posted on February 27, 2001 07:50:54 AM new"If you don't like their auction policies or terms, hit the back button, turn off your computer and go buy the same stuff retail."
How about this in response:
If you want to act like you're a mail order business and make your profit off excessive "handling" charges, hit the back button, turn off your computer, and go sell your stuff through a mail-order catalog instead of at an auction.
Just a thought....
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 08:07:31 AM new
pcalton,
Is the "way it is" the way it should be, or could be? Are you saying to sellers who wish ebay could be a more consumer-friendly place, that they do not belonging, or worse, are not allowed to try to institute change?
I think you are taking the concept of breaking down costs much too literally; No one expects or wants itemization. Buyers would be happy if you did the following:
X to postage
Y to shipping materials/costs
Again, no-one wants an itemized breakdown. Another way of doing it, would be to say $4.00 shipping, First Class Shipping used. That way, there is no confusion that some of those charges are in fact handling and or profit, and the buyer knows the amount is not for priority.
Such disclosure gives the buyer instant information to help with the decision to bid or not to bid. For some reason, some sellers don't WANT the bidders to have that info. I can think of only unscrupulous reasons of why this would be so.
My, and others, point is that it should be upfront, and bidders should not need to e-mail and ask.
This concept is SO simple, I cannot understand the backlash; the only thing I can think of is that these folks know if the postage vs handling charge breakdown were revealed, they would lose bidders. Instead, they get the bidders, end up with unhappy buyers, and then the rest of us get the "benefit" of these buyers not coming back to ebay to shop, decreasing the overall buyer base.
My conclusion is that anyone who makes the bidders unhappy are in the long run, hurting my sales, and that does not make me happy.
Edited to correct grammar.
[ edited by oxford on Feb 27, 2001 08:11 AM ]
[ edited by oxford on Feb 27, 2001 08:13 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 08:30:05 AM new
I tried this method at first. It worked when you only have 5 items sitting in inventory.
It also worked before the MASSIVE Postal Fee Increase.
But when you 200+ varied and different items waiting to be listed,
all of different weights, measurements etc it becomes a logistics nightmare. One extra sheet of foam or bubble wrap can push the package over the 2lb mark and postage jumps to over $5. Too many packages ended up going out costing $5.15 - $5.95 with only $4.95 being collected from the buyer.
Now we weight the item when it comes in and add a certain weight amount equal to a box and packing materials and then round up a few cents. The item will fall into either of:
$3.95
$4.95
$5.95
$6.95 etc
A lot of times a $5.95 s/h quote will only cost $5.15 in actual postage. Will have to look at the fianl accounting to see if WE are getting financially screwed on shipping overhead. Meanwhile we listen to OUR customers, not board posters. Not a single complaint about our shipping charges or policies. It's interesting to note that the Billpoint Invoice does not allow for seperate fields for shipping and handling. Just one field for both. A random survey of a dozen shopping carts and a dozen catalog order forms also show the shipping and handling being quoted as a single item.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:43:35 AM new
Sellers and bidders are playing what amounts to a partisan game of who gets to control the auction business as far as shipping and handling charges.
In a word(or two), this is utter nonsense. The seller decides the terms and the bidder decides whether or not those terms are sufficient to make a bid. An auction seller is not required to disclose how he operates his business anymore than other types of sales businesses. If you want to query a seller as to his practice, fine. If you think that a dollar of profit has to be made according to your ethical standards, you're entitled to limit your choices to sellers who measure up, go ahead.
Personally I view this as a puerile need to control others and I simply won't do it. If I don't like the way someone does business, I just move on. There's no way I have time to analyze someone's business costs to determine if their charges are fair or not. If the total price is good, great. Otherwise I look elsewhere.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:45:19 AM new
YEE GADS! It is not unethical to earn profits through shipping. The total price the buyer pays is what is important, not where the profits come from.
Buyer...stop trying to micro-manage a seller's business. Look at the total price you will pay for an item and decide if it is worth it to you.
Barry...selling on ebay IS mail order. The auction format is just a gimmick...a way to make mail order a little more interesting since the buyer gets to set his own price...but it is still mail order.
