jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 12:54:32 PM new
I don't know ---just a fast aside---Holocaust survivors are just that--survivors of unspeakable acts upon them and their families--US fighter pilots and US patriots PO'd at Jane Fonda---we got a big difference here. Perhaps Holocaust survivors and Vietnam refugees and survivors have a common ground. The hunters should not be confused with the hunted.
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krs
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posted on September 22, 2000 12:57:38 PM new
It's much worse than that. Spaz was seen to recommend submittals to The Reader's Digest, an indication that he reads the thing.
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cariad
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posted on September 22, 2000 12:58:39 PM new
For some actions, apologies will never be enough. And forgiveness will never happen.
My husband and I have moved on and it does not affect our life, but we have, and will never give up, our right to express our contempt for her whenever the subject comes up.
cariad
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krs
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:00:29 PM new
You should stop with "I don't know", Jeanyu.
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:04:06 PM new
KRS--after a year of so of your quick wit--I have even started to chuckle at your posts.
My favorite to date: "A Man in Knead". But it is tasteless none the less--just don't want to encourage you 
[ edited by jeanyu on Sep 22, 2000 01:12 PM ]
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Julesy
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:05:26 PM new
I saw the Reader's Digest thing. Did a double-take, even. 
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:27:53 PM new
Jeanyu there is a huge divide between dissention and treason. Many people objected to the US involvement in the Vietnam war for a number of reasons. They have a right to their opinions. But to actually visit a hostile country during a war and act to bolster their cause is nothing short of treason.
Step back from Vietnam since you have such strong feelings about the "rightness" of that conflict. Pick any war in which the US was involved that you might feel was more righteous. Jane visits Nazi Germany, Jane interviews POW marchers in Bataan, Jane helping the British during the American Revolution. Do her actions seem any more treasonous to you?
The biggest travesty of the Vietnam war was that Fonda wasn't stripped of her citzenship and isn't currently breaking rocks in Leavenworth prison.
Dr. Beetle
[ edited by DoctorBeetle on Sep 22, 2000 01:29 PM ]
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spazmodeus
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:30:32 PM new
Hey now -- I may be able to sit through a double feature of The Betty Broderick Story and Betty Broderick: Her Final Fury, but I do NOT read Reader's Digest. I just happen to know that they pay for "slice of life" material.
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 01:47:57 PM new
DRBeetle--I appreciate your annalgies.However, the trip to North Vietnam by Jane Fonda was covered extensively in the media and we back home saw what the broadcasters wanted us to see. She may have had an agenda totally different from what was broadcast. The media is very powerful--and people must realize this. Let's friggin ask her to come to this forum and finally finally set the record straight.
stranger things have happened.
My take is that this was a anti war sentiment gone hay-wire. Some people at that time were very desperate to see the killing and war end---
she came off looking like a traitor to you and like minded people. Me--I saw this as a desperate attempt to end the senseless killing. JMHO.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:05:26 PM new
We shouldn’t forgive the crossing of that chasm between dissent and treason. Fonda had many avenues open to her, mainly due to her fame, to publicize her position on the war. There can be no conceivable rationalization that makes visiting a nation actively killing US servicemen and women acceptable.
Yes, the media picks their slant on a story and will warp it to suit their world view. But the picture of Fonda sitting at an anti-aircraft gun wearing a Vietnamese helmet doesn’t require much interpretation. The documentation provided by ex-POWs is more than enough to show that Fonda actively aided the North Vietnamese. Trying to excuse her actions as a simple case of misplaced idealism just doesn’t wash.
