auctioneers will see a dramatic drop in prices.
posted on October 23, 2000 11:01:17 AM new
The scary thing is that probator could be right about retroactive fines.
Suppose, for example, that NC gets approval that their 1973 law does indeed apply to online auctions, then they could be free to go back and fine violators from many years ago.
I suppose the more appropriate title for this thread should have been "You MAY need an auction license to sell on aBay NOW".
posted on October 23, 2000 11:12:31 AM new
You might not live in NC or NH, but what if you ship or sell something to someone that lives there? Wouldn't you need that license to do that (if it comes to getting licenses for those states)
posted on October 23, 2000 11:41:00 AM new
IN REPLY TO PROBATOR: I AGREE WITH WHAT YOU ARE SAYING ALL THE WAY...BUT HERE IS THE UNFORTUNATE THING: YES E-BAY WILL IN TIME HAVE TO MAKE A VERY BIG BUSINESS DECISION ONE DAY...IF THEY WILL HOLD THE LICENCES, OR WORK IT OUT THAT THE SELLER HOLDS A LICENSE..EITHER WAY THE SELLER LOOSES....(IN A WAY)...THE SELLER WILL ONCE AGAIN HAVE MONEY TAKEN OUT OF THEIR POCKETS...BUT ON THE UPSIDE...IT WILL WEED OUT SOME OF THE TRASH ON E-BAY...WHICH IN TURN WILL MAKE IT BETTER FOR THE HONEST SELLERS...SURE THERE WILL BE SOME CROOKS THAT KNOW HOW TO SLIP THRU THE CRACKS...BUT DON'T YOU THINK IT WOULD BE A LOT EASIER TO CATCH THEM...."IT'S A LOT EASIER TO SPOT A ROTTEN APPLE IN A SMALL BOWL, THAN IN A BIG BUSHEL BASKET"...
AS FAR AS E-BAY CALLING THEMSELVES A TRADING COMMUNITY....THE WORD BID IS ON EVERY AUCTION....NOT TRADE....ALSO EVEN IF THEY CHANGE THE WORD BID TO TRADE...ANYTIME YOU HAVE COMPETITIVE BIDDING)...IT IS STILL CONSIDERED AN AUCTION....SO INSTEAD OF CALLING A SPADE A SPADE...E-BAY IS CALLING THEIR SPADE A SHOVEL..
SO WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO IS, E-BAY IS GREAT ON PLAYING ON WORDS...(FOR NOW)...I CAN'T SAY THAT I BLAME THEM...(THE OLD EXPRESION GOES)..GET IT WHILE THE GETTING IS GOOD...
IN THE LONG RUN, IN TIME ALL THAT IS TRYING TO BE ACCOMPLISHED WITH THE LICENSE THING IS TO PUT SOME KIND OF LAW AND ORDER TO THIS NEW WAY OF SELLING (ONLINE)...YES THE GOVERNMENT WILL AS USUALL GET A PIECE OF THE PIE)..BUT SELLERS NEED TO SEE THE GOOD SIDE OF THIS: ANYTIME YOU HAVE LAWS TO GO BY IN A BUSINESS THIS WILL HELP ALL THE SELLERS...IT WILL HELP GET RID OF THE CROOKS....BIDDERS WILL HAVE MORE TRUST IN BIDDING....AND ALL THAT CAN DO IS HELP WITH THE BIDS...ALSO YOU HAVE THE LAW TO PROTECT YOU AS A SELLER FROM THE DEAD BEAT BIDDERS...(ALL YOU HAVE NOW IS NEGATIVE FEEDBACK, AND A WARNING FROM E-BAY)...I THINK I WOULD RATHER HAVE THE HARD EARNED MONEY THAT IS DUE TO ME...
IT WON'T HURT THE MOM & POP BUSINESS (AUCTIONS)...IT CAN ONLY HELP IT...YES ONE WAY OR ANOTHER THE SELLER WILL HAVE TO PAY MORE...BUT IF IT HELPS IN GETTING THE BIDS UP, (YOU WILL MORE THAN MAKE THE MONEY BACK)..