Oxford...IMO, the posts here are not representative of the general ebay population. I doubt if there are many buyers leaving ebay over these imaginary unethical practices. And those who are would probably have left anyway, they just needed an excuse to hang their hat on.
In my auctions I do not break down the shipping charge, nor have I stated the method of shipping. My shipping charge is close to priority rate. I state a shipping (NOT postage)charge in my auctions and that is what the buyer pays, no more or less. I state it thusly...buyer pays $4.50 shipping and insurance. I haven't seen any backlash from those practices. I have over 3000 positive feedback. My sales continue to increase every year.
I'm not saying my way is the only way, but it does work. It isn't driving customers away. Those customers who don't like my method are free to find a seller who does things the way they like...there are plenty of sellers out there, a buyer can find someone they are more comfortable with. I know I can't please everyone and I don't try....nor do I spend any time worrying about those who chose not to do business with me as there are plenty of buyers too.
Personally, I don't see this as an "ethical" issue...it seems more like a control issue. If all the sellers were to suddenly handle their shipping as some of the posters here want them to, then those same posters would find something else to #*!@ about...they would probably start complaining about the profit ratio instead!
posted on February 27, 2001 08:54:39 AM newmballai-
If I don't like the way someone does business, I just move on.... If the total price is good, great. Otherwise I look elsewhere.
If you don't stop posting in such a common-sense manner, you'll surely kill this thread.
amy-
If all the sellers were to suddenly handle their shipping as some of the posters here want them to, then those same posters would find something else to #*!@ about...
Probably something about how long and involved all the TOS's are, and that they don't have time to read a page and a half of shipping details for every auction listing.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:00:22 AM new
the word should suggests a rigid concept I try to stay away from - I know I don't like getting "should" on.
on the other hand, could is a concept agreeable to my personality offering more flexibility and choice.
I have found for myself that I have little control over how others choose to do business. I can report them, if they are breaking laws or rules but I have no immediate, ethical or legal power to make them stop or start their marketing strategies or specific terms of service no matter how I feel about what they are doing.
I do prefer to sell most on sites that have less scammers. And, I do feel that there is some reflection on me by the kinds of sellers I am around.
I do have power over how I choose to do business and do my very best to be honest, ethical, helpful and profitable while delivering the best possible merchandise and services I can. If others choose to borrow or copy some of my strategies and principles, I guess "change" could be "instituted" as a result of my example.
Unfortunately, I feel that the scammers and crooks on the internet will maintain a constant presence as they do in the real world. I am not a crime fighter, I am a business person. My philosophy is that I need to do the best I can at my business and work toward standing out as a seller that people want to do business with.
One formula that may work for some sellers is....
[b]X to postage
Y to shipping materials/costs[/b]
Those who choose the above formula find it works best for them and I offer no backlash.
That is not the formula that I have chosen - a flat rate works fine for me and my customers - and because it is backed up with my understanding of ethics, integrity, honesty, and commitment to customer satisfaction I would hope that it too could be spared the backlash from sellers who do it differently.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:02:11 AM new
Charge whatever you like for shipping, if I want the item I'll pay it, if it's too high I'll wait until another comes along.
Any reason why sellers can't put in their TOS what is included in the shipping price so I don't have to email them?
"$4.00 s/h, first class mail." Now I know that if I want priority and/or insurance I'm going to have to pay more.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:09:44 AM new
I'm just imagining the above sellers on the floor having a tantrum, screaming "I'm not gonna tell you how I'm shipping or how much the postage costs, and ya ain't gonna make me!"
Unbelievable!
It is an ethics issue - the buyers are not trying to "control" the sellers - what crap. They just want to know what the shipping amount is for - how much to postage - how much is handling and/or they want to know the shipping method, so they can make an INFORMED decision to bid or not to bid.
THAT's IT! Geez, is that such a terrible request?
At least we are getting to the crux of it now. Some sellers don't want to tell. Why is that? Some misguided notion that they are somehow being "controlled"? That is some scary way of thinking. How about thinking it is just good customer service?
posted on February 27, 2001 09:14:05 AM new"Barry...selling on ebay IS mail order. The auction format is just a gimmick...a way to make mail order a little more interesting since the buyer gets to set his own price...but it is still mail order."
