posted on February 27, 2001 03:38:28 PM new
I've got to say, Barry, I envy your ability to convey thought! All I can say is, I agree!!
pcalton,
do you object to stating what form of shipping you are using? If not, then you are agreeing with what the bidders are asking for. If so, then why?
I use a fixed rate as well, and let the bidder know the method of shipment. I make no profit on shipping, but do charge for some materials (no free priority in Canada). My materials charges range between .50 and a dollar. Again, bidders are not against covering a sellers basic postage and material costs as long as the shipping method is stated and/or the materials cost is clear.
I wouldn't trust ANY seller who does not disclose in their auctions, or at least by e-mail, the form of shipping they plan to use. Why not make it easier for the customer, and just state it in the auction? IMO, an ethical seller would NOT be afraid of doing that.
posted on February 27, 2001 03:50:36 PM new
Well- it seems that folks are changing their tune...that's OK!
Oxford, you started out saying:
********
The buyers are saying over and over again that:
1) They DON'T LIKE a flat fee without explanation of what it covers EXACTLY
2) They DON'T LIKE profit made at the shipping end - please don't use the excuse that it is to keep your prices low "for the customer" - it is to keep your prices low to lure the customer to buy your product over someone who is making their profit on the item rather than the shipping, as it should be!
************
That I would disagree with. I don't think sellers need to explain exactly what a flat s/h fee covers. And I don't believe that there is a groundswell among buyers to get a breakdown of what it covers. In thousands of sales, I've never had an inquiry like that, in fact, my bidders appreciate a fixed s/h because they know exactly how much they will pay. Nor have I had a single complaint that s/h was larger than the postage cost.
I also don't see anything inappropriate in recovering incidental costs via a handling fee.
But now, it seems all you're asking is that sellers let bidders know what method of shipping they plan to use.
THAT I agree with- I think it's a good business practice.
posted on February 27, 2001 04:14:11 PM new
Barry...I think you are playing with semantics.
If what you meant was...the buyer doesn't see ebay as mail order..then say it. But you just kept saying ebay IS NOT mail order. It is mail order. The perception of certain bidders doesn't change that fact. Yes, it is a gimmicky type of mail order, I will agree with that. I believe I stated that earlier. But that is not what you have been saying...you kept insisting it is not mail order.
As for the bidder's perception...I don't think you have read it right. I think most buyers DO look at the total of bid price and shipping and base their decisions on that total. I think most buyers do not even look at the postage on the box when they recieve their package...because they don't sweat the postage costs. They know a seller needs to cover their shipping costs and as long as the total is good they are happy.
I think most buyers know they are either getting a bargain, even with "excessive" handling fees, or are very happy to pay that fee for the convenience shopping on ebay gives them.
I think "excessive" handling fees are in the eyes of the beholder. And I also believe there are people out there who will find something to gripe about no matter what the seller does.
I think most buyers are delighted that their item gets to them in undamaged condition and is exactly as described in the auction.
And I also think it is over dramatic to say that people using the word "shipping" are deceptive. I think it is bad form to call other sellers unethical or dishonest because they don't list the method of shipping or because they make a couple dollars off the handling charge.
I also think that when you really look at it, most of us who are charging a handling fee, even a hidden one, are still not recovering ALL the shipping costs we incur. Rather than making a profit on shipping, most of us are losing money on that side of our business.
The cold hard facts are....the buyers normally get great bargains on ebay, even with the so called "excessive" handling fees.
posted on February 27, 2001 04:24:36 PM new
"Setting a fixed amount that is so close to priority rate many buyers think the seller is mailing priority "Shipping is $4.00."
You're right, I'll start charging $5 so buyers aren't so confused, then they'll know I'm getting a more fair amount for my handling costs.
posted on February 27, 2001 04:42:24 PM new
As a buyer on Sunday I emailed a seller who had some brooches up for auction, at the time with a high bid of a little over 13.00,and asked how much to ship to me here in Ontario. Because there was one brooch my grand daughter would have loved. I got my answer back today Feb 27th, 9.00 plus 2.00 for insurance. Excessive????? I think so. Out of touch seller, I think so, her auction ended Sunday night and she wants me to send her 24.99 by money order, but needless to say I was not her bidder. If shipping costs does not show or I cannot reach the seller, I do not bid. It is always a treat to buy from a seller who sets out realistic costs, or tells the weight so we can figure it out ourselves.
posted on February 27, 2001 05:06:05 PM new
When my friends in a newsgroup were chatting about telltale signs of sleazy sellers on eBay, inflated shipping charges was mentioned. Two days ago someone posted a link to an eBay seller who had three lots of old U.S. coins for sale. This seller went overboard to tell bidders that "shipping and handling is $22" on a single silver dollar sent first class mail. His next two lots said that shipping was free, but there was a handling charge of $40 for one and $65 on the other.
