posted on December 30, 2000 08:54:58 AM new
For quite some time, I have been posting my thoughts on AuctionWatch concerning:
- The proliferation of illegal video tapes being sold on eBay,
- The fact that even after several reports to SafeHarbour about two particular sellers who continue to list and sell illegal homemade copies of a specific television series, eBay has refused to take any action,
- The fact that even after I provided names of organizations that eBay may contact to verify my statements, they have not done so,
- The fact that eBay ended my auction for the commercially released tapes of this exact same television series, and suspended my account citing listing of ‘potentially’ infringing items without making any prior contact to ask me about my item ... their so-called "investigation".
Yesterday, while scanning the listings, I noted that one of these sellers has again listed his illegal tapes. I have contacted this seller in the past (under a different ID due to his retaliation efforts!) to give him a ‘heads-up’ that he is violating the law and eBay policy, yet he continues to list and sell his homemade tapes on eBay for large sums of money.
Last night, I emailed eBay SafeHarbour and the seller (again) to report this illegal activity. I do not expect eBay to take the real "appropriate action" this time either - they don’t seem to be interested in investigating this seller, nor do they have sufficient knowledge to make a decision as to whether or not the item is legal (yet they decided that my listing was illegal without contacting me!)
I have also invited the seller to come to AW to discuss his activities on eBay.
This morning, I received this email from Michelle, AW Moderator:
Hello XXXXX, Thank you for CCing your invitation as per the AW Community Guidelines. You are welcome to start the thread with or without identifying the Seller in question. If you do post the scenario with non specific information, the thread can remain open during the next 24 hours. Alternatively, you may post the identifying information and I will lock the thread for the 24 hour waiting period and re-open at this time tomorrow night. Because the Moderators do not have access to your registered information, to ensure the final requirement of the CGs is met and the discussion may go ahead, please forward your full name, address and contact telephone number to [email protected] Thank you for your cooperation. MichelleG AuctionWatch Moderator
Thanks Michelle. I have forwarded my personal info to you via email as requested.
Here goes …
The television series is "V". This series aired in the mid-80’s and consisted of 19 one hour episodes.
Prior to the television series, two separate mini-series were released on commercial tape: "V" - The Original Mini-Series", issued on a 2-tape set by Warner Home Video, and "V" - The Final Battle", issued on a 3-tape set by Warner Home Video.
Columbia House subsequentally issued the 19 one-hour episodes of the television series on a total of 10 tapes as part of their "re-tv Collector’s Series". This Collector's Series was recorded in SP and was provided in custom bookshelf plastic cases with artwork, episode descriptions, cast lists, air dates, etc.
This Collectors Series is still being marketed by Columbia House. Each tape in the series runs around $30.00 (including S&H), and it takes 10 months to complete the collection.
My auction, that was ended by eBay citing 'potential' copyright infringement was for 15 tapes - the two commercially released Warner Home Video mini-series’ and the 10 tape Columbia House Collector’s Series. All of the tapes in my listing were for the original, factory released tapes. That is, they were NOT COPIES or "potentially" infringing on anything. Unfortunately, as eBay has suspended my account and ended my auction, my listing no longer appears in their database.
I am the first time purchaser of all of the above tapes, although this is really not an issue (except in eBay's opinion??)
The current auction that I have been trying to get eBay to end is ID #1401486925. Note that the description of this item states the following:
"NOTE: THIS AUCTION IS "PRIVATE" (yet all other items listed by this seller are not "private". He is obviously trying to hide something here. I suspect he knows his activities violate copyright law and eBay policy, and he is trying to protect himself and his buyers who will be equally prosecuted by the MPAA)
"I GOT THIS TWO TAPE SET ... FROM MY BEST FRIEND WHO SHOWS THIS COLLECTOR TWIN TAPE SET AT HIS SCI FI CLUB IN MONTREAL, CANADA. HE DOESN'T WANT THIS SET ANYMORE BECAUSE HE GOT A FRENCH VERSION AND SO HE SENT ME THIS ENGLISH US-VHS VERSION." (this seller has sold the same ‘set’ of tapes several times on eBay!)