As I said in a previous thread, Amy, just because SOME swimmers choose to pee in the community pool doesn't suddenly make it a toilet. And just because SOME sellers have chosen to treat on-line auctions as if they were running a mail-order business doesn't make it one, either.
It has nothing to do with bidders wanting to "micro-manage" a seller's business. We just don't like being lied to or scammed. You want to sell a widget for $5? Fine -- sell it for $5! But don't tell the bidder that you are "only" selling it for $0.01 and then make up the difference with a tacked on $4.99 "handling" charge that you don't even have to pay eBay fees on. That's deceptive to the bidder AND to eBay, whether or not you personally see it as an "ethical" issue or not.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Feb 27, 2001 09:15 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 09:21:25 AM new
anyone wanting to ignore the comments of specific posters, simply click on their User ID next to their post and find the
"Ignore all Message Center posts by XXXXX
click on the "ignore" and you will not have to read their comments.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:22:49 AM new
OXFORD:
I Do listen to my buyers. And they don't complain about S/H.
I charge a flat $2.95 the postage is generally under $1. NO Complaints from Real customers, none, nada, zero, in 5000 + transactions.
There are a few vocal gadflys on this board that have a bizzare, nearly religous fixation thinking that one of the ten commands state that you are not permitted profit from S/H.
I could never undestand why putting a 1 ounce item in a priority mail box and charging $3.95 is better than putting it in a small box and charging $2.95 when the postage is $1.
First class mail and priority mail move at the same speed.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:42:40 AM new
Barry...no matter how you cut it, no matter how much you stomp and scream that ebay is NOT mail order..it IS! Sellers on ebay have to abide by the laws that govern MAIL ODRER BUSINESS. From the little guy who is just selling for a hobby (you?) to the big retail merchants, and all of us in between...we are all involved in mail order commerce. It is commerce and it IS conducted through the mail. Everyone of us sends the merchandise by some form of mail carrier...that makes us mail order. We are not selling out of a physical store...that makes us mail order. And it has nothing to do with peeing in a pool
And no matter how you cut it, what was described in the opening post is NOT a scam. All the historonics in the world is not going to change that.
When you buy that $300 antique pocket watch on ebay for 50% of what you would have to pay a b&m store, you got a great buy. Dosen't matter if the seller started the auction at 1 cent and built $5, $10 of his profit into the shipping charge, or if he started it $10 higher...either way you got a BARGAIN. Doesn't matter if it was sent priority or first class...you got a bargain.
You did not get "ripped" because the seller listed the shipping as $4 and only paid $1.50 postage. No matter how much you want to deny it, shipping includes MORE than just postage.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:53:16 AM new
eBay buyers have the choice to bid or not- seller's options are much more limited in this area. Maybe one solution to the shipping/handling problem would be for eBay to require each bidder to designate him/herself as either "High Maintenance" or "Low Maintenance" and develop an approprite icon to go along with the user name. That way, sellers would have half a chance of knowing what they were getting themselves into when they get bids.
posted on February 27, 2001 10:08:47 AM newAmy: No matter how you cut it, no matter how much SOME sellers try and justify their deceptive practices by claiming that ebay is mail order... it ISN'T!
When was the last time you ordered something from a mail-order catalog, only to be told that somebody else offered the company more money and that you will have to offer more money yourself you you still want the item?
The point of an auction is that the final bid price can and often is set by the bidders, not the seller. The seller either starts the bidding high and risks bidders not being interested, or else starts it low and risks that the price won't go high enough. But that's a risk that tens of thousands of legitimate sellers run all the time on eBay, and it's what an on-line auction is all about.
SOME sellers, however, choose to use eBay in a way that it was never intended to be used -- as a retail outlet for fixed-price items. And then they feel perfectly justified in using deceptive business practices and taking on inflated "shipping" or "handling" charges because that is how "mail order businesses" do thing.