Dr. Beetle
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krs
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:13:55 PM new
Spaz is beginning to mimic Edna Furber.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:21:11 PM new
Here is a link to the transcript of Fonda’s broadcast on Radio Hanoi on August 22nd, 1972. It sounds to me as if she is much more concerned with North Vietnam’s ability to resist “US aggression” than with “stopping the killing”. Judge for yourself.
http://gos.sbc.edu/f/fonda.html
Here is a link to Fonda’s so called “apology.” In my opinion it is very weak and limited.
http://www.olywa.net/sdotctho/m12/janeapol.htm
As far as Fonda goes, the below quote from Martin Luther King is very appropriate:
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
Dr. Beetle
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krs
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:26:29 PM new
Jeanyu, I'll quit all life the day I depend upon you to determine good taste for me.
As to your "an anti-war blah-blah gone bad; did you miss this portion of the postings thus far:
Fonda was watching North Vietnamese soldiers operating an antiaircraft gun.She was clapping,a wide grin on her face. Fonda had flown over to assist the war effort—the North Vietnamese war effort. She even had the temerity to sit at the controls of an anti-aircraft gun and smile as she peered through the sight as if she saw a U.S. F-105 flying into view?
Is applause for an enemy of the United States included in your definition of an anti-war statement?
Perhaps you mean to say that her efforts in behalf of those enemies would have assisted them in defeating the United States and thus ending the war? I guess that in your view she should have been provided U.S. operational plans so that the North Vietnamese could have eliminated U.S. troops at an even greater rate, thus bringing a hastier end to that war. No doubt, from her gleeful participation with them she would have been more than happy to do so. Why, she probably would have believed that it was her mission in life to aid in the killing of Americans.
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nutspec
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:26:42 PM new
Another 2 cents from the cheap seats.
The simple fact of the matter is that many of the issues around Vietnam are brought into sharp focus around the actions of one person.
No matter the distortions that have been added over the years - (In both directions) There is plenty of room for people to stake claims of smug-self-righteousness about Jane Fonda's acts
I make no claim of having no opinion here - I feel that what she did was beneath contempt. BUT - it is not proper or fitting that anybody has to "forgive" anything about her or what she has said since.
She has offered an apology - So be it - (no matter if you feel that it was honest or not) It is up to each individual that cares about the subject to look into their own hearts and see IF they are willing to ACCEPT the apology that is offered. Some are - some never will - the wound will always be too deep for them.
I know too many people from that time that will never accept what they see as her contributing factor to the death and misery of that war - Just as there are others that hold Westmorland and LBJ and Nixon in the same contempt. I lost a family member there and the empty chair and the heartbroken parents are enough. I am at peace with my feelings and perspective.
This can be debated until the end of time - nothing will ever be solved here because it is too personal and there are too many perspectives that you can take. It simply has to rest in each of our hearts about how to deal with it.
nutspec
[ edited by nutspec on Sep 22, 2000 02:32 PM ]
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jamesoblivion
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:30:31 PM new
I'm not sure why we must bend over backwards to consider alternate interpretations for things she did that she hasn't bothered to offer. She's had 28 years and and many forums to offer these explanations. Her motives at the time may have been pure. I'm sure Benedict Arnold's were too.
She wasn't a passionate college kid. She was 35 years old and a self described communist (more power to her, but her political views still don't give her license to knowingly act as a propoganda tool for the enemy in midst of a war). She obviously wasn't a pacifist either, so that line of reasoning won't explain anything.
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:30:50 PM new
Doctor Beetle--feel like we are sorta kinda going round in circles at this point.
She, Jane Fonda, gave every one a mind kick back then. She was with the "enemies" and lived to tell about it.
Enemies---those ---the government tells us are the bad guys. We must send our 18 and 19 year old babes to kill the enemies. The higher ups know whats what---kill kill kill.
So--we lost this war--and lost our babes--did the balance of government change that much? Did it make an economic difference in your life?
Bushwa. Cripes--she bought into the whole stupid magella then as we did. But--that's the beauty of living through such a travesty and living to tell about it. Live and Learn--and I believe she and a lot of us have.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:34:45 PM new
So, we are to credit Fonda for being stupid and having survived?
Dr. Beetle
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:35:58 PM new
Ah KRS--your light hearted response to another thread was probably inappropriatly responded to here. "A man in knead" indeed.
