posted on October 23, 2000 01:57:30 PM new
I think licensing is just a scam that the govt uses to collect money and to make naive people think that they're really doing something to protect them.
If I send $2000 to a seller across the country for a computer and he doesn't send it to me, I'm screwed. If I complain to the postal inspector, they'll have me fill out a complaint form and then it'll be filed away. If I complain to the police, they'll have me fill out a complaint form and then it'll be filed away. If I complain to the licensing board, they'll have me fill out a complaint form and then it'll be filed away. No group has the money or manpower to investigate every complaint and none of them will do anything until enough people complain. Once enough people complain then the police and/or postal inspectors will get involved whether or not licensing is required.
Licensing will just cause prices to rise for buyers. Before Ebay, I was paying dealer prices for most of the items that I collect. Once Ebay came along, I was frequently paying 10 or 20% of dealer prices. That's because the majority of Ebay sellers are simply hobbyists getting rid of their duplicate items and people cleaning out their basements and attics. They see a widget selling for $100, realize they have a widget in their attic and decide they'll sell theirs, too. Now, instead of all the widget collectors bidding on the few widgets being sold by dealers, they now have dozens of widgets to bid on and the prices drop drastically. Of course, if licensing is required those hobbyists and homeowners aren't going to go to the time and expense of becoming licensed. And, once again, we'll be paying dealer prices. Great for the dealers - not so great for the buyers.
I joined Ebay years ago when it was known as "AuctionWeb" and I've bought hundreds of items on Ebay. How many times have I been cheated? Just once for $40. So, I don't think licensing is needed. I think the biggest need is for people to use common sense. Don't buy a $2000 computer from someone with little or no feedback. If someone is offering an autographed Michael Jordan basketball for $20 don't buy it! It's fake!
posted on October 23, 2000 02:14:36 PM new
The other issue is that it is generally recognized that a private citizen has the right to sell off their unwanted property. In fact that City of Los Angeles just lost a lawsuit where they try to prohibit the "forsale signs" on parked cars.
So in order to get around licensing people will just state that every is their personal unwanted property (I bought it this moring at a garage sale, and now I don't want it). If the regulators decide to play hardball, it will just cause an explosion in multiple IDs.
Ebay could require positive ID before you can list, but that would just cause a lot of us to move to yahoo, or to an offshore site.
The Genie is out the bottle, the paste is out of the tube, etc.
posted on October 23, 2000 02:54:05 PM new
I've not seen Bob's briefs. Not my thing. But I digress...
But I have spoken with Bob Hamilton of the NC licensing board, with their attorney who formed the opinion that the old B&M auction licensing laws applied to regular online auction sellers. I posted the results of those discussions, and my contacts with the NC IT chair, and many others here during discussions on this topic last December and January. And it seems, the more I read your posts, that you're merely reading these old threads, and taking selected bits and pieces out of context to suit your own agenda, whatever that is.
Probater, if you seriously have input on this topic, please email me (you can forward any briefs you'd like).
And if you ever decide to become an auctioneer, please consider joining the OAUA!
posted on October 23, 2000 03:43:44 PM new
One of the problem I see with this being handled on a State basis is that
Rules and regulations can vary from one State to another.
As a result what may be deemed needed by one State does not mean that
Other States will feel the same way.
One of the things that can be so frustrating about this country is that what you expect to be law in one State is not such in another.
Example in Ohio to do a U-turn is breaking the Law, however in most
Cases here in Florida it is allowed.
So if anything this should be handled on a National not a State level.
I really doubt that licensing will really make a big difference in the
Fraud that has been referenced too here.
People have a drivers license but they still break the law,when they see fit.It is not a deterrent that makes them think wow I have a license therefore I need to follow all the rules of the road.
I wish it did work that way our insurance would be a lot less than it is.
Probater.
Do the people you are associated with make a note of individuals
That are selling online within the State of NC ?
Plus do they send out emails to such alerting them that they maybe in
Violation of the NC Auction Board rules. That they need to get a license
And that a failure to do so can result in a fine or a jail term ?