ON BEHALF OF THE BUYERS: IT SURE WOULD BE NICE NOT TO HAVE TO WRITE A SELLER TO SEE WHAT THEY REALLY ARE SAYING IN THEIR AUCTIONS BEFORE THEY BID....BIDDING WITH CONFIDENCE IS THE ONLY WAY IT SHOULD BE...NOT ALWAYS LOOKING AT..: "LET THE BUYER BEWARE"...
I WILL END THIS WITH: THERE IS WAY TO MANY SELLERS WHO RUIN IT FOR US HONEST SELLERS...BUT THE HONEST SELLERS WILL SURVIVE THIS LICENSE THING...BECAUSE WE HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE...
posted on October 23, 2000 11:59:15 AM new
I don't know, I've been to one brick and mortar auction in my town, and have had bad expierences with them.
There is an auctioneer up there (or was) that didn't know half the stuff he was auctioning. Sure you can preview, but sometimes we came late.
And after going a few times we noticed definite shillers in a certain row each week. It was blatantly obvious what was going on between them and the auctioneer.
And this was no 'low class' auction house either. It was a very nice one.
And there is the policy: When registering to be a bidder, you need to place you CC with them, and there is absolutley no returns.
So, if your previewing and thier is a sticker on the piece, for the auction # there could be a chip in the piece, (happened before) and you are SOL.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:14:54 PM new
ShellyHerr:
If your bad experience had happened in NC, you could have filed a complaint and gotten a refund.
Misrepresentation of merchandise is a seious offense there.
Also, licensed auctioneers maintain a Statewide Recovery fund, and anybody who has been ripped-off by an NC auctioneer is entitled to make a claim against this fund.
You may not like regulation, but the bidders in NC always get treated fairly or they get their money back, guaranteed.
The recovery funds are another reason I support licensing. Too bad there are not more buyers in this forum.
[ edited by probater on Oct 23, 2000 12:40 PM ]
posted on October 23, 2000 12:31:23 PM new
Well next time on vacation in the OBX I'll have to find an auction there!
But I do have to ask you probater, what you said before about credit.
I do not have stellar credit, but not trashed credit either! I've owned home and land, and have 3 credit cards, car payments etc. However you said that the auction license board required very good credit. Why is this? What if the bad credit came from, say medical bills that your med. ins. co didn't pay? One of those unexpected illnesses or an accident, happens to a lot of people, and they didn't do these things on purpose! I don't think I'm off topic in asking this, because you did bring it up as I believe you said it was a requirment for the Auction Board.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:45:53 PM new
ShellyHerr,
I am not privy to how NC makes their denial decisions, but they do the credit check to identify people who cannot, or will not, pay their bills on time.
They believe, as I do, that financial responsibility is completely within a person's control.
People with slow payment records are either overextended (poor cashflow skills) or irresponsbile (another personality flaw).
Since sellers handle many thousands of dollars of other peoples money (just like ebay sellers), NC reqires that anyone entrusted to handle other folks money have good credit.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:57:07 PM new
And so let's say a small antique dealer, or comic store, or widget retailer, is located in NC next door to the mom and pop eBay seller that you want to regulate via a $200 license and a B&M auction exam.
The antique dealer (or comic seller or widget retailer) sets up a web site with shopping cart, and starts selling goods, accepting people's money.
Why do you think that these folks are less deserving of government overregulation than the mom and pop eBay seller?
Both sell stuff, and accept other's money, and ship product. There is really no difference.
Trying to license online auction sellers is an absurd proposition. It will benefit nobody, save the regulator's coffers.
There are plenty of fraud statutes on the books that prohibit fleecing buyers. Let's use 'em, and not look to government to solve our problems with further regulatory nonsense.
Online auction sellers are not "auctioneers" within the meaning of the old B&M licensing laws.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:59:27 PM new
"People with slow payment records are either overextended (poor cashflow skills) or irresponsbile (another personality flaw)."
We rented and then sold our old house to a person with bad credit. She filed for bancrupcy, but then decided not to go through with it, and paid off all her creditors over a number of years. We let her rent the house we wanted to sell (yes, we thought about it alot before we went ahead with it). A year later, she had repaired her credit enough to buy it from us.
I truly admire her! I have learned that bad credit does not make an irresponsible person.