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Elfgifu
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:44:12 PM new
Jeanyu--
Where to begin to respond--it's a dilemma.
First, many Americans (including those who served with honor) disagreed with our involvement in Vietnam. Only one lent her name and presence to the enemy--only one allowed herself to belly up to the men who were torturing our P.O.W.s and publicly helped their propaganda campaigns.
Second, my husband and many thousands of Vietnam veterans have "moved on" and been successful in their lives, but that in no way lessens the anger and pain felt to see Jane Fonda honored for anything. You obviously were lucky enough not to know anyone who served and suffered over there or you might feel differently.
While I agree that the comparison between our Vietnam "police action" and the Holocaust is not valid, I object to your implication that victims of the Holocaust suffered unspeakable acts and our men did not. Perhaps you are unaware of the unspeakable torture that our men suffered on a regular basis, of the indescribable conditions in which they were held--some for many years, of the numbers of P.O.W.s who never came home and whose families to this day do not know what happened to them. Ms. Fonda regrets the picture of her on the anti-aircraft gun--what about the P.O.W.s she betrayed on her visit to the camps? Even if the stories of the papers turned over to the captors are untrue, the stories of men tortured for failing to respond to her visit "properly" are true--and just for one moment try to imagine how they must have felt to be where they were, enduring what they were and to be confronted byher, a fellow American expressing open contempt for them and for their suffering.
Never has Fonda completely acknowledged the depths of the hurt she personally inflicted and the passage of some 25 years is just not enough to erase her treason. It is a shame that your compassion for a woman who doesn't need it can't be translated to compassion and understanding for the hundreds of thousands whose "crime" was that they (most a great deal younger than the "youthful Fonda" who committed such "indiscretions" served their country honorably!!
No, I'm not new to AW -- just took all of your advice and changed from my eBay id!!
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krs
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:47:45 PM new
"So--we lost this war--and lost our babes--did the balance of government change that much? Did it make an economic difference in your life?".
Jeanyu, I have never heard such an appallingly stupid thing before in my life as your statement above.
Please do not address me in any way again.
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:55:25 PM new
Elfgifu--your words have-----it's very hard----said from the get go this thread was hard----idealism is so seemingly wonderful on paper-----thanks for your post. Don't think I can add any more to your sentiments. Just a fast aside--we all do what we do to try and alleiviate the miserable condition we might find a people or nation in. Fonda thought she was doing her best that she could do at that time. And remember---here at home--she was not alone with the sentiment. Where did all those activists go? Corporate? Guess so------
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:58:49 PM new
per your request KRS you are forever on ignore. Not that I so choose so because I believe this is much to learn from everyone--but--because you have in your small minded way requested this. So be it.
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cariad
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:58:59 PM new
So the only thing that has any significance to you is that "she gave everyone a mind kick" and what are the economic differences???
Your words are not worthy of any further response.
cariad
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twelvepole
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:05:43 PM new
Wow,
As someone who was too young for that war, I did have several family members experience it. Luckily they all came home.
As far as that traitorous B*tch is concernd she shouldn't be allowed to be mentioned in the same breath as an honorable veteran. My brother-in-law, a die hard Braves fan, quit watching them when Ted took up with her.
she is very lucky this is America and what we stand for, wouldn't of been the same had she been Vietnamese and came over here.
Forgiving Enemies is one thing, forgiving traitors...never.
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jamesoblivion
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:14:35 PM new
Jeanyu, the thing is she wasn't a pacifist at all. From what I understand, the majority of anti-war sentiment in the US sprang from a genuine desire for peace rather than for communist revolution. Fonda wholeheartedly supported the Viet Cong in Vietnam -- who embroiled Vietnam in a civil war in the first place. I really don't think her actions stemmed purely out of a love for humanity and a desire for peace. If they did, at least she had 28 years to say so and she still hasn't.
James.
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:19:04 PM new
James O--never implied she was a pacifist--she was mind kicking the US to wake up and see what we were doing to a nation and culture.
