You are right on target. The email that opened this thread was (initially) determined, by one reader to be partially incorrect because he doubted that a fighter pilot would be a "river rat." The reader would be correct if the statement in the email was meant as (he) interpreted the statement.
However, if one was to read the history of Lt. Col. Driscoll, one will immediately realize the statement meant; Lt. Col. Jerry Driscoll flew missions over an area in Vietnam known as the (dreaded) "Red River Valley, that the (full) name of the post-war organization is the "Red River Valley Fighter Pilots Association" but usually referred to in an abbreviated form as the "River Rats," that Driscoll and a number of the members (are) pilots who flew missions over the "Red River valley," because he is a member, he is referred to as a "River Rat."
Apparently the organization was first comprised of Red River Valley fighter pilots but (apparently) has broadened their membership base to all Vietnam fighter pilots, regardless of number of missions flown, and that there is a (direct) relationship between the organization and members of units that flew combat missions in Vietnam.
As for the organization's philosophical statement regarding what determines a fighter pilot, I interpret it to mean that to be a (true) fighter pilot is determinate upon having a particular state of mind. That not all pilots flying fighters have the "state of mind, but some truck drivers do even though they do not fly aircraft e.g., the eye of the tiger.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:01:12 PM new
You're right I don't remember that. I hope I never get the opportunity to know what it is like. I also do not hold her resonsible for the whole war or all it's causualties.
I do however hold her responsible for her actions. Actions which caused our men to suffer more than they needed to. Actions which she should be punished for.
I don't like war either. I may not even have agreed with the Vietnam war but once our guys are sent keeping them safe should be top priority. I don't believe it should stop at any cost. I also don't believe her actions did one dang thing to stop any killing but probably added to it. Added to it with the lives of Americans.
Why just because she is a "Celebrity" does she not have to be responsible for the affects of her actions? It wasn't just a whoops oh darn well sorry guys I didn't really mean any harm. It profoundly affected many many lives. These men are never going to "get over" the time they spent there. Their families will never "get over" the loss of a loved one. Their kids will not "get over" not having a father or having their father have so many problems.
I hope she's learned that she caused so much suffering to so many people through her ignorance. I guess it's nice for her that she can offer a half assed apology and live with herself but I hardly think she should be honored as if it didn't matter. It matters. It matters alot.
Oddish~ The Odd One
posted on September 22, 2000 05:06:42 PM newJane Fonda sitting on a North Vietnamese Anti Aircraft Gun used to shoot at American servicemen and their aircraft
posted on September 22, 2000 05:07:51 PM new
Love these idiotic armchair generals. Now compile a listing of 4000 fighter pilots who flew missions in Vietnam, since it matters so much. But remember, these will be AIR FORCE fighter pilots, not to include NAVY fighter pilots.
Betcha' can't do it! LOL!
Oh, and
"This story is attributed in the email to former Air Force pilot Jerry Driscoll, who says it's false and did not originate from him. I wasn't able to speak with Driscoll directly, but Mike McGrath and Paul Galanti,
fellow officers of the Nam-POWs organization to which Driscoll belongs, told me he unequivocally disavows the story."
"[Update: after this commentary was written I received personal confirmation from Jerry Driscoll that the story is bogus – as he put it, "the product of a very vivid imagination."]"
Mike McGrath, currently serving as the president of Nam-POWs, has been trying for more than a month to help Driscoll and Carrigan squelch the false rumors circulating under their names.
"They would like to get their names removed but the story seems to have a life of its own," he told me."There are a lot of folks out there who would love to have a story like that to hang their hat and their hate on."
Right in front of old beady eyed security guard's nose, it is.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:15:28 PM new
Not getting into political issues from 30 years ago...but absolutely refusing to pretend there was (is) ANY justification for what Jane Fonda did. Yep, there are excuses up the ying yang, but there is no credible reason for her to have acted in the way she did.
Yes...I liked On Golden Pond for Henry Fonda and Kathern Hepburne and in spite of Ms. Fonda...only movie I ever saw that had Jane in it. (I even read RD on occasion and loved the movie Giant)
But even more...what the hell is that classification (exercise garu) even doing in something as important a 100 Women of the Century list. There are so many woman who have done so much for the betterment of society that Ms. Fonda's name should never have come up in any caegory, For Christ's sake what in the hell has she done to rate a spot in any women of the century list...unless it was inclusive of all of us.
**Disclaimer: If I appear arguementive please clarify. I am just too tired to be real formal. And I certainly don't have the energy to argue. C.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:23:38 PM new
If you listen closely, you can usually determine when you hit someone in the vitals. They utter incomprehensible sounds and often make nonsensical statements. It can continue for sometime before they expire.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:28:51 PM new
I knew about the denial by Driscoll and others regarding what allegedly occurred when Fonda visited North Vietnam. That is (old) news. However, the purported false allegations was not the subject that "Fred" was talking about, and neither was I.
posted on September 22, 2000 05:31:42 PM new
It apparently can continue for quite some time as evidenced by:
"determines a fighter pilot, I interpret it to mean that to be a (true) fighter pilot is
determinate upon having a particular state of mind. That not all pilots flying fighters have the "state of mind, but some truck drivers do even though they do not fly aircraft e.g., the eye of the tiger."
or does it only happen in people who've seen too many replays of "Rocky III"?
posted on September 22, 2000 05:38:59 PM new
There was once an old Amish(?) decision to turn one's one back on the "shunted". This is the way I feel about Hanoi Jane. Such a bad decison to make, whether she was influenced by her-then husband, Tom Hayden. But then if she was influenced, why is SHE such an influence.?
posted on September 22, 2000 06:55:15 PM new
"So--we lost this war--and lost our babes--did the balance of government change that much? Did it make an economic difference in your life?"