Lots of bidders must have asked him questions. A few reported him to eBay Safe Harbor. The seller responded to my question saying that he should be entitled to any handling charge he chooses if bidders agree to it. He claims he is paid $100/hr. to dangle from a rope with a chainsaw 90 feet above the ground, and his employer tells the customers that is a "handling charge"
I think eBay has NARUd him ("not a registered user" for these auctions, which he said were a sacrifical protest against eBay allowing bigtime sellers to continue misrepresenting their merchandise and, so that eBay can rack up fees.
Sorry if this is off topic, but I had to put in the most extreme shipping and handling charges I've found.
posted on February 27, 2001 05:25:29 PM new
If I didn't know better I would say that OXFORD, REBELGUNS, and GODZILLATEMPLE are TROLLS!! This is bizarre. We have just under 3000 feedbacks, sell antiques and collectibles in a true auction format (low minimum, no reserve), and charge a fixed amount for shipping clearly stated in the description. Hopefully this amount is always well over the actual shipping charge but it is clearly stated. Any potential bidder can simply look at the current bid price, add the shipping to it, and decide if he still wants to bid. This must be OK because we have had only one or two questions about shipping and NEVER have we received a negative, let alone one about shipping prices. These are facts. If over 3000 buyers have not been concerned then what is the issue?? In fact, I believe there are some businesses that make most of their profit off of shipping. More power to them. What is wrong with that if the buyer is satisfied and eBay fee avoidance is not an issue? Again, this thread must have been started by a troll because there does not, in the real world, seem to be an issue here. Only one or two vociferous beings (perhaps trolls) on Auction Watch. Also, for the most part concur with all the comments of MBALLAI, PCALTON, CIX,and AMY.
Edited to add names to the "trolls if I didn't know better" list.
posted on February 27, 2001 06:03:30 PM new
ccex - your example is right on target. Those are the kind of shipping charges that fall in the "gouge" category.
But people here on AW continue to moan about a couple of bucks over actual postage... which is hardly gouging. Does anyone here really expect to get a widget for a quarter? Of course, the seller has to make the money somewhere -- or else he or she won't be in business for long. Starting auctions at a quarter and charging $4.99 for shipping is a GIMMICK. And in some categories, I can see why it's a necessary gimmick. I'm fortunate that I don't sell in those categories.
I don't mind paying a little extra for shipping, if the item gets to me safely and on time -- which are the two things that really matter.
posted on February 27, 2001 06:05:57 PM new
Is this the same thread or is it just me?
I think its funny that whenever a seller makes a valid point on this thread, or board for that matter, bidders are all of a sudden quiet.
That brings me to another point. One of my first transactions I bid on an item and the guy charged OUTRAGEOUS prices to ship it to me via UPS only. The auction stated "buyer pays actual shipping charges."
I asked the seller why he was charging so much and he explained that where he lived, there was not a UPS drop off anywhere and he had to got to Mailbox ETC. and they lay on a bunch of fees on top of the price.
I paid for it (it was a keyboard) and got my item fine and was happy with it and I understood that not everyone can ship the same item for the same price.
The same goes where I live now. I almost moved to a different city in the desert close to here because the houses are really cheap ($100,000) but they did not have a post office. The mail was brought in from a mail truck and they did not accept packages so you had to drive to the closest post office. If I wanted to ship anything I would have had to drive 25 miles to the closest post office so I did not take the house.
Lets say I did take the house. My gas would have had to been part of my S&H. There are lots of small areas in the country where hard working men and woman grow up in who may be selling online to feed their families and may not have a choice on their S&H prices! Everything varies!
I have had the same argument about the word "Rare." I may have something rare and maybe in a store in NY they have a bunch of the same thing in their used record pile. I have had someone argue with me before "I seen that item here in NY, its not rare!" Rare does not mean unavailble it means that its rare, hard to come by. So, maybe in NY its easy to pick up, but not in London or Utah.
As I said before, this argument about shipping rates can't be applied to all situations at all times. Some sellers rip off people, but some charge high rates and have no choice in what they charge!
posted on February 27, 2001 06:08:43 PM new
By the way, I saw a keychain laser pointer on eBay the other day for $0.99 and the shippin was for $3.99. The item was selling as a "Clearance item."
I checked their past auctions they charged $3.99 for the same laser pointer and the shipping was $0.99.
To me, that is gouging!
[ edited by digitalmaster on Feb 27, 2001 06:10 PM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 06:20:57 PM new
Hi Steve,
I really haven't changed my tune - I still believe that buyers do not like either of those things (profit from shipping/handling and unexplained shipping costs) however, giving the type of shipping would give them enough info., IMO, to determine if either of those 2 conditions exists!
