posted on January 7, 2002 02:06:58 PM new
Please tell me what you would do. After 5 months, buyer requests refund on a $900.00 bronze, saying I misrepresented the item. I agreed to fully refund, but received it back in damaged condition from where she took it apart to see if it was spelter or bronze. The base is scraped up and it is now wobbly on its base. She won't pay the minimal charge for repainting the scratches, saying it's not damaged, and accusing me of trying to back out of the refund. I'm refunding because I did not have a time deadline for refunds in my listing, so feel obligated. But her hostility and accusations are just awful. What would you do?
Thanks,
Joette
posted on January 7, 2002 07:28:21 PM new
did you sell it on regular ebay or that great collections hosted by butterfield>i am not even sure it is still there any more?over there you have to refund when buyer finds out it is not as represented??
how did he pay?credit card??
is it true that buyer cannot do chargeback after 60 days??
posted on January 7, 2002 07:38:24 PM new
Appreciate the response so much! It was a regular eBay listing, and buyer paid with Paypal. If there is anything I need to know about chargebacks, please direct me. Are there any eBay guidelines on buyer's remorse after a certain length of time?
Thanks,
Joette
posted on January 7, 2002 08:26:04 PM new
this is a case where you will appreciate the ebay motto-we are just a venue!!!
ebay has no policy of when and how to refund your buyer.
you have to refer to paypal policy on refund-if she uses paypal fund in her account,then paypal seller protection and buyer protection program applies.,in your case ,paypal could say they dont get involved in quality or content issue.
but if she uses her credit card to pay via paupal,she could do a chargeback,but i dont know if she could do that after 5 months,i think it is 60 days unless it is a visa international transaction or involved the use of a visa card issued by a foreign bank,it can go as long as 7 years!!!!!!
thats VISA FOR YOU!!!!!!!
There are a lot of sellers who have more experience on chargebacks than i do,may be they could answer your question ,also the guy from paypal damon??
Chargeback issuance does depend on the card company, but most card companies use 60 days (as a general rule) for a user to file. PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process, which is separate from a chargeback, does require a user to file within 30 days. It also does not allow for merchandise quality disputes.
I am going to state that you are (more than likely) not going to suffer a chargeback because of the general time limits in place by the credit card companies.
posted on January 8, 2002 07:17:36 AM new
i have one piece of advice EMPTY your PAYPAL account ASAP because if they file a complaint PAYPAL will freeze ALL your funds and you will have no access to them at all until the "compliant" has been resolved even if you feel you are not at fault.
probably best to close your account personally I would because if you have your bank account on there they can access that also.
posted on January 8, 2002 11:22:33 AM new
Hi mrfoxy76,
Your information is incorrect. The transaction in question is isolated when there is a complaint/chargeback.
In addition, our terms of use do state that we will not access a user's bank account without their permission (save users that signed up after October 11,2001 for chargeback recovery, which is the only circumstance that would make this happen).
posted on January 8, 2002 12:31:12 PM new
the problem is that if you lost in a chargeback,you are liable for that amount.if you close your paypal account or never use it again,and move on to another service say billpoint,it could happen again,chargeback is what the retailer possibly face these days,now what,move to c2it,then amzn one click etc ect??
posted on January 8, 2002 02:31:41 PM new
From Joette.......Thanks to all 3 of you, very much. I don't think after 5 months that Paypal is an issue here. It is whether I should refund her or not. She's still sending hostile threatening emails, and I wonder if anyone's ever used eBay's Dispute Resolution? So desperate since it's $900.00.
Thanks,
Joette
posted on January 11, 2002 01:55:07 AM new
If the item isn't in the same condition as you sent it in .. Send the item back to her and tell her you won't refund. It's been 5 months, after that long, you don't offer a refund on an item of any value. If the item really was rep. wrong, then they should have emailed you 5 days after the auction, not 5 months .. Most credit card companies and even paypal won't even deal with the dispute, it's just been to long since it was done. Sent the item back (even pay shipping and make sure you get a signature) and tell the buyer your sorry, but the item isn't in the same condition and the transaction is way over.
posted on January 11, 2002 09:06:22 AM new
since the amount is 900 and item in question is a bronze statue-
not everyone knows how to tell bronze from other alloys/metal,these days there are bronze like statues made with resin inside and bronze finish outside ,it is referred to as bronze finish.
