posted on September 22, 2000 09:18:44 AM new
Fred,
I don't know what to make of them, but from their website comes this definition of a fighter pilot:
"A fighter pilot is noted for intelligence, independence, integrity, courage, and patriotism. "Fighter Pilot" is a
state of mind, not a job title. Therefore, not all people who fly fighters are fighter pilots, nor do all fighter pilots fly fighters, some of them drive trucks".
posted on September 22, 2000 09:18:56 AM new
Puckey? Durham? Toro Toro Toro.
We are all a product of what we know first hand and what the media tells us.
The Vietnam era was literally a nightmare for this whole country and especially a certain teenager growing up.
It is ludicrous, 30 years later to lay blame on one young woman that was trying her best, maybe not the best way in hindsight, to expose governments and what they were doing to their nations and people.
(I gotta get moving and doing something--this arguement has no answers. It will probably be the end of the world as we know it if KRS and I ever agree on anything--but hope springs eternal.)
posted on September 22, 2000 09:26:14 AM new
A certain teenager who doesn't Remember the news photos from 1972. Fonda was watching North Vietnamese soldiers operating an antiaircraft gun.She was clapping,a wide grin on her face. Fonda had flown over to assist the war effort—the North Vietnamese war effort. She even had the temerity to sit at the controls of an anti-aircraft gun and smile as she peered through the sight as if she saw a U.S. F-105 flying into view.
In a book written by North Vietnam General Vo Nguyen Giap, commander of NVA forces, he made it very clear that North Vietnamese morale was virtually gone until they heard through American media about protests, about American "defeats" and ultimately received protesters such as Fonda into their midst. The war may well have ended in 1968 -- at which time we had lost ten thousand men instead of the 50,000 we ultimately lost. But the North Vietnamese found the hope to press on. Let there be no doubt that Fonda, among many others, indirectly aided in theunnecessary deaths of thousands of US Soldiers by giving comfort to our enemies And all she has to offer is a stammering apology.
posted on September 22, 2000 09:42:24 AM new
Dang---KRS--again media is giving pictures to us to look at and interpret.
There were thousands upon thousands of humans killed--yes-- some were American.
Young men and women--soldiers and civilians slaughtered--for what?
It has come to this--to harrangue Jane Fonda on a chat board?
posted on September 22, 2000 09:51:46 AM new
Fonda said this recently "I will go to my grave regretting the photo ... which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes,"
"It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless. I wasn't thinking ... It hurt so many soldiers."
Jeanyu, why are you cutting her more slack than she cuts herself?
posted on September 22, 2000 10:00:59 AM new
Everyone of us has done things in our youth that we have come to regret later in life---it's part of the learning process. (Thank goodness--it's not part of a national media circus.) And to acknowledge that mistakes were made is going a long way to understanding of self and a healing. That's it.
posted on September 22, 2000 10:11:14 AM new
krs, To them it does. Why not ask them? Better yet, why not start a thread as to what it would relate to.
Have you ever been a fighter pilot in Vietnam?
Some F4 ( a comination of a fighter & bomber) pilots, would say putting any attack fighter, through flack produced by anti-aircraft weapons ( such as the one Fonda had her picture taken with) would be like driving a truck in NY City, during rush hour, when delivering a pay load, at low altitude.
Fighter Pilots are a different breed of cats. God bless them.
posted on September 22, 2000 10:24:57 AM new
Fred,
Are you a member of that organization? And were you a fighter pilot anywhere? From what I can see, there is no relation between that organization and any fighter unit which flew during Vietnam.
Instead it's an Air Force reunion group, originally formed by some pilots who had to fly at least one mission over Vietnam and has now grown to some 4,000 members, pilots or not pilots, with the purpose of focusing on aid to family members of pilots lost in any conflict.
Commendable, to be sure, but not really on point here.
posted on September 22, 2000 10:38:30 AM new
(Warning: Preachy post ahead.)