"THIS AUCTION IS A COMPLETE AUCTION OF ALL 19 EPISODES SO THE WINNER GETS ALL OF THEM ON TWO 8 HOUR TAPES." (very obviously home made, very low quality EP copies)
My point?
To once again illustrate that eBay is not able to effectively police their site, even with help,
To answer those questions from other AW posters about the auction specifics that I have been hinting at, and who have been insulting me for whining about my unjust treatment by eBay,
To once again prove that eBay DOES have a double standard - they suspend me, yet they allow this other seller to continue. He has a much higher rating than I ever had and is a seller (generates money for eBay) where I was primarily a buyer.
posted on December 30, 2000 09:12:34 AM new
RB,
Wow, I would be angry and frustrated. It definitely sounds as though something is reeking here. I would keep trying, RB. This situation is totally unfair. When you get an unsatisfactory response, request a higher level person to review this. Above all, don't give up. It's the principle.
posted on December 30, 2000 09:25:23 AM new
If you are contacting the bidders (as the "someone" alleged in the auction listing) I would suggest that you stay within the rules, and simply tell the copyright owners of the auction if Ebay is not going to take any notice. That is all you can do. It is then up to them to take action, or not. If they decide to go for a copyright infringement, I am sure that Ebay, or the seller, will have to give them the buyer's names.
It's nice to give a "heads up", but let's not get obsessive.
If you want to keep selling on Ebay, just re-register, and don't bother them with your new ID.
posted on December 30, 2000 09:31:13 AM new
Maybe its time to invoke that FBI warning that is found at the front of tapes. Remember, the fence is just as guilty as the person stealing.
posted on December 30, 2000 09:33:43 AM new
I can't alert the bidders - the auction is 'private'. But, I can almost guarantee you that at least one of these buyers will come here complaining about the garbage copies s/he got someday, and ask why doesn't eBay do something about these sellers
The only person I have alerted, other than SafeHarbour, is the seller. The first couple of times he listed this item, I sent him very polite 'friendly warnings' that his item was illegal and that the MPAA is watching. He acknowledged my first email with a "thanks for the heads-up". After he sold the first set then listed it again, I sent him a 2nd email suggesting that I would alert SafeHarbour. Immediately after that, my inbox mysteriously filled up with hundreds of invitations to join sex-oriented sites!
The only person who can take action is eBay - they have shown that, for some reason, they do not consider this item a problem ...
posted on December 30, 2000 10:17:52 AM new
RB, you're only telling half the story. The auction that eBay ended, the one that led to your suspension, stated "copy down my email address so that if eBay ends this auction, you can contact me and purchase from me direct." That is a clear violation of eBay's "no direct-sale" policy. With a description like that, you were practically daring eBay to end the auction. This was most likely a repeat offense since eBay doesn't suspend without issuing a warning first.
You have alerted the seller and eBay, and I would suggest for your own mental health and mine that you drop this subject finally. I understand your anger at what you perceive to be an unfair suspension, but what you failed to mention in your post is that eBay has offered to reinstate you if you will only provide documentation that your tapes are legal. All you need to do is send eBay a scan of the tape label, yet you continue to drag this issue on and on.
Let me explain eBay's policy. eBay doesn't "investigate" copyright violations. They only listen to complaints from the copyright holder. I know because I've reported other sellers too. But in your case, the issue was not copyrights, but your repeated attempts to circumvent eBay's fees. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Now you are seeking revenge on eBay by dragging some other seller here and relying on AW posters to provide the tar and feathers. I'm not in the mood for a smear campaign based on your half-truths. I am sorry this happened to you but I wish you would let it go.
It has just come to my attention that your post includes an auction number. Because of this specific identifying information, I must lock this thread until the 24-hour period has passed or until we hear from the seller that he/she is ready to participate in the discussion, whichever comes first.
