posted on January 3, 2001 06:04:10 PM new
"This is why those "DVD" movies you see coming from Hong Kong aren't really DVD's ... they are VCD's but most people don't know the difference until
they play them."
Wrong. While there are VCD's coming from abroad, there are certainly DVD's coming over as well. DVD's are cheap to produce, and are of high quality as well... as long as you can find a plant that will do them.
posted on January 3, 2001 11:15:39 PM new
I was getting pretty mad, so I walked away from my computer for awhile. I had to just address a few more points, and then I'm done.
nycrocker Obviously, you have no reason to care about my aunt's feelings at all. And that's really just my emotional "in" on this; I know the toll it takes. I cannot go into much more detail about the recordings in question or risk identifying her, but I can say that the "advertisements" and message-board posts I've seen about these recordings are absolutely not from loving fans. Many of the bootleggers she encountered were both gloating and vicious. I have one copy of an audio tape that uses a "blurb" of MY post on a bootleg BBS board, seeking copies of the most offensive tape and (again, I admit, stupidly) relaying my aunt's plea that this PLEASE not be distributed. To make it worse, the recording was not made at a public performance.
I'll accept that you may think my aunt's experience colors my impressions unfairly. But I cannot consider you mocking her feelings to be appropriate. She feels the way she feels. I hope you never have cause to feel the same way.
Twinsoft, You have a good point that artists who perform in public live in the real world & should expect to be ripped off to a certain extent. I just can't agree with you that that makes it right. Defensible, maybe, for the diehard fans like Jane who really love the artists and want everything they can get. My aunt never had any grudge against the fans. And Jane, it's different from re-selling legally bought product because that product has the artists' (or labels') approval and both have gotten the compensation due them under their contracts. (I can't really say "and the artist has been paid" because labels have their own special way of ripping artists off as we all know.)
Twinsoft and Jane I believe you both have good hearts and really believe what you're saying, but as usual, you come back to the same old tired pro-bootlegging argument, which is the ability to get rarities of superstars -- which is all you say you're interested in. This overlooks the real impact on the struggling emerging artists, and yes, so-called "faded" stars like my aunt (though she's well-set financially, she has many friends who are now destitute.) Look at most of the files on Napster, etc. It ain't all Garth Brooks and the Beatles, by a longshot. And again, I ask, where do you draw the line? How do you claim that it's "OK" to trade a recording of Linda Rondstadt cracking up in the middle of "Desperado" but not OK to trade files of someone "who might really need the money?"
posted on January 4, 2001 12:48:23 AM newmsincognito, you said this was about artistic control. Now you're saying it's a rip-off? Which is it?
You keep complaining about "same old tired pro-bootlegging argument" so it's obvious your mind is made up. I'm not going to argue just for the hell of it.
posted on January 4, 2001 04:54:25 AM new
twinsoft ... oh yeah, well then me tell you you about MY aunt .... errr ... Uncle (yeah, that's it ... My rich and famous Uncle who I cannot identify and who ...)
posted on January 4, 2001 05:26:13 AM new
It's interesting how what is essentially a legal issue can elicit such emotion.
ms, I think that you need to take a step back from this situation and see it for what it really is: not a judgement call on whether or not a bootleg is 'wrong' to own or produce, but how auction sites such as eBay supposedly don't allow the offering of such materials, yet don't allow some sort of recourse when it does occur. I'm sorry about your aunt, but it's been my experience with working in the music industry that if an artist is really feeling that passionately 'wronged' she/he would take action enlisting the help of her record company and/or a personal copyright attorney, or at the very least, her fan base.
My greatest objection with auction sites, eBay in particular, is that when an item is offered for sale, said item's legitimacy is not confirmed beforehand. Although there is no *official* process for handling it, I still believe that they would be wise to implement something to ensure that a buyer doesn't feel 'ripped off'. In the case of the band that I work for, several items that never even existed were being touted as 'rare' items. Now where's the fairness in that? In addition, there was a CD-R up for auction that suggested another 'rare' B-Side that turned out to be a song that *sounded* like the band but really wasn't, that song was posted on Napster 'as' the band, and dloaded and burned to CD-R.
It's a question of accountability - and it's not such a grand thing to expect in a company.
posted on January 4, 2001 11:29:23 AM new
Here's another question regarding bootlegs -
What is the consensus regarding bootlegs of television shows that are not possible to get through cable or broadcast, such as soap operas that only have one airing?