Jeanyu, if you, in fact, had any knowledge of political and governmental history, you would realize that, in fact, the "balance" of our government changed dramatically following the Vietnam War.
And if you had one ounce of sensitivity, you could not dismiss the loss of lives ("our babes" ) as inconsequential unless we also experienced legislative and economic differences.
But, to answer your questions, yes. The Vietnam war affected the balance of government in this country and in others. And yes, it made a dramatic economic difference in my life.
And these things are not comparable to the loss (through death or irreparable damage) of those we loved. My husband's name is on that damn wall. It made all the difference in the world--then, and yet today. How dare you?
I join KRS in requesting that you please refrain from addressing me again.
Beth
edited: no, not smiling, no.
[ edited by hellcat on Sep 22, 2000 06:57 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 07:13:17 PM new
I think a lot (most?) of the blame goes to the Ladies Home Journal, who compiled this book,
and who thought up the 100 Women of the 20th Century, to be honored
and I think the editor has been reamed pretty good for naming Fonda.
posted on September 22, 2000 07:30:16 PM new
Someone persists in making a fool of himself, apparently unaware that no bombing of Hanoi or any outlying area occurred in South Vietnam, where U.S. troops were. There was close air support (fast movers) in all of the corps areas, but those guys came from big places like Bien Hoa airbase. Those other guys came from Guam and Okinawa or carriers. Never saw one of them.
posted on September 22, 2000 08:32:26 PM new
"It just surprises me...They keep saying I'm some kind of icon and that I started the new generation's sex movement. All I did was pose in the nude."
posted on September 22, 2000 09:12:45 PM new
"My take is that this was a anti war sentiment gone hay-wire. Some people at that time were very desperate to see the killing and war end---"
Oh dear Jeanyu...There wasn't a soul in the U.S. that didn't want the killing of our red blooded American boys in Vietnam to end. I, too, did my share of protesting the war in the streets of downtown Seattle, and in burning effigies of Tricky Dick aka I am not a crook. But no American woman can lay claim to direct responsibility for having the lives of American GI's ended through her personal actions in protest of this war - none other than Jane herself.
Jane Fonda committed treason in every essence of the definition. Daddy's wealth and connections, no doubt, saved her from a life in prison. Nothing else. If it had been you, or any other common person handing over pieces of paper with SSN's written on them to the persons in charge of a POW camp, you'd be sitting in jail to this day.
Why didn't Ms. Fonda simply choose to slip them in her pocket and bring them home so the families would know their soldiers were, at least, alive? Fixed that "alive" analogy for some of them, didn't she? Her actions directly caused the death of American soldiers. There should be no forgiveness for her actions. Not then. Not now. Not ever.
posted on September 22, 2000 09:29:07 PM new
I can't believe what I've read here - why in the world would anyone honor Jane Fonda - or defend her? Jeanyu Here's a recap of your innocent little school girls actions - and btw, I hope you do "get it" that your apparent flippant attitude about the men and women who were effected by this traitor is grossly insulting to anyone that has lost a loved one there.
Jane Fonda is a woman who shamelessly used her father's money and celebrity influence to live a life of self-indulgence and child-like idiocy even into her thirties.
She wasn't even living in the U.S. when we entered the war. She lived in France for years, then she stumbled upon a handful of groupies - who also happened to be deserters of the U.S. military. These deserters were the ones who had the wisdom to fill her in on the atrocities being committed by the "imperialist" (her words) U.S. during her absence.
Of course, she had to race back to the U.S. - took up with Donald Sutherland and together they started the "FTA" - F**k The Army - specificially created and intended to attack the moral of our military. She then spent months personally visiting military bases across the country trying to convince young service men and women to desert their positions and join her movement. All the while still finding time to actively
campaign for the release of the likes of Angela Davis. Does this sound like the acts of an innocent youth simply caught up in the anti-war movement?
Her broadcasts for Hanoi were specifically intended to demoralize the American prisoners of war.
A kick in the gut to our servicemen from her Hanoi speech:
"One thing that I have learned beyond a shadow of a doubt since I've been in this country is that Nixon will never be able to break the spirit of these people; he'll never be able to turn Vietnam, north and south, into a neo-colony of the United States by bombing, by invading, by attacking in any way. One has only to go into the countryside and listen to the peasants describe the lives they led before the revolution to understand why every bomb that is dropped only strengthens their determination to resist."
Another speech:
"I'm speaking particularly to the US servicemen, I don't know what your officers tell you...your weapons are illegal and ... the men who are ordering you to use these weapons are war criminals according to international law. In the past, in Germany and Japan, men who committed these kinds of crimes were tried and executed."
Her words weren't "careless" - they were calculated and deliberate. And, btw - after all of this she recently admitted that she "really doesn't understand communism." DUH!
She further added insult to injury by calling returning service men and women "hypocrites and liars" when they dared to speak of the atrocities they had endured at the hands of the "honorable" government she had defended.
This is the same woman who praised Jim Jones and his People's Temple cult. Only a few months before the mass suicide in Guyana she referred to this "wise" man and his followers as "the church I relate to most" for its "sense of what life is all about."
Her apology was too little too late. At this time in her life Jane Fonda has more money and as much potential influence as she's ever had at any time in her life. If she had any sincere understanding of the depths of cruelty behind her words and actions she
would give it more than lip service. Her apology means absolutely nothing - actions are the only thing that matter.
Even her half assed apology in 1988 was only an orchestrated response to protestors who were shutting down production of a movie she was involved in.
Jane Fonda does whatever serves her purpose at the moment. I believe that the people who choose to honor or defend her really don't have a clue about the real depths of her "work" on behalf of the North Vietnamese.
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