I reviewed the auction. It does look suspicious. Even though I watched "V" from the premiere the end I would not purchase the tapes from the seller based on their description and lack of pictures.
Recently I "stumbled" upon a seller from outside the USA that had auctions selling pictures of topless females with posing. He was billing the subjects as "girls." In my opinion people see what they want to see and with the power of suggestion they would think they were buying topless pictures of "girls."
The pictures on the auction site from what I could tell were adult women, though.
The seller also had a item with a sketch of two little girls kissing -that was innocent such as "precious moments" or "holly hobby"- but his wording suggested something else.
To make a long story short I reported the seller and eBay promptly shut down the topless pictures, not the little girls kissing. I disagree but what can I do?
So then the next day I again "stumbled" upon yet another seller this time was within the USA who had vintage topless women items.
EBay told me with the second one was that if the pictures showed genetials than they would be shut down. I immediately emailed the closed auctions asking then why were these closed? The response was that the pictures were already disconnected from the auctions.
The responders were different people so I figured it is like here at AW (the moderators) it all depends on who you contact and their interpretation of the rules/guidelines.
BTW all auctions were available to all viewers of eBay -including children- which was another point I had mentioned to eBay.
EDITED TO ADD: In my opinion the auctions could have been billboards for perverts to contact the seller to find out what he/she had in lines of child pics. Or maybe it was a sting operation too?
posted on December 31, 2000 02:23:22 PM newIn my opinion the auctions could have been billboards for perverts to contact the seller to find out what he/she had in lines of child pics.
Or maybe the seller was trying to scam the sicko's. They pay big bucks for what they think will be porn pics and get "Holly Hobby." Who is the buyer going to complain to??
posted on December 31, 2000 03:15:37 PM new
RB-Since these are illegal tapes can't you write Columbia House or Warner Home Video. I don't buy these things but I did copy a program off of PBS for my own use but I would never sell this because I know it would be illegal. On the tapes that you sold was their a FBI warning? Well, I think these tapes that you are talking about are illegal and should be reported to a higher authority than ebay. Columbia House and Warner Home Video had to pay royalities to beable to sell them. This seller is not paying royalities and I am sure that is illegal also. If this was me and I wanted to sell or buy on ebay I would certainly get another ID and a new credit card under spouses name but never use the cerdit card pay by money order only. Good Luck
posted on December 31, 2000 10:06:49 PM new
I wonder why ebay would have a policy of ending 'potential' copyright infringing items when they have a VERO program in place that is used to identify definite infringment?
It seems that they are creating an rather obtuse standard for copyright issues.
I understand that copyright enforcement cannot be tied to ebays VERO program, but if anyone other than the copyright owner complains how can that alone be construed as 'potential'?
Why are we bothering to act on behalf of copyright owners anyway? I would think that if they gave a hoot about it they would dedicate their own resources to protecting it.
Just some New Year musings.
posted on January 1, 2001 05:55:28 AM new
RB, I'm a bit confused and beginning to have some doubts on your posts. In another thread http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=307369 you gave a reason for your auctions to be ended and your suspension. That reason was hard to believe and if true a great injustice.
RBI included a "link" to my own email address ... eBay ended my auction AND suspended me, and this was the first time I had ever done this.
In this thread it is alleged that there is more to the story as indicated by another post.
twinsoft The auction that eBay ended, the one that led to your suspension, stated "copy down my email address so that if eBay ends this auction, you can contact me and purchase from me direct."
When someone tells me a story that is hard to believe and it is countered by another story that is more reasonable then it is hard to regain credibility. Can you clear up this great difference in two versions?
posted on January 1, 2001 05:55:31 AM new
I can't stand all the bootleg copies of movies being sold at ebays myself. I sometimes see the factory original of films like FINAL COUNTDOWN sell BELOW a bootleg video, a tape as described by the seller as " comes in a white box, recorded on stereo, no label on tape" description with no box art downloaded. Always claim they bought it at a convention!