Started using a spell checker for a change can’t you tell ?
posted on October 23, 2000 03:52:27 PM new
So why Ebay? Why not:
1) Trust Mills
2) Multi-Level Marketing
3) Stock Pumpers & Dumpers
4) Porn Sites that offer "free trials" but require a CC and charge it anyways.
Historically... there have alot of cases of people who target an industry for reform, claiming "public good" but who are really just looking to boost their own profile.
Someone who makes a name for themselves attacking the auction industry could become as famous as that guy who forced the the creation of the comics code. Or that great sideshow of the 50's McCarthy & Cohn HUAC.
All you need are a few widows, cripples and orphans for a classic yellow journalism media circus.
If you really "served on the faculties of several major Universities" my guess is that your a lawyer or law professor looking for some issue to make a name for yourself for tenure, senior partnership, elected office.
Boy... the on-line auction biz could be the next "big Tobacco".
posted on October 23, 2000 03:57:02 PM new
This stupid subject came up last year. Ebay is performing for me the same service any auction house would, I only bring them the product.
NOW, for those who think you just walk up and get an auction license, should that ever be an issue, in most states, it takes schooling, state testing, etc. Some states also require an apprenticeship. I would imagine it would eliminate about 90% of the current sellers.
posted on October 23, 2000 03:59:23 PM newI do, however, have a great empathy for the victims of eBay fraud and the nasty sellers who prey upon buyers.
I avocate putting all such people in jail, or worse...
but leave the good guys alone. Justice is not served by making life more difficult for ordinary good guys.
posted on October 23, 2000 04:00:03 PM new
ShellyHerr:
What I gather from that thread is:
1) Troll and/or
2) Lawyer seeing on-line auctions as a vast virgin territory to be exploited and strip mined.
3) Upset at lack of respect we have for the professional, and we are going to be made to pay.
posted on October 23, 2000 04:14:03 PM new
[i]Plus do they send out emails to such alerting them that they maybe in
Violation of the NC Auction Board rules. That they need to get a license
And that a failure to do so can result in a fine or a jail term ?[/i]
That would be Auction Interference under eBay's rules, no?
:\\\"Crystalline Sliver cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
posted on October 23, 2000 05:30:05 PM new
Given that ebay has many millions of users, any attempt by a state agency to 'touch' sellers would affect thousands, in some states 100s of thousands of ordinary people. That would be a public relations gaffe of enormous proportions. Politicians know what butters their bread at election time, and they're not going to let anything like this to go forward. Just because it got a little further in NC than elsewhere doesn't mean it won't get slapped down by someone with sense.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:38:23 PM new
In my opinion probater read the thread from Dec 1999 that I found in storage while I was cleaning. In my opinion probater saw an opportunity to stur up the eBay message board community.
So far in my opinion probater has not proven anything he/she has posted. He/she doesn't answer questions, IMO.
Probater stated "I possess a profesional degree and I have served on the faculties of several major Universities."
If you do have a "professional degree" what is it? Is it an associate's degree? Or BS? What universities did you serve on their faculties. Why so many?
You have been confronted with challenges to prove what you have posted. So far IMO you have not proven what you have posted about yourself and as far as I am concerned what you have posted is not to believed.
posted on October 23, 2000 06:39:41 PM new
I agree that ebaY or other parties are not likely to let this happen at least the
way it has been suggested.
If all of a sudden a seller is required to have an auction license then their would be a
major drop in items listed on ebaY.Plus with the demand that this would create for
a license are these auction schools able to handle the work load this would create.
These schools are only run a few times a year and have limited seating availability.
Plus it has been stated that 80% of the items listed on ebaY are listed by 20% of
the sellers on ebaY.
Such a move would cause a drastic drop in quarterly profits for ebaY and therefore
hurt the stock value.If you think it's down at this time just wait and see what this
would do to it.
This would affect the small investor,all the mutual fund companies.
I cannot see this being allowed to happen as it would possibly have a negative
impact on the growth of the Internet as a whole,if you looked at the whole picture.
It would affect the stock price of Yahoo,Amazon and other online companies further.
I think the whole picture needs to be examined not just a small portion of it.
It would also have an impact on the profit of the USPS and other industries
associated with ebaY.
It could put people like myself and others out of business till we could comply
and maybe even force individuals back on the unemployment line.