there is also what looks like bronze but contains less copper,this is made in indonesia ,could be thailand or anywhere the maker wants to save money.
folks who know how to cast bronze often ask question as to size and weight of bronze statue to gauge if this is truly a bronze statue,but most individuals do not cast their own bronze to know enough to ask such question.
there is also this magnet test ,a quick way to tell.
if your buyer has pryed open the statue to do some testing after 5 months,i would say this person has no consideration for the seller,is he a reseller?could it be possible that he finally sold the statue for more than 900 and his customer is the one who pried open the statue and demanded a refund,in this situation he/she is desperate in getting the refund from you,irregardless of time and condition.
how about asking her to shop kmart in the near future?/
posted on January 11, 2002 09:35:17 AM new
THANKS to all who responded...you are so very kind! I have now requested Dispute Resolution through Square Deal. I tried again to make a generous offer to buy back the statue at $150 more than I even paid for it, or to return it to buyer with $55.00 postage refund, but she wants bigger refund. So I am using the Square Deal Mediator, by whose resolution we are both agreeing to comply. Wish me luck, and I'll let you know how it turns out, for your future similar concerns.
Appreciate you all,
Joette
posted on January 12, 2002 08:58:08 PM new
This sounds like she broke it, and then she decides to ask for a refund. It sounds like her fault. I mean, does it really take 5 months to look at an item and find out whether it was represented right by the auction?
In terms of chargebacks, since it way after the time limit expired for a chargeback, you won't be liable. Just the same, I'd empty your PayPal account anyway just as a precaution. It is completely your decision whether to give them the refund or not.
[ edited by andrew123s on Jan 12, 2002 09:01 PM ]
posted on February 1, 2002 09:19:07 PM new
Hi Folks...........thanks for asking. I said I'd let you know, and should have done that over a week ago. Yes, I do recommend SQUARE TRADE. Their person was fair, and very responsive. There were chances along each step of the way to stop the dispute resolution or continue it, and I received copies of all information given by the other person up to the point they officially stepped in. I'm the one that went to Square Trade, so it cost me $15.00, and it was worth it.
After I turned it over to them, the buyer sent me a calm email with a dollar offer she would accept. I replied with my offer, and she began whining some more, so I thought ENOUGH! and told them to continue the resolution. After that she couldn't harrass me anymore. It turned out that she ended up accepting my original pre-whining offer. As the mediator said, it was unfortunate that my knee-jerk reaction was to tell her in writing (by email) to return the bronze for a refund, which she did. They indicated that I hadn't any obligation to have done that after 5 months, and I now know it's true and of course wish I hadn't. So now I have the bronze to repair and resell, while the buyer is out about $275. My profit will be less than if this hadn't occurred, but it's not all lost like it would have been if I hadn't used Square Trade. As for the buyer, yeah, I think she tried to sell it and couldn't....didn't wait long enough for the right buyer is all. She's supposedly an antique dealer and should know you must have patience in that business, especially with an upscale item like a huge bronze statue. Then she damaged it taking it apart, and didn't tell me, then tried to accuse me of trickery when I asked for less than $50 in repair cost off her refund. So she pushed it too far, and in my opinion, lost in that effort.
But I know I screwed up in agreeing to any refund at all after 5 months, and now on every listing, I say refund available within 10 days after shipping date. So good luck to you all, and thanks for all your good advice and opinions...it helped me think things out.
posted on February 1, 2002 10:11:09 PM new
you said she is an antique dealer.
no antique dealer will destroy her own merchandise like that-it is more likely she sold it and her customer pried open and returned it.
posted on February 6, 2002 12:39:12 PM new
the reseller may have a brick and mortar shop and have no choice but issue refund if she has a refund policy posted in hershop,or customer makes a big scene and cause other customers to leave or CUSTOMER DOES CHARGEBACK.
if she bot it for 900,you can bet she sold it at least for a 1000.
posted on February 6, 2002 07:45:51 PM new
Yes, it's possible that something like one of those scenarios may have occurred, because I don't think I got the truth from her at any time. She shouldn't have asked for a refund, and I shouldn't have agreed. Just glad I got out of it OK. Although I do things by the Golden Rule, some others certainly do not. This has been so very stressful, but I'll keep on ebaying. I'll have to be more sceptical of others, and I reined in my guarantee to 10 days instead of showing no limit. You are all so very kind; your support has meant a lot to me.