I don't believe I've changed what I'm trying to say, but I do think maybe some are starting to understand me!
I have said from the very beginning that the tools the bidder needs to determine if he/she will be happy with the shipping costs AFTER the sale, is to know what they truly are before the sale. Again, this information is provided by giving the method of shipping.
posted on February 27, 2001 06:25:55 PM newI think its funny that whenever a seller makes a valid point on this thread, or board for that matter, bidders are all of a sudden quiet.
Well, I can't speak for others, but I just finished making/eating supper! Now I'm going to go get dessert out of the oven. See y'all later....
posted on February 27, 2001 06:33:46 PM new
Sellers: As a buyer I want to know HOW MUCH shipping and handling will be. Yes, I understand that some items are hard to judge. When that is the case, a weight and a zip code (and how much your handling charge is) would give me a good enough idea.
Why is it so hard to say, "Shipping (OR Shipping AND handling) is $XX.xx for ......*whatever method you are shipping it*"?
If the item is being shipped priority I know when I can expect it.....if it is being shipped first class, I know when to expect it.
Why is that so hard?
Edited to add: I've got no problem paying a handling charge AS LONG AS I KNOW WHAT IT IS AND how long it will take me to get my item.
posted on February 27, 2001 07:22:30 PM new
oxford,
it appears that you are addressing me when you stated the following...
I wouldn't trust ANY seller who does not disclose in their auctions, or at least by e-mail, the form of shipping they plan to use. Why not make it easier for the customer, and just state it in the auction? IMO, an ethical seller would NOT be afraid of doing that.
if you are implying that I do not inform the buyers how I ship that it obvious you have jumped to a conclusion that is incorrect.
posted on February 27, 2001 07:24:34 PM newEdited to add: I've got no problem paying a handling charge AS LONG AS I KNOW WHAT IT IS AND how long it will take me to get my item.
I think most shoppers feel the way lotsafuzz does. I know I do -- and I do a LOT of shopping on the internet.
I don't even care if the items says "priority" or "first class" as long as it gives me a time frame --three day delivery, two day air, overnight --whatever it is.
When I'm buying, I just want to know I'm going to get it safely and how long it will take to arrive. I can judge from the timeframe how fair I think the shipping charge is. I was doing it before eBay existed and I'll be doing it whenever the next online shopping fad comes along.
posted on February 27, 2001 07:35:16 PM newAmy: I think you are playing with semantics. You can argue until you are blue, green or purple in the face, but that doesn't mean that selling on ebay is the same as selling through traditional mail-order businesses. You can't simply say "they are both forms of mail order business and therefore everything about them is the same".
In fact, traditional mail order businesses sell fixed price items, and buyers are accustomed to paying them "handling" fees. eBay, on the other hand, while it may be a FORM of "mail order business" is still an auction where the prices are NOT fixed and where most bidders do NOT expect to pay handling fees. And, until fairly recently, most sellers didn't charge them, either.
Once again, if a seller is going to charge a handling fee to make your profit [and I'm not talking about shipping costs here], it should be clearly identified as such. regardless of whether you want to play word games as to whether eBay is "really" a mail order business or not, the "cold hard fact" [gee -- don't you just love that term when applied to an opinion?] is that charging an excessive handling fee and calling it "shipping" so as not to offend the bidder is deceptive, plain and simple.
digitalmaster: " think its funny that whenever a seller makes a valid point on this thread, or board for that matter, bidders are all of a sudden quiet."
Hmmmm.... Well, let's see. It could be that (a) it became dinnertime, (b) some people access the Internet from work and have left for the day, (c) some people actually have a life that doesn't revolve around sitting at the computer all day long arguing with people, or (d) a seller has yet to make a valid point on this thread. I'll let you guess which answer I personally think is the most likely....
Oh, and now for answer (e): Some of us go to bed early here on the East Coast. G'night!
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 07:47:38 PM neweBay, on the other hand, while it may be a FORM of "mail order business" is still an auction where the prices are NOT fixed and where most bidders do NOT expect to pay handling fees.
The fixed price vs auction argument doesn't hold. eBay is mail order. A buyer/bidder "orders" the item with their bid (or by clicking on the fixed-price "Buy It Now" button). The seller mails it or ships it via an alternative service, such as UPS or FedEx.
That's mail order.
As to handling fees, bidders at B&M auction houses expect to pay a handling fee --- except it's called a buyer's premium.
As eBay continues to move from the person-to-person "let's play auction and have a community" venue to a B2C "let's play auction and do business" venue, expect to see more handling fees, not fewer.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:05:48 PM new
Online Auction are Mail Order businesses.
True all bidders on the auction may not be placeing an order at the time of the bid inless they are useing buy it now or dutch auction.
But the winner of an auction is placeing a bid they are agreeing to pay shipping cost not postage cost.