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DoctorBeetle
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:23:59 PM new
You literally stun me Jeanyu. You state: “Fonda thought she was doing her best that she could do at that time.” How do the intentions you attribute to her (certainly not supported by her Radio Hanoi broadcast or any of her rhetoric at the time) excuse aiding a country actively engaged in the murder and torture of prisoners of war?
You further state: ”And remember---here at home--she was not alone with the sentiment.” So what. There were (and still are) people that thought Hitler was right to attempt to exterminate the Jews. That there are like minded people doesn’t make certain actions right.
There are boundaries. There are lines that should not be crossed. There are many alternatives to treason. Fonda crossed those boundaries. No amount of idealism and whitewash will change what she did. Try as hard as you like, but you cannot revise Fonda’s actions into the naïve mistakes of a peace loving activist that made an unfortunate choice. You cannot revise treason into a piece of political street theater.
Dr. Beetle
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tegan
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:40:57 PM new
My .02 cents: (for what it's worth)
It's like cheating on your spouse. There is no good "reason" to do it and there is no
apology that can cure the wound it causes. There may be some people who are
strong enough to go on with the marriage after having been wronged and learn to
forgive but I don't believe the wound ever totally heals.
I was against the war at the time this happened but even I in my youth realized she
had stepped way over the line. To protest against the war was one thing but to
celebrate the enemy was another thing entirely.
She cheated on the country. She was very, very stupid. Most cheaters don't have a
clue why they are not forgiven. They can't see the scars.
For some people no apology that comes from her lips will ever be good enough. It will be picked apart and be found wanting.
No one knows if she is really sorry and no one but her and her maker ever will.
Should she be honored? I can think of about 200 women who should have been in line in front of her. Even if we could take the whole Vietnam issue out of it she (in my opinion )has not done enough to warrent celebration.
She was a good actress (surely not in the top 100 though) she made a lot of money in exercise video's (Get real here!) and married very well (too many times).
My vote..not worthy of honoring but also not worthy of hating either. Too much energy expended for very little results.
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oddish4
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:44:38 PM new
Jane Fonda being honered for anything makes me sick. I wasn't alive for much of the war and a baby during the rest so I don't personally remember it but I know people who were there. I know that half of the males in my mother's high school class simply aren't here anymore. I know a nice man who lived up the street from us lost everything including his family when he finally got back from Vietnam having been a prisoner of war for many years, because he simple could not deal with the horrible things that happened to him. He has since gotten alot better and now lectures but that doesn't replace everything he lost.
I wonder if those so willing to cut Jane some slack over this have ever themselves been tortured or even have a tiny inkling of just what that entails. My guess would be no.
The arguement she was young is pathetic. I'm only 29 years old right now a full 6 years younger than she was then. How old do you have to be to know NOT to betray your country OR the brave men and women who defend it? My 8 year old knows that.
Of course she has the freedom )God Bless America) to do whatever she so chooses to do but I can't help wonder why she was even let back into the country. After all if North Vietnam was so great why didn't she just stay there to enjoy al that communism has to offer?
Forgiveness seems moot to me. She should have been tried for treason. She should be still serving the sentence for what she did..our guys are.
Oddish~ The Odd One
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jeanyu
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:59:01 PM new
Oddish-as a young one --you will not remember night after night --year after year of the nightly news of killing and death and the total death tolls to date. The first war that was brought to our dining room table.
Every night we saw more gruesome footage than any horror film has ever shown.
So many said---let's end it--however--whatever---let's end the carnage.
Thanks to the media--we had a bird's eye view of death to our GI's and a Vietnam Nation.
Some spoke out---some went to North Vietnam---but it had to end somehow and someway.
Maybe thanks to the media--we will never have a war like this again. Just not holding my breath and definately not holding Jane Fonda responsible for the Vietnam War and its casualties. It still hurts--and some want to lay blame---look to your elected officials.
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