Some bootlegs are even taped of cable, and it is unfortunate that you can't email the bidders to warn them for they can get you in trouble with ebays.
I think RB, could it be the seller you are reporting to perhaps told ebays about you, to avoid "real" competition, and somehow they listened to him over you?
posted on January 1, 2001 10:29:04 AM new
twelvepole ... Soon Come Man
libra63 ... "can't you write Columbia House or Warner Home Video."
I have done that, plus the MPAA. I expect one of these companies will put an end to this when they get back to work tomorrow.
"On the tapes that you sold was their a FBI warning?"
Not just on the video, but also on the labels. In addition, Columbia House has included their own statement on the packaging of these tapes that states: "Licensed only for non-commercial private exhibition in homes. Any public performance, other use, or copying is strictly prohibited. All rights under copyright reserved." (btw, I didn't sell my tapes ... eBay ended the auction before I could do that!)
"Well, I think these tapes that you are talking about are illegal"
No question about it. The series "V" is only available in one format which is the Columbia House versions (issued on 10 tapes in SP format). The seller, could of course, say that his tapes are copies of the series when it aired, but selling those for a profit would be just as illegal as selling dubs of the CH tapes.
eBay still continues to ignore the warnings. It is so obvious that this is a bootleg seller (he has sold the exact same set of "collector tapes" several times! How many of these did he get from his French friend???). It's also obvious why he listed this item as "private". It's not just me who has asked him to stop listing this illegal garbage.
Powerhouse ... "It seems that they are creating an rather obtuse standard for copyright issues."
My point exactly, and hence the title of this thread. There appears to be a very obvious double standard at work here. eBay knows nothing about copyrights and who owns most of them. They rely on their VeRO members to enforce the rules. At the same time, they ask their "community" to help them by reporting illegal items.
"I understand that copyright enforcement cannot be tied to ebays VERO program, but if anyone other than the copyright owner complains how can that alone be construed as 'potential'? "
Right On
uara ... I won't bother to respond to your comment - you have quoted twinsoft who has misquoted me. I never stated anything about 'direct sales'. Please re-read the other threads where this was discussed.
posted on January 1, 2001 11:06:38 AM new
Why people get worked up so much about what others are doing and feel they have to police the internet for everyone else.
Did you own the rights to the show? Suspect not. Take care of your own back yard, and stay out of others.
posted on January 1, 2001 11:10:32 AM new"uara ... I won't bother to respond to your comment - you have quoted twinsoft who has misquoted me. I never stated anything about 'direct sales'. Please re-read the other threads where this was discussed."
Can you provide a link to the 'other thread' I'm curious if there is more to your statement that you had your auctions pulled and were suspended simply because you provided an email link as per the thread I referenced.
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=307369 (4th post in that thread)
posted on January 1, 2001 11:11:53 AM newcelebrityskin, if you read the threads you will see it is mostly sourgrapes for this seller being suspended by eBay for offering direct sales in their auctions. Twinsoft has not misquoted the posts.
I am still waiting for proof...it's still "he said, she said" right now.
Ain't Life Grand...
posted on January 1, 2001 11:17:16 AM new
Celebrityskin- That is true but from what I gather RB was banned from ebay from trying to sell a legal tape and the ones he is talking about are illegal. Why should he be banned from ebay and the others not? From what I read he is trying to get reinstated and if everything is true he should be.
posted on January 1, 2001 11:27:58 AM new
I am worked up because eBay canceled my auction for the legal, factory released tapes of "V" citing 'potential' copyright infringement, yet they continue to allow an illegal auction for COPIES of the exact same series to continue. And, the seller in question has sold this 2-tape set several times on eBay for huge profits.