Besides, probater, as you state,
"Since sellers handle many thousands of dollars of other peoples money (just like ebay sellers), NC reqires that anyone entrusted to handle other folks money have good credit. "
But, the money that ebay sellers are handling is their own at the time they get it (unless they are selling on consignment for someone). So that doesn't apply to ebay selling, sorry.
posted on October 23, 2000 12:59:57 PM new
Toollady,
I lobby extensively with State and Federal legislators in support of equal treatment for all internet sellers.
I am currently working to get more States involved in applying their existing Interstate Commerce Laws to eBay sales.
I also work with thousands of licensed real-world retailers who demand that eBay sellers held held to the same standards of quality as any other sellers.
They are sick of internet sellers getting special treatment, and exemptions from the recognized standards for fairness.
We are quite strong, and gaining momentum rapidly.
posted on October 23, 2000 01:04:41 PM new
magazine_guy:
"Online auction sellers are not "auctioneers" within the meaning of the old B&M licensing laws."
Bob H. thinks they are, and so does their attorney. The lawyer has some very compelling caselaw supporting his agreement that their 1973 laws do apply to electronic commerce.
posted on October 23, 2000 01:17:59 PM new
If Bob H's attorney's briefs were so compelling, the government would not have become involved.
And, just as Bob H's attorney has "case law" substantiating their position, the sellers of NC can just as easily get an attorny to pull "case law" to substantiate our position.
As the law is written now, it does not apply to the internet. That is why this was given to the IT committee to evaluate and put a new law on the books, if applicable.
And as is the case in most of the South, it will not be looked at any time soon.
Bob H knows where to find me. He has my name, address, and telephone number
If he truly felt I fell under his jurisdiction, he could have come gunning for me. What better way to make his point, than to topple an outspoken seller in these forums?
posted on October 23, 2000 01:37:21 PM new
toolady:
One of he tenets of lobbying is to go to the right place.
For example, I heard that some dopey woman at a past Auction Board hearing made a complete jackass of herself by demonstrating complete ignorance of the Laws regarding consignment of merchandise. It did more harm than good, and showed everyone in the room how ignorant and dangerous unlicensed sellers can be.
Organized lobbies get support from large voting groups and go directly to the legislators.
In Arkansas, for example, I manage effective lobbies that are the fruit of years of contacts and personal friendships.
posted on October 23, 2000 01:45:21 PM new
If one were to lobby for (or against) something, it seems to me that a good working knowledge of the subject would be required, at least if one hoped to be an effective lobbyist. It also seems to me that 3 months is hardly enough time to accumulate that knowledge when considering that one was starting from a point of knowing nothing about the subject to begin with.
posted on October 23, 2000 01:48:10 PM new
This thread reminds me of our homeowners association... The busy bodies like to try and keep track of how many garage sales you have in a year and then snitch on you for running an unlicense business if you have more then two.
Here is a another Sky is Falling law. In California it is illegal to buy used goods for resale w/o getting positive ID. All such stores that buy used Records, Books, Jeans, etc. are classified as pawn shops, and have to be registered with the police, and keep a log book of what they buy and who they buy it from.
If you buy and don't keep a log everything you buy is assumed stolen, and you can be arrested for dealing in stolen property. This has been a very effective tool for chain record stores to put mom&pop used record stores out of business. But the reality is that most stores don't keep logs. Only Santa Monica, and San Francisco are really militant about enforcement. In most other areas stores only enforce it when the seller fits a "profile" (young or wrong skin color).
Then we could get into the money laundering laws for you people who deal in coins, silver, gold, stamps, and jewerly.
From a strict legal interpretation... most seller and even many buyers are criminals.
The reason why most of these laws are not enforced is money... The Government is like Ebay, it wants to make money. It costs about $70,000 to bring a felony case to court. In large urban areas it is very hard to get DA to take victimless crimes that are not "sexy" (sex, drugs, guns)... and in more rural areas they might not want to the negative press for arresting some Granny for auctioning her needlepoint on Ebay.
The other reality is that the people of this country have a history of just ignoring laws that try and micro-manage their lives (55 mph speed limit, marijuana laws, assault weapon ban in california, use taxes).
On the other hand I can see the Internet becoming an virtual police state where every special interest group is running snooper enginers to search out and reporting their pet peeves, and the government seeing an increase in V-Crime will increase the taxes to investigate... Would make for a nice vicious circle effect until we all locked out of the on-line market place by high pay to play fees.