EbaY is a new business model and old laws may or may not apply,if needed
make changes in these.That will make it easy for sellers to comply and also
that will protect the customer.
My Bro. is in a similar situation in England,he totally created a new industry
that others are following.However no knows exactly what rules and regs apply
to this business.Rather than force old laws that would be impossible to comply.
The legislative body involved with these old laws have seen fit to contact him
and consider his suggestions as to how these should be interpreted.
That way the law apply's without damaging a fledgling industry and all can work
along with.
Should not the same consideration be given to ebaY and sellers and buyers
involved.
posted on October 24, 2000 07:47:19 PM new
raygomez
When I cam here in 85 by Bro was here for thr wedding.My wifes uncles owned a lawn care business.
They showed him the ropes and he went home with it and started a new service industry.
He was the first in the country with the idea.15 years later its multi-franchised and worth about 100 mill.
He started it on nothing.So standard laws regarding fertilizers and weed killers where for farming.So adjustments are being made by all concerned to cover and still not stifle this industry.
In fact one of the largest suppliers of lawn fertilizers in the World had starting see a drop in the demand for thier product.They could not figure out why till they did some detective work and it pointed to him.
He is the largest end user of fertilizer in the UK.
posted on October 25, 2000 05:40:01 AM new
Yes, Ebay said they are not the auctioneers. And Microsoft said they were not a monopoly, Clinton said he never had sex with her, and Nixon never told a lie...
To attempt to regulate the online auction industry at a "seller" level would be impossible. They (The Government, whether state or federal) would have to determine the intent of each auction. Is the product a personal possession or a resale item. Is the seller a business or an individual. Are they in the US or another country, in which case they would be beyond regulation.
The only logical and enforcable way to regulate or extract taxes from the online auction industry is to regulate and tax the site. In this case Ebay.
By requiring a Credit Card to register as a seller, Ebay has demonstrated the ability to screen and verify sellers.
By charging the FVF, Ebay has proven they have a vested interest in the sale of the product. (unlike a classified ad)
By launching the VERO program, Ebay has demonstrated the ability to monitor the site (provided additional employees are hired to handle the volume) and control the content of the site.
By offering their Fraud Protection and Buyer Guarantees, Ebay has assumed responsibility for the Authenticity of all products sold on their site. (Quote from Ebay site: "such as winning a solid gold necklace at auction but receiving a copper one instead"
By accepting "Instant Payments" through "BillPoint" they have closed the sale for the auction.
So Let's look at this again ...
Ebay screens the sellers before they can list an item. They decide what can and cannot be sold through the VERO program. They guarantee the transaction through their Insurance program. They accept and process proxy bids on behalf of the bidders. They charge a commision on the final sale price. And in some cases (if BillPoint is used) they prepare and send an invoice to the buyer and collect the money.
Now if that isn't the exact definition of an "Auctioneer" than we need a new dictionary.
posted on October 25, 2000 07:09:55 AM new
If thats case than every body that sells stuff on the radio and news Papers will need a licence to.Is this not true.What are they going to do fine all these folks for selling.I dont thik they can do this.What do you think?
posted on October 25, 2000 12:18:12 PM new
I know everyone here cals me a troll, but sometime next year you will see that I was right.
Someone must accept responsibility for the auction dealing on ebay, and it is going to either be the sellers or eBay itself.
Sooner or later, a Judge somewhere is going to rule on this matter . . .
Again, I predict that eBay will win their venue-only argument, and the courts will order the sellers to comply with the Laws of their States regarding auction sales.
I know that nobody want's to hear this, but I see no other solution for the courts.
posted on October 25, 2000 01:06:19 PM new
This sounds like an LA Law rerun. What is the definition of "venue?" I don't have Webster's handy at the moment. We attend horse sale auctions occassionally and the auction houses act as agents only, they collect a fee just to offer items for the sellers. If it's an animals, a flat rate. If it's inanimate objects (tack,etc.) it's 10%. Therefore, they collect $15 on each animal offered whether or not it is sold. They collect 10 percent at point of sale if inanimate items are sold. I see absolutely no difference between this type of auction and the ebay "venue." I think we need to determine the definition of "venue."(Tennessee). [email protected]
) ^^