Is it okay to trade/sell these? What about "one hit wonders" that never see the light of day again in syndication?
I see this kind of stuff on ebay all the time. I know that technically they aren't considered to be legal auctions, but what is a fan to do that has no recourse other than buying dubbed copies of something that rare?
posted on January 4, 2001 12:09:52 PM new
skruggie
"What is the consensus regarding bootlegs of television shows that are not possible to get through cable or broadcast, such as soap operas that only have one airing?"
This really isn't a consensus type issue. It is just as illegal for the ordinary Joe to tape and sell copies of these as it is to tape and sell copies of current movies. There are, however, some companies who have purchased the rights to some of the older tv stuff. For example, there are usually copies of old series' like "Highway Patrol" for sale on eBay. The duplicators of these tapes have the right to make copies from their film masters - they paid for this right. You should always check with the seller first though. If he is one of these legit dealers, he will be happy to answer your questions. If he isn't, you probably won't get a response.
I'm not sure what would happen if the copyright owner decided to market these series' under their own banner - competition would probably be stifled (the copyright owner has the biggest stick).
This, I think, may be one of the reasons eBay struggles with trying to figure out what's OK and what isn't. They ask for our expertise, then ignore us when we provide it!
Unfortunately, that's the only way you or I can purchase legal copies of some of this great old tv.
As to TRADING copies, there is a "loophole" in the law that allows recording for 'timeshifted' viewing. In other words, I can tape "As the Stomach Turns" off air, then trade you a copy for something that you have. Technically, this may be against the law, but as long as profits are not being made, the MPAA types tend to look the other way. In cases where you may want something from my collection, but you don't have anything to trade, I (again, a technical crime) can provide you with a copy for the cost of the tape and mailing it to you. If I charge you 10 bucks, no problem. If I charge you 80 bucks, big problem. When the sellers get caught doing this, the onus is on them to justify their costs. Anyone would be hard pressed to justify $80.00 for a single tape (the rareness of the material on the tape is irrelevant - you are paying for the tape only).
I had an auction ended last year by eBay for an entire run of a tv series. Prior to listing it, I contacted NBC (the owner) to ask them if I could sell my tapes for the cost of the tapes. I didn't have room for the tapes any more, and I never tape over anything - I thought it would be better to find them a new home then turf them. As the series has never been commercially released, and probably never will, they gave me the OK as long as I wasn't trying to make a profit. btw, this auction included a total of 68 studio quality tapes, and I had a reserve price of $340.00 which included shipping to anywhere in North America. Hell of a deal!
"I see this kind of stuff on ebay all the time."
Many of these are like the "Highway Patrol" eps I mentioned above.
"what is a fan to do that has no recourse other than buying dubbed copies of something that rare?"
Join a trading circle! I am now in my 16th year of trading video tapes worldwide. I have a huge collection of cult tv that has not been released commercially, and I haven't paid for any of them.
posted on January 4, 2001 03:02:19 PM new
This one is interesting. I participate in an Entreprenuers Networking Forum localy. We get together once a month share ideals and network with one another. One of our more newer members sells collections of top hits, he has an 80's cd, a RB CD, a rap CD, a heavy metal cd, and a country cd. No two hits from the same artist on any CD.
One of the established members of the forum didn't want this guy admitted because he said the business was a pirating operation. The member said I have the rights to use the material and have paid the recording companies to use the songs. Sure enough he pays the record labels 20 cents per song. 15 songs per CD, two CD's per offering. They sale for 19.95, he sales them via mail order using cableTV ads. I was wondering is it possible that some of the ebay sellers have similar agreements?
We were talking one day after our monthly meeting and he told me the 20 cents for one song is more than some of the artist made for the album the song was on. He told me he thinks the labels give the artist something like 2 to 3 cents of the 20 cents. But in many cases they don't have to give the artist anything. He went on to say its too bad that guy from NAPSTER didn't bother to get a business education before he launched napster. The guy would be a billionaire today if would have made the system where you pay a small fee similar to ebay. He could have then got the labels in on the deal thus allowing him to build collections of pay by the song downloads from the collections. Alas he didn't think with a capitalistic mind and now is a broke hero in the middle of a court fight.