posted on February 14, 2002 05:01:06 AM new
Joette, I'd be scared away by a 10 day return... especially 10 days from ship date... if you use UPS ground then that's like 2-3 days from the time I get it... I think you should give either more reasonable 30 days or at least 10 days from receipt of item...
posted on February 14, 2002 07:03:24 AM new
Good Morning,
Thanks for the suggestion. You're probably right, and I'll expand that. I sure don't want to scare people off. I see a lot of AS IS & No Returns & bad feedback threats & extreme wordiness in listings, and wonder how those seller fare, because I sure don't bid with them no matter how much I would like to bid.
Appreciate it,
Joette
~~~~~~
posted on February 14, 2002 07:20:32 AM new
10 day return policy is actually rather generous,7 days return is more common.
or 3 days after receipt of merchandise.
how long does it take for the buyer to decide he does not want to keep the item??
posted on February 24, 2002 09:22:29 AM new
i had a buyer out of california that uses multiple email address and handles do a chargeback after 4 months in propay they sucked the money out of my account instantly even though I have 500.00 opn deposit with them to cover chargebacks they say visa will allow chargebacks up to at least 6 months This is Bull it would be a good idea to bring the visa thing in line with the uniform commercial code. one of the handles used by this person made it sound like she was law enforcement crtdeputy
posted on February 25, 2002 05:24:15 AM new
From what I understand this customer appears to be unreasonable and wrong. Since the time is 5 months after the purchase... my advice to you right now is..
CLOSE YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT IMMEDIATELY. THEY POSSIBLY WILL MERCILESSLY FREEZE YOUR ACCOUNT AND REVERSE THIS TRANSACTION. IT HAPPENED TO ME ALTHOUGH FOR A MUCH SMALLER AMOUNT. NOT ONLY THAT, THEY POSSIBLY WILL MAKE YOUR ACCOUNT RESTRICTED CLEAN YOUR BALANCE AND NEVER RESPOND TO YOUR EMAILS.
Also, I think you are being too nice with this buyre.. I think you should be firm and tell the buyre that you simply will not refund after 5months of the transaction. Period. If they want to take you to court, thats fine too because I think you will win. If buyer threatens to take you to court,tell her that you will file a countersuit to recover legal costs associated with defense of the first..
posted on February 26, 2002 01:18:43 AM new
Hi rmantha,
The information you are posting is incorrect. A chargeback is typically granted to consumers that file within 60 days (the credit card company approves all chargebacks. And they can make exceptions).
The timeframe for a chargeback has probably elapsed for the user.
posted on February 26, 2002 09:53:49 AM new
Thanks to you all again. This has been a heart-wrenching experience for me, but as I said earlier, it ended OK, given the circumstances.
PAYPAL chargeback never came into question...after all, it had been 5 months, and the industry standard is 60 days, I understand.
I hope that all these replies have been helpful to others who may experience similar challenges. The main lessons for me were to
QUIT BEING SO GENEROUS & TRUSTING...........and to
PUT A DEADLINE ON GUARANTEED RETURNS.
posted on February 26, 2002 12:07:11 PM new
as of today propay still holding 500.00 and the chargeback meanwhile I sent them the customers own signature accepting the m,erchandise she has not returned aftera 4 month later charge back am now up to 3 handles the chargeback lady nelson has any suggestions ? propay has been ok to this point but I am becoming concerned
posted on February 27, 2002 09:08:31 AM new
propays latest answer while the customer has both my money and the product customer using indntify c and c, mountain man, and ctrdeputy, ctrldeputy, the ups tracking people said when i called them for the proof Which propay has and still jacking me around, god not another one from her, apparently this gem has many cklaims that she does not have to pay for her things
any how heres propays l;atest excuse, bear in miond that they also are holding 500.00 of mine as a deposit against potential charge backs
It takes 45 days for the funds to be released back into your ProPay account.
The reason for this is because the bank gives it's account holder 45 days to
dispute the charge again. Please make sure that you make every effort to
contact the customer so that they know that these charges are coming back
through. As long as the account holder does not dispute the charge s a
second time, then those funds will be released into your ProPay account at
that time. If you have any other questions please let me know. Thank you
very much.