Would that not work you up just a bit too?
uaru ... I can't recall the exact words I used in my listing (eBay has removed it from their database), but I never used the words "direct sale". I simply suggested that as eBay had previously ended one of my auctions, that this auction could end at any time, and that lookers should print the listing just in case. When I added that statement to my description (it was not included in the original listing for this item), the item already had over 60 "looks" and no bids. I have found out from reading these forums that most eBay bidders wait until the last minute before placing a bid. I was trying to ensure a sale ... that's all. I honestly (really!) did not believe I was committing an eBay criminal offence by including that statement, particularily in light of all those listings that point to web sites where off-eBay purchases can be made.
On the 'proof' thing, what would YOU need to verify that everything I have said so far is 100% true??
I have not sold my "V" tapes, but I don't know how post 'proof' of that here.
I can point you to the Columbia House site where this series is still being offered for sale.
I can point you to an excellent fan-based site where the site owner (a very loyal "V'" fan) specifically states to his members that the ONLY way they can obtain legal, quality copies of this great cult sci-fi series is by joining the Columbia House video library (which is where I got my collection from).
posted on January 1, 2001 11:42:55 AM new
But RB, what can anyone do about sellers who sell bottlegs and "word" it so that unless you cant read, you dont realize it until you get the package that it is a blank tape,and most bidders in fear of getting a retalitory feedback if they negative the seller, thus saying "wonderful ebayer" and excelent rating, boosting these bootleggers feedback more. Look at ANY bootleggers feedback. All people say is "wonderful ebayer". It is a sad fact of life RB. ):
"LOOKERS - eBay has been canceling my legitimate auctions due to interference from another member. Therefore, THIS AUCTION MAY END AT ANY TIME. If you are seriously interested in this item, please print the listing so you can contact me in the event it is ended by eBay before you have an opportunity to place a bid. Thanks ..."
"RB, you're only telling half the story. The auction that eBay ended, the one that led to your suspension, stated "copy down my email address so that if eBay ends this auction, you can contact me and purchase from me direct." That is a clear violation of eBay's "no direct-sale" policy."
You are correct. However, eBay had previously ended an earlier auction of mine (several months ago) under identical circumstances. ...
posted on January 1, 2001 12:00:35 PM new
If Ebay cancels one of your auctions, and you continue to list the same item over and over agin, you are just looking for trouble.
posted on January 1, 2001 12:27:42 PM new
Glenda ... semantics
As I stated earlier, my intent was to get a sale. I suspected ebay would end my auction based on previous experience (there is "someone" out there who I have obviously pissed off, and who has been interfering with my auctions!), and the item had several looks with no bids when I appended that statement.
Bottom line though, is I unknowingly broke one of their rules. But, I did not use the term "direct sale" which is the term eBay seems to have a hangup with, and in my defence, I could not see the difference between my "link" and those that point to web sites offering off-eBay direct sales.
If this is why I was suspended, I understand.
celebrityskin ... the two listings were NOT for the same item The first one was for a single studio released "Not for Air" tape (ended as "potentially" infringing) and the 2nd was for the studio released "V" series ended for the same reason. Although the "Not For Air" tape may technically be against eBay policy, it is no different that the 300 or so Emmy tapes currently listed on eBay that also fall under the same eBay policy (more of the double standard thing here, it seems). This is a cut from their policy page:
"Why can't I sell most promotional items?
Each promotional item is a copyrighted work. When they initially are distributed they are not sold. They technically remain the property of the record company or the studio that distributed them. The radio stations, movie theatres, etc. that receive them are only licensed to use the promo materials for limited promotional purposes. They are prohibited from selling them or giving them away; the materials themselves often state right on them "Not For Sale." Demo videos are given to video stores so they can decide how many copies of a particular video title they want to buy. Such demo or "screener" videos often say on the package and on screen "Not for Sale or Rental." Movie studios virtually never permit the sale of movie trailers. If your item has such warning language it is probably an infringement to list it on eBay. Sale or distribution of "awards" videos, such as Academy Awards or Emmy Awards promotional "screeners," is considered by movie and television studios to be a copyright infringement.