Again, just because SOME sellers choose to abuse the system and treat eBay as if it were a retail mail order business instead of an auciton doesn't make it one, and the rest of us eBay users are getting a little tired of people peeing in our pool and declaring it to therefore be a toilet.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 10:38:38 AM new
Before I bid on an item I check the shipping amount and consider that part of the cost of the item. If the shipping plus the current bid is more than I care to pay, I click away BUT if I want the item I don't care about the shipping. To me it is all about the end total that I pay for that widget. I personally don't care if the seller makes money on the shipping - I just want my doggone widget!
This is a free society. We are all free to choose what to buy, where to shop, and who to buy from. If a seller has a widget you want and you aren't happy he will make $1 on the shippping, then click away. Someone else will happily take that widget!
Now, do you all realize how upset you are getting because someone is making a dollar or two off of shipping? Let's put it in perspective here: what is a dollar worth today? A soda - it even costs more than 2 bucks for a pack of cigarettes. At $1 profit on shipping you just paid the seller for his time in packaging, filling out paperwork, etc.
Maybe I understand a little better because I have been a brick and mortar business owner for over 20 years - I have been to the school of hard knocks.
And, while I have you all mad at me - for those of you still mad at PayPal for charging 1.9 percent of each sale, the cc company I have at my store just increased the cost of me accepting charges here by 4 PERCENT! Oh, and they increased my monthly fee, too.
If only you guys would realize what you have here ....
posted on February 27, 2001 10:40:10 AM new
In my experience, bidders do NOT want to know what method I ship with or the amount of their postage that goes for shipping and handling.
When they get their EOA, they find out what method I use. I do not break down how much is shipping and handling--in over 800 auctions I have never been asked about this. Rarely I am asked if the book is sent bookrate: most bidders do not know that Special Standard or Media Mail is bookrate.
Twice I have discovered that they need the item faster, so we adjusted the amount accordingly.
There are books that I charge 3.50-4.00 to ship because they are heavy, not because I scam anyone. No one has ever complained.
FWIW I once sent something Parcel Post that I had intended to send Priority. It was just too expensive to go Priority for the amount I charged. I said nothing. The bidder was very happy anyway.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:55:08 PM newIf eBay isn't just dressed-up mail order, how the heck do you explain "Buy It Now"?
Well, let's see... Last week I listed 5 antique pocket watches together as a lot. I figured they SHOULD sell for about $500, but that they would probably actually go for about $350. At the same time, though, I HOPED they would sell in the $750 range.
So, rather than use a reserve, I decided to list the lot with a starting bid of $49.99 and a Buy It Now price of $750. When the bidding hit $350, I was satisfied. When it passed $500, I was happy. When it went to $800, I was ecstactic. And when it finally closed at $1025, I fell off my chair in a state of stunned bewilderment.
If this were simply a "dressed-up mail order", I would have either sold the lot for $750 or not at all. Because it was an auction, however, multiple bidders drove the price much higher than I had expected or even hoped. The fact that I provided the bidders an OPTION to end the auction early and buy the lot at a fixed price didn't change the essential nature of the auction itself.
When you buy from a mail order catalog or store, the price is fixed, period. There is no chance that a competing bidder will raise the price on you.
Oh -- and I decided to waive all shipping fees on this auction since it did much better than expected. I figured it was the least I could do.
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 01:00:46 PM new
congrats on the great watch sale, I love throwing in a bonus or two like free shipping, etc....
pcalton
Perry Calton [email protected]
http://www.pcalton.com
posted on February 27, 2001 01:10:47 PM new
WANT TO SEE SOME OUTRAGEOUS SHIPPING FEES?
Try looking on most of the auctions for laptop memory. A small set of chips with a weight of maybe a pound and they charge anywhere from $15-30 for shipping via airmail. It's very bad at concerning this and I don't know why eBay doesn't do something about this (OK maybe I do know why).
posted on February 27, 2001 01:31:51 PM new
mrssantaclaus
Before I bid on an item I check the shipping amount and consider that part of the cost of the item. If the shipping plus the current bid is more than I care to pay, I click away BUT if I want the item I don't care about the shipping. To me it is all about the end total that I pay for that widget. I personally don't care if the seller makes money on the shipping - I just want my doggone widget!
posted on February 27, 2001 01:46:35 PM newIf this were simply a "dressed-up mail order", I would have either sold the lot for $750 or not at all.