There Item WIll be shipped buy mail or freight of some type be it USPS UPS fedex bus train or camel.
I have to packageing the item and ship it.
I run a mail order business no different really only difference is the price of my Items are set by the bidders and not in a book.
either way I pay one price for the items I sell them for mark up, buyer send me money I ship item out in the mail
Mail order been in the packing shipping business for near 20 years auctions are mail order winners of auction are placeing an order they are even setting the price they are willing to pay for the item.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:06:28 PM neweBay, on the other hand, while it may be a FORM of "mail order business" is still an auction where the prices are NOT fixed and where most bidders do NOT expect to pay handling fees.
Perhaps because buyers are not familiar with how real auctions really work? The image below is a portion of an invoice I received in the mail today from a reputable auction firm (which has been in business many years longer than eBay has been in existance) for the one lot on which I had the winning bid.
This was a mail bid auction (for me, anyway- bidders could also bid in person, over the phone or online), and the item in question is a coin which can reasonably and safely shipped in a bubble mailer for $0.55 (insurance extra).
Their entire TOS regarding S/H charges reads:
"Purchaser agrees to promptly pay, on demand, postage, handling and insurance."
By the reasoning of some of the posters here, I should be charging them with "scamming" for the excessive amount I am being asked to pay. I don't think I will.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:10:04 PM new
TO EVERYONE WHO THINKS THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PAY HANDLING FEES. WHEN YOU BUY OFF THE TV OR MAIL-ORDER THE SHIPPING FEE IS ALWAYS ALMOST DOUBLE WHAT THE ACTUAL COST IS. BUT I BET YOU DON'T CALL THEM AND ARGUE THAT THE SHIPPING COST IS TO HI, DO YOU? THINK THAT BECAUSE IT IS A EBAY AUCTION AND A INDIVIDUAL PERSON AND NOT A COMPANY YOU SHOULD GET IT CHEAPER. AMERICANS LOVE TO GIVE MONEY TO CORPORATIONS BUT NOT THE LITTLE GUY. IF YOU ARE THAT CHEEP YOU GO BUY A LITTLE BAG OF PEANUTS AT STAPLES FOR 7.00 DOLLARS OR SO OR DIG THROUGH SOME ONES GARBAGE TO SAVE YOU CHEAPSKATES SOME MONEY LOOKING FOR USED PACKING!!! GO TO A YARD SALE OR BUY SOME WHERE ELSE THEN.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:14:30 PM new
Barry...you said "And, until fairly recently, most sellers didn't charge them, either." in reference to handling charges.
I have to apologize to you as I was unaware that you had suffered from amnesia. I guess that is why you made the above comment...either that or you have conveniently forgotten ALL the other times this same subject has come up here at AW. I have been posting on AW since the fall of 1998. This subject, handling charges, has come up over and over and over again in the past 26 months.
You show as having been here on AW for almost two years. In that time YOU have taken part in many of these same discussions. You complained about so many sellers charging handling charges then just as your complaining now. Sellers charging handling charges is nothing new...it has been going on for three years that I know of (I wasn't on ebay before that)...and from the conversations I saw on Q&A and hers back then it was obvious it had been going on long before I got on ebay.
What is interesting is that in the last three years ebay has continued to grow, the buyers HAVEN'T left, and the HANDLING CARGES HAVE NOT GONE AWAY!
Barry, the argument was lost a long time ago. Handling charges are here to stay. They arrived years ago and are no worse today than they were three/four years ago. Calling sellers names isn't going to change it.
Take my advice...stop banging your head against this brick wall. Handling charges are not going away.
posted on February 28, 2001 05:41:43 AM newAmy: I have to apologize to you as I was unaware that you were suffering from hallucinations. The subject of handling may have been mentioned on a rare occasion over the last few years here on AW, but those WERE rare occasions until recently.
As for me, I have only "taken part in many of these same discussions" for the least 6 months months or so. Before that time, there simply weren't any big discussions on the subject that I am aware of. It simply wasn't that big of an issue because the practice of charging excessive handling fees wasn't that widespread on eBay.
In recent months, the number of complaints here at AW about handling charges on eBay has skyrocketed. This indicates that (a) more sellers on eBay are starting to do what few did before, and (b) bidders aren't happy about it. And rather than passively accept that times are a changing and they should just accept the world as it is and move on, these bidders are putting up a fuss because they know this ISN'T the way things were, it ISN'T the way things should be, and it ISN'T the way they want things to be.
Feel free to declare yourself the victor and announce that the argument is over. All that does is show your insensitivity to the needs and desires of the bidders. It doesn't make you right, however.
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Feb 28, 2001 05:42 AM ]
for these auctions, which he said were a sacrifical protest against eBay allowing bigtime sellers to continue misrepresenting their merchandise and, so that eBay can rack up fees.
