posted on September 22, 2000 09:47:43 PM new
Jeanu - I believe most of the elected officials involved with this war are now dead, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon....
A lot of people felt this war was wrong, that the United States should not be involved, many well-meaning, conscientious souls who hated the killing and the tragedy. However, they didn't see fit to aid and abet the enemy as Jane Fonda did.
At that time, young men were drafted, they had no choice as to whether or not they went to Vietnam. Many women went also as nurses, etc. and peformed as bravely as any soldier.
Are you now blaming the American men and women who fought this war for the atrocity of the war itself? Do you think the consequences of Jane Fonda's actions - POWs were killed as a result - should now be chalked up to "idealism" gone astray?
Never mind, I don't wish to discuss this point any further with you as I don't believe you fully understand the horrors of that war as shown by your flippant remark "we lost our babes....."
Beth and everyone who is a veteran of that war or has been touched by that war, you all have my everlasting thanks and support.
posted on September 22, 2000 10:25:07 PM new
Krs - You're welcome, for what I don't know, but you're still welcome.
One of my oft-recalled memories of that war is picking someone up at the airport and seeing a young wife, couldn't have been over 19 or 20, trying to hold back her tears, unsuccessfully, as she said good-bye to her husband as he was headed to Vietnam.
The despair and worry I saw in that young soldier's face as he tried to reassure his wife, whle not knowing whether or not he would indeed return, and the fear in his wife's eyes has never left me.
They were both heros, as was everyone who had a family member, friend or anyone in Vietnam.
posted on September 22, 2000 10:26:47 PM new
Vietnam. Still divided - and dividing. Man, does this thread bring back memories none of them good.
I can understand why Hanoi Jane wants now to claim that she never really understood communism. If she understood it and wanted to live it - she could make a good start by distributing all the wealth she has ammassed to the homeless or poor, the "glorious peasant" class she once bragged she championed. Would she eat at the table with people like that today? In her spangled, spandex or designer duds. I think not. She was born with a silver spoon in her mouth and has been steady jamming both feet in next to it all her life. No wonder she's a workout guru. Gotta stay flexible to be able to do that. Give her accolades as a woman to substance? Personally, I wouldn't cross the street to p**s on her if she was on fire.
Nuff Said.
Edited for HTML tags that didn't belong. More rattled by what I've read than I thought, I guess.
[ edited by yorequest on Sep 22, 2000 10:28 PM ]
[ edited by yorequest on Sep 22, 2000 10:31 PM ]
posted on September 22, 2000 10:41:23 PM newKRS After reading everything that was said today I thought I was speechless too. Judging from the length of my post, I guess I wasn't afterall.
posted on September 22, 2000 11:14:22 PM new
The topic of this thread creates such a paradox in my eyes.
On one hand, you have Jane Fonda's irresponsible behavior. I don't even think it was idealism; her actions appear to be egotistical and stupid. And selfish, to have put the lives of so many at risk. It's repugnant
On the other hand, we didn't belong in Vietnam. The decisions made, and lies told, by our political leaders were just as repugnant. To send 50,000 young men to their deaths, in a country that didn't even want us there, is repugnant. To use nepalm and drop incendiaries on civillians, under the phony guise of defeating communism, is repugnant.
I guess what I am trying to say, and I mean no disrepect and understand that this is an emotional issue for many, is that I can somewhat understand why, at that time, there would be a lot of anti-America sentiment. I am genuinely sorry that that sentiment was taken out on young American men, who dutifully did battle. But there is no getting around the fact that our government put them in that position, through lies and deception.
posted on September 23, 2000 12:06:38 AM new
No offense taken, but that's an oversimplification. There was a chain of agreements made since before the end of WW2 that culminated in the US having to carry out policies which in essense were no longer relevant. Those agreements were made when the US needed the assistance of others to carry the war in the pacific. It wasn't simply send troops off to defeat communists; it was send troops off because we said we would if necessary. The US obtained advantage from the Diem regime and it's predecessor, and owed a debt. The Diem monarchy and it's successor military junta did very much want us there, as after the defeat of the French we were their only remaining hope. That Diem was a Catholic and the majority of the populace was Buddhist was the reason for the unpopularity of foriegn support for Diem. In any case it's not accurate to say that the country did not want us there as some of them did.
I doubt that Napalm was ever used against civilian targets by design. (It is the incendiary, BTW). I'm certain that civilians were subject to it's effects.
Believe me, there was no more fervent interest in the end of all hostilities in Vietnam than that of the people fighting there. It didn't take very long to figure out that the entire effort was not being conducted as a war to win, and all of us just wanted to get the hell out of there.
So you're right in not blaming the soldiers. We had little choice in the matter. We were aware of the anti-war movement in 1968, and many of us saw it as a hope for a way to be able to live. I can't emphasize "to live" enough. Vietnam was a hard survival course, and many didn't. I never met anyone there who didn't want to.
But it's like this: don't tell me that I'm a traitor, or call me a baby killer, burner of innocent people, or any of the rest of that. I just had a job and I did it. To see that woman denigrate the efforts in doing that job of the finest people I've ever known, to hear of her telling the world that we all deserved to die for what we did leaves no room for anything but hatred of her.