Whether it's fixed-price or an auction format, it's still mail order. And eBay is becoming more traditional B2C mail order and less person-to-person every day.
And even though I don't agree with it and I don't really like it, I think eBay management prefers it that way.
posted on February 27, 2001 02:07:24 PM new
Barry...fixed price is NOT what makes it mail order. Ebay is mail order with an auction format.
Argue till your blue in the face..it's still mail order. The IRS thinks I'm mail order. The state of California thinks I have a mail order business. But Godzillatemple thinks I'm not. Who to believe?
posted on February 27, 2001 02:51:52 PM new"Argue till your blue in the face..it's still mail order. The IRS thinks I'm mail order. The state of California thinks I have a mail order business."
I guess you're right -- it is mail order. Well, except for the fact that bidders don't actually "order" anything and have to instead compete against other bidders.
The point is not what YOU consider yourself to be, Amy. Nor is it what the state of California, the IRS, or the Grand Poobah of All Things Related to the Internet thinks, either. The point is bidder expectation, plain and simple.
Argue till your blue in the face. Most bidder's still come to eBay thinking they are bidding at an auction and not buying from a retail mail-order business. As a result, they don't expect to pay inflated "handling" charges on the stuff they bid on the way they might with a traditional mail-order business. And when sellers fail to disclose that they are, in fact, adding on a handling charge that is above and beyond the actual shipping charge, they are being deceptive.
Play word games all you want, Amy. Justify it however you want so you can feel better about yourself. Sure, you can call yourself a mail-order business if you want to get technical about it, but keep in mind that you are a DIFFERENT sort of "mail order business" than those which have traditionally gotten away with using handling fees to generate their profit. THOSE businesses sell fixed price merchandise, and that really is the difference between them and ebay.
So yes, maybe you are a mail order business. But you are not a fixed price mail order business as long as you are selling in an auction format where the ultimate price is set by the bidders competing against each other. And if you [meaning sellers in general] are going to charge inflated handling fees anyway, at least have the decency to inform the bidder of that fact. Even "traditional" mail order businesses say that they charge "shipping and handing" instead of hiding behind the purposely ambiguous term "shipping".
Why do you think so many sellers hesitate to use the word "handling"? It's because they KNOW that bidders don't expect to pay handling at an eBay auction and will rebel against the idea. Why do you think so many sellers IN THIS VERY THREAD refuse to state the form of shipping they plan on using? It's because they don't want the bidders to figure out that they are being charged an inflated handling fee.
Bottom line [and again, this is not directed at you in particular] -- bidders neither expect nor welcome inflated handling fees on eBay, but if you're going to charge such fees anyway at least be honest and up front about it.
Regards,
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Feb 27, 2001 02:55 PM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 03:18:48 PM new
godzillatemple,
you bring up a very good point about the word handling
I never use the word in my listings. I charge a flat rate for shipping on everything I sell. That flat rate includes most of my costs associated with shipping. I do not charge actual postage rates because I need to cover my shipping cost, not make a profit on shipping.
In my particular case, my cost above postage varies on each package that I send. And, the flat rate approach works best for me and my customers.
To me, "handling" suggests that I am padding the shipping costs to get a profit and that is Not the case in my business. Businesses that do choose shipping as a profit center are practicing a basic business principle and get no complaint from me because I will not buy from them if the shipping cost plus the sale price is higher than what I want to pay.
posted on February 27, 2001 03:35:13 PM new
I don't call it "handling" either -- because I don't make any profit on it at all.
I use Priority Mail for anything over 13 oz. and charge exact postage for those items.
Under 13 oz., I use First Class and I round up the estimated postage to the next 25 or 50 cents, which covers my cost for a brand new box, tape, label, etc. Sometimes I underestimate postage and come up a few cents short on my end.
But when all is said and done, it all evens out.
My exact shipping charge and method of shipping are listed in each and every auction.