What bothers me to no end and truly affects my outlook in life, is the ability of bad people to prosper despite public knowledge of their deeds. If what has been written here about Jane Fonda is true -- and it certainly has the ring of truth, as presented -- she ought to be living in the streets, begging on a street corner for a scrap of bread. Instead she's Jane Fonda, actress! Jane Fonda exercise guru! Jane Fonda cult film queen Barbarella! Jane Fonda richer-than-God ex Mrs. Ted Turner!
What accounts for her success? Has the public forgiven her for what she did back in the war? This thread suggests no. So why is she on top? Why is she being honored as an influential woman?
I think part of the answer is America's self-imposed short term memory. Jane's a reminder of a very ugly time. We Americans generally don't like ugliness. As a nation we avert our eyes from it. We work too hard and life is too short to dwell on the bad stuff, right? We purge it from our minds. Let somebody else deal with it. Out, out damn spot, and all that.
Now for the other part of the answer: To help us forget (this brings me back to my earlier post), we have people who want to sell us nice images to replace the bad ones. They are called advertisers and marketers. They don't do it because it's good or bad or right or wrong. They do it because it makes them money.
Advertisers and marketers rule this land. And if you don't believe it, you are kidding yourself. The ironic part is, we ourselves give them the keys to the kingdom. We are so anxious to be relieved of the ugliness -- so eager to have a Coke and a smile -- that we swallow whatever reconstituted truth they feed us. We might question it at first, some of us even balk at the taste, but sooner or later most of us digest it. It's easier than fighting it. And if it replaces the ugliness that was there before, well, that's a good thing, isn't it?
Jane Fonda is the product of advertisers and marketers. The people who repackaged her, transforming her from traitor to role model, are the ones who ought to be voted "most influential of the century." The work they do is amazing. But the underlying truth is, they can't do it without the public as willing accomplice.
On the show thirtysomething, the Faustian ad agency CEO Miles Drentell once said, quite knowingly, "History is last week's People magazine." I've never forgotten that line because it seemed to explain all the artifice, injustice and helplessness of our culture. I don't know if I've effectively conveyed my sense of disgust over this, but be assured it's there.
I have to admire you folks who refuse to forgive or forget what Jane Fonda did. But at the same time, I want to ask, would it have been easier to forgive her (assuming she had made a sincere apology) if she hadn't become so successful after the events of the war? In perverting America's anger over what Jane did, did the advertisers and marketers who made Jane Fonda so successful also deny her any hope of forgiveness?
ubb
[ edited by spazmodeus on Sep 22, 2000 10:41 AM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 10:57:05 AM new
Wasn’t really directed at you Spaz. In fact, I found your post very thought provoking. It was more performance art – a continuation of krs’ last post on the first page. A somewhat obtuse reference, I agree, but my own version of “connect-the-dots”.
If you see fit though, you may claim it as your own.
I would not include Jane in any list unless it was at the lower end of the “24-Million Women Who Have lived and Breathed In This Century”.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:01:51 AM new
Spaz,
Much of what you said is true, but Jane is the perfect vessel to be filled and influenced by whatever forces are predominant in her life. She seems to have no personal sense of morality and her dignity, if it could be called that, is derived from associations with others. She has been an actress not because of any talent of her own but because she is a Fonda. She was an activist while in the influence of her then husband Tom Hayden. A mogul who enjoyed the fruits of Ted Turner's acumen, an exercize guru financed by others and driven by her own fear of lost youth. Now a Christian. Hard to say who has brought that to pass, or rather, too early to say.
She takes each role with all vigor but with never a thought of any consequence beyond her own self-aggrandizement.
You forgive a puppie wetting on the floor until it's had a correctly directed chance to learn not to do that. Proffesional dog breeders recognize that temperament problems can be lifelong failures and have errant pups put down for the betterment of the breed. (OK, I'm getting a little carried away).
So, forgive her? No, never. She messed with people's lives.
Will she be forgiven? Sure. She didn't mess with everyone's lives.
Honor her? Of course. It's no worse than what I've come to expect in this country. Absurdity.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:04:32 AM new
Spaz--my whole $.02 on Jane Fonda. She has been a media inegma from day one. Some one mentioned one of her earlier films, Barbarella. From that she went on to some great Academy Award winning films including Klute and Coming Home. She is always redefining herself--or the media is.