I've been brief here, and I don't want to go on with it. There are thirty years of having lived in Vietnam in me now. My friends, my brothers are there, even if they are here. I see dead friends if I sleep, even now. It doesn't go away.
posted on September 23, 2000 12:13:20 AM newJulesy You're right - it's a tough subject. No offense taken - but,
IMO, the shame of the Vietnam war was not in the decisions that were made at the highest levels. Whether or not we should have been there in the first place isn't nearly as relevant as how we - the nation - acted once we got there.
Once our people were on that battlefield this nation had an obligation to stand behind them. And, our willingness to tolerate the hateful b.s. of the likes of Jane Fonda was unforgiveable. When you look at the overall picture of her actions toward those in service to this country, she should have been arrested and tried for treason.
Instead we allowed a snot nosed, attention grubbing "celebrity" to treat our people like the enemy. That's what we as a nation should be ashamed of.
posted on September 23, 2000 12:30:33 AM newMybiddness -- I wholeheartedly agree with you; once there, our troops deserved nothing but our support. I guess I was just looking at this from a different angle.
Ken -- I am sorry I oversimplified and generalized the issue. I had written a much longer post, and edited, for fear of wordiness. I won't add to this thread further as this kind of discussion probably isn't helpful to the feeling's of many here, you included.
posted on September 23, 2000 12:49:50 AM newKrs your words knocked the wind out of me:
"I see dead friends if I sleep, even now. It doesn't go away."
For all our passion about Vietnam the truth remains that there are war survivors all across the nation whose dreams are haunted by the pain and deaths they witnessed on the battlefield. I can read every book ever written about the war, watch every movie - study the pros and cons. But, I know nothing about what it means to lie facedown in the dirt of a foreign land watching my friends die before my eyes and wondering if I'll make it home.
Our Vietnam Veterans deserve our respect. We lost the right to second guess the war when we sent them there in the first place.
Julesy I honestly didn't see your opinion as offensive and hope I didn't come across that way. I'm still stewing over the whole idea of Jane Fonda being honored - so, my soap box rantings are directed at her and not you.
posted on September 23, 2000 01:03:52 AM new
Julesy,
No need for apology, they were common misconceptions, often expressed. And don't leave because you think that you've caused any discomfort. You haven't.
posted on September 23, 2000 02:01:42 AM new
This has been a very painful, at times, and eloquent, at times, thread to read. It makes me want to weep for they who were lost and for those who LIVE with the loss of their comrades and loved ones.
To excuse that woman's actions is reprehensible. To believe an apology from her inexcusable. The holocaust has been mentioned here. I have to wonder at her thoughts when Viet Nam had it's own holocaust after our troops left. I also have to wonder why she came back to the USA if she was so enthralled with the Viet Cong. Was it because life in the US was just a tad more comfortable and she destroyed young men's lives for her own selfish reasons just to garner attention to a flagging film career?
I cannot stand it, just cannot stand it when I think of the hope she gave those young men who passed her their SS numbers and then the fear and dread of what they had to have known was to come when they saw her give the slips papers to the captors. It literally makes me ill again after all of these years.
My only consolation is that someday she will have to answer for her actions to a higher power.
posted on September 23, 2000 06:03:50 AM new
"On one hand, you have Jane Fonda's irresponsible behavior. I don't even think it was idealism; her actions appear to be egotistical and stupid. And selfish, to have put the lives of so many at risk. It's repugnant "
Irresponsible and repugnant behavior was calling soldiers "baby killers", spitting on them, screaming and yelling obscenities at them.
To put the lives of so many at risk is criminal and treason.
cariad
posted on September 23, 2000 06:20:11 AM new
Well, not to excuse her. Remember that Jane Fonda did not have the benefit of chat board life to mold her sense of right and wrong. Unless,......do you think........Jane Fonda is the Parrot??!!
posted on September 23, 2000 06:22:18 AM new
Hi krs and those who served our country,
I haven't posted in a long time but still keep up with many of you. There is a poster here whose words hit me like a ton of bricks and a slap in the face to every person that served in VietNam. It hit to the very core and for the life of me I can't believe that anyone could be so heartless and in favor of a woman that her picture and words were like a shot heard around the world, like a bullet to the heart. I don't hold her responsible for the whole war but I do hold her responsible for helping prolong it. A hero...NOT! As to our "media" using her and putting their own twist on it. Please! Jane Fonda didn't need help in that line of thought.
I would like to thank those of you that served or had family members that served and lost their husbands, brothers, fathers, sons. They may have been "babes" (such a crass term) when they were drafted or enlisted but those "babes" turned into men real quick.
To Krs and others of you .
Several of your statements and others who have posted here hit home. I think "rendered speechless" doesn't even explain how those remarks hit me either.
I do not know how anyone can utter a remark to you and other veterans that, "vets should get over it".
Krs, your remark "My friends, my brothers are there, even if they are here--I see dead friends if I sleep, even now it doesn't go away."
I have heard my husband express those very words as well as many other veterans who served our country. There are those who to this day who feel guilty because they did come home and so many could not.
Many did not ask to fight. They were drafted and they did not run from that duty and responsibility. They served with honor and many paid the ultimate price...their life.... and there are many that are still here that are still paying.
Every veteran,and every military person that served in any war is a hero to me. There were parades for the WWII veterans and rightly so but how many of you veteran's who served in VietNam ever had anyone come up and say, "Thank you for serving our country. You did good." The answer. Not many. I wonder how many of you that served were told not to wear your uniform when coming back to the world after 13 months lest you be spit upon or called baby killer. It was called a conflict. What a stupid term.
Did we learn anything..Yes, I hope so. We hopefully will never again ask for our men and women to fight a war with one hand tied behind their back. Say whatever you want but our men and women did NOT lose the war. The men and women (yes, Nurses too) are to be saluted and I say Thank you.
edited: out of my deep respect
[ edited by shar9 on Sep 23, 2000 07:18 AM ]
[ edited by shar9 on Sep 23, 2000 07:21 AM ]
posted on September 23, 2000 06:41:02 AM new
Thanks Shar9,
On Beth. I may be overstepping a little in saying that I think that she may be embarrassed to have posted what she did here about Ray, her husband. I know that she was quite upset with the words of that poster, but to my memory this was the first time she'd actually said that he'd been killed there. I know that she posted his name and date of casualty in a veteran's Day thread without further comment.
I'm sure that she's quite out of sorts with this now, and maybe ought to be left out of further postings. She'll renew her part in the thread if she choses to do so.
Please do not read this as in any way critical of your expressions of support for her. I'm very sure that she appreciates that intention. It's just that this matter is deeply painful to her and held in very close privacy. It's been only in the last few months that she's addressed her feelings directly herself.
posted on September 23, 2000 07:01:21 AM new
i cried when I read jeanyu's callous words. a family member has PTSD from being a medic in Vietnam and also has damage from agent orange. those who lost their lives and also those who survived, so many suffered mentally and physically afterwards, they all deserve our utmost respect.
posted on September 23, 2000 07:15:59 AM new
Hello krs,
No insult taken and none meant and I understand completely. There are many who have spoken here that I am proud of and there are still many who still can't and I respect that.
posted on September 23, 2000 07:46:24 AM new
Ken, you have not overstepped. You, better than anyone, know how I feel and you, more than anyone, are to be credited with being the sort of constant and caring friend who can risk the friendship to treat and heal the sickness. Thank you for being that sort of friend to me.
Shar, thank you. As you and I discussed at another place last night, there is no justification for Hanoi Jane's actions...none. And the insensitivity and ignorance shown here, in that attempt to excuse and rationalize them, was highly offensive.
But you have not hurt me, and I appreciate your kind words, as well as those of others.
You mean, all the fine arguments ( agreed upon and disagreed) that you have made over the last couple of years that I have been reading and you are not a "Real Poster"
posted on September 23, 2000 08:37:36 AM new
Hi GF and Hellcat,
Uh, hate to say this hellcat, GF but I was referring to "swinging" as in "swinging on a swing set with the grandchildren" but the other swinging might be a little more entertaining or maybe not.
posted on September 23, 2000 09:59:47 AM new
As the resident hippie and peacenik I would like to say that there is a world of difference between wanting peace or an end to
a war and consorting (and giving support and comfort) with the enemy (and other treasonous acts) that Hanoi Jane saw fit to do at that tender young age of 35!!!
I had many friends and a couple relatives over there and one dear friend is now "on the Memorial Wall". His family never fully recovered from their loss. I also, to this day, have friends that did come home but were never the same. Some tried to drown the nightmares in drugs and alcohol, many are on psychiatric drugs to this day. I worked in a place where I met many fine young men whose lives were altered and some were shattered.
To read this makes me ill. The only thing that Jane Fonda is deserving of is contempt. I saw an interview of her with Barbara Walters some years back (when she was riding high on the success of her excercise videos) and I realized then she was screwed up. She is NOT someone anyone should admire. What she stands for, not just in her disgusting behavior in Nam but in her everyday life since is so very shallow and self centered. Out of all the GREAT women we had in the 20th century, how the hell could anyone choose her!! From treasoness, to bulimic actress self absorbed with her appearance, to exercize junkie (still self absorbed with her appearance), to the silicone enhanced moguls' wife (still self absorbed with her appearance) and the "finer things in life" - she is a vapid waste of space.
Has she done anything to atone for what she did (other than to be a self absorbed numbskull)? She dumped the politician hubby but I am sure during that period she could have done something for our fine men and women who fought in Nam. She is a colossal waste. Now, excuse me while I type an email to the editor of LHJ and voice my disgust.
posted on September 23, 2000 10:09:05 AM new
A self-appointed Pied Piper playing the recorded songs of others. Naiveté is alive and well. A revelation is imminent.
As for Jane Fonda? She should be honored for nothing.She has never done anything since that could erase the damage she did. Exercise guru? How ridiculous...........
I would say thanks for the memories,but I wouldn't be sincere.
edited to remove personal information...it has been here long enough.
[ edited by rawbunzel on Sep 25, 2000 11:36 AM ]
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