Jane Fonda is a product of this culture--whether some like it or not.
Me--I'd like to see her tackle Hollywood again and get a good role to harness. She is a wonderful actress and still has a lot to offer, her outside activities have left me in the cold for years--although some may not understand this via this thread.
We as individuals can say what we want and where we want. She utlilized this to the extreme during Vietnam and has since apologized.
Bottom line--some actions are never going to be forgiven. But I see it as OK. She has forgiven herself publically for what she did, the media pics and misrepresentations.
It's up to the vets to move on at this point. Beating a dead horse gets sorta pathetic after a while. Never forget the past, I agree---but the past is the past. Let's move on and learn from it!
KatyD--I understand what you are saying and there are many people throughout the globe that can understand.
[ edited by jeanyu on Sep 22, 2000 11:10 AM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 11:29:35 AM new
I don't recall that she had a great many followers at that time. Even those who agreed with her did not go to Vietnam on what was basically a publicity tour for her and cause the death of our soldiers who were POWs.
I don't think she should have been tried for treason, I think she should have become a POW, since she believed so much in the "goodness" of their captors.
Sacrifical lamb? She is the one who offered up the sacrifices.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:41:21 AM newWe as individuals can say what we want and where we want.
Yes! But also No.
Look, this country is a pretty good one. America provides a lot of latitude with regard to expressing yourself and dissenting. When it comes to treasonous activities, that sort of thing just undermines the integrity of the nation, divides it and causes harm and simply can't be tolerated. Burn the flag all you want, but don't aid our enemies in war time. Is that too much to ask of us?
Even if she has honestly repented of her sins and has truly begged for forgiveness from those she harmed, she still commited treasonous acts. They went unpunished? How lucky for her, but that doesn't mean she didn't commit them. And she is not entitled to acceptance or forgiveness. In Dante's Inferno, the lowest circle of Hell is reserved for treachorous people, I believe.
UBB boo boo
[ edited by jamesoblivion on Sep 22, 2000 11:42 AM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 12:13:30 PM new
I really have no opinion on this; I never liked Jane Fonda to begin with. She has always struck me as a corporate tool...prepared to whore herself out for a buck.
I really just wanted to post so I could commend Spasm for having the guts to admit he used to watch Thirtysomething.
posted on September 22, 2000 12:32:18 PM newDo you think the Jewish people should just "move on" as well and forget about the Holocaust?
I almost went down this road in my previous post, jada.
Here in the New York City area, the evening news teams are fast to seize on any incident where a swastika or the word "JEW" is sprayed-painted on a building or public property. Immediately reporters are on the scene and aged rabbis and Jewish Anti-Defamation League reps are brought before the cameras to offer their views on what it all could mean.
I have been in the company of people who really do think the Jews should just "move on." When these reports flash on the screen -- and I'm not kidding, when something like this happens the story often leads the days news, before reports of murders, rapes, etc. -- these people groan and say "Enough with the Holocaust already!"
I find it horrifying, yet it's a very American attitude -- IMHO, an attitude fostered by everything I wrote about above. Holocaust survivors vow "Never forget." They will say it till their deaths. And believe it. There's no feeble Americanized sense of "forgiveness" -- just a month or two ago they cheered as an ailing 85 year old former SS guard caught living here was deported. I think it's important to note here that Holocaust survivors are not American born. They're European, for the most part. And I think that makes an important difference when considering the concept of "moving on." "Moving on" is uniquely American.
As a nation we're too quick to forgive; at the same time, we're reluctant to punish. It's all connected. No wonder the bad people are on top. We have murderers who go up for parole after 7 years. If the taking of a life can be so easily set aside, is it any wonder that the majority can clear their consciences where the Jane Fondas of the world are concerned?
[edited to remove errant comma]
[ edited by spazmodeus on Sep 22, 2000 12:37 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 12:53:33 PM new
I am very impressed, Spaz!
(I will admit to digging Lifetime's "Moment of Truth" marathons...though I think MrJulesy is secretly trying to find a way to block out Lifetime's signal.)
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