As far as your reserve is concerned that is there only if you refuse to pay
the chargeback amount, and your available account is negative. This did not
make your account negative.
Also, This chargeback as I am sure you know s not done by ProPay. It is the
cardholders legal right to dispute a charge on their credit card. That is
beyond the control of ProPay.
Best Regards,
what a wonderful response, 45 days in the day and age of computers ? yeah right the fact is is that a decision should be made now. this is really the hidden cost of dealing with these fly by night companies like most of the so called credit card processors. there is nothing that even remotely resembles an anti fraud dept or a customer service dept. Can you honestly expect that someone cheating you will simply not accept the charge again of course not. an Idiotic policy designed to allow the biggest fraud on the net the scamming of small sellers and users.
posted on February 27, 2002 09:25:44 AM new
here is the latest from them notice that my questions are now being answered with a form letter.
I am sorry however that is one of the risks that all people who choose to
have a merchant account take. It is the responsibility of the merchant
(yourself) to prove that they had authorization to charge the card. In the
agreement that you acknowledged when you applied it stated that you would
need to have paper documentation if requested to prove the sale. It is not
ProPay that has the say in this. I sent off the representment and now it is
up to the credit card company.
I am sorry that this has happened to you, however ProPay is not Liable.
Please read below:
>From Terms and agreements Section 1 part 4b
"Chargebacks. You are fully liable to ProPay for all transactions returned
to ProPay for whatever reason, otherwise known as "chargebacks". You will
pay ProPay on demand the value of all chargebacks. You agree to accept for
chargeback and will be liable to ProPay in the amount of any sale for which
the cardholder disputes the validity of the sale. You authorize ProPay to
offset from incoming transactions and to debit the Member Clearing Account,
the Reserve Account, or any other account held at member or at another
financial institution the amount of all chargebacks. You will fully
cooperate with ProPay in complying with the Rules regarding chargebacks.
Guarantors are personally liable for all chargebacks. ProPay may suspend
accepting Sales Transmittals or depositing funds represented by Sales
Transmittals into the ProPay Account until you reimburse ProPay for all
Unpaid Chargebacks. "
>From Terms and agreements Section 1 Part 6a
Establishment and Authority. You will establish and maintain a checking
account to facilitate payment for Card transactions ("Checking Account".
You irrevocably authorize ProPay to debit the Checking Account for
chargebacks, and for fees and any other penalties or payments you owe ProPay
under this Agreement.
>From Terms and agreements Section 1 Part 8a
Fees. You will pay ProPay fees for services in accordance with the attached
Schedule of Fees that is incorporated into this Agreement by reference.
ProPay will, at its discretion, pay such fees. Such fees will be calculated
and debited from the ProPay Account at least once each business day or month
for the previous business day's or month's activity, or will be netted out
from the funds due you under this Agreement. ProPay may adjust the fees in
accordance with Section IV.2.I below.
Services
Fees
Account application
FREE
Account setup
$35.00
Monthly maintenance
FREE
Online reports
FREE
Pay to an e-mail address
FREE
Add Funds from bank account
FREE
Add Funds from credit card
3.5% of transaction plus $.35
Get Paid by credit card
3.5% of transaction plus $.35
Refund a credit card
$.35
Electronic check (ACH)
$.35
Beam Cash between ProPay accounts
FREE
Beam Cash from a credit card
3.5% of transaction plus $.35
Incidentals
Fees
Chargeback on a credit card
$15.00
Return fee on electronic check (ACH) transfers
$10.00
Non-sufficient funds (negative balances in ProPay account)
$20.00
Retrieval requests
$10.00
Investigations
$10.00
If you have any other questions please let me know. Thank you
Best Regards,
Jessica
Resolutions Department
ProPay
-----Original Message-----
From: outpostflags [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:42 AM
To: Resolutions
Subject: Re: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
this is really bogus did I not make my self crystal clear on this the
customer is a theif of course they will screw around like this, where is the
consideration for the rights of the honest person being ripped off ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Resolutions" <[email protected]>
To: "outpostflags" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> It takes 45 days for the funds to be released back into your ProPay
account.
> The reason for this is because the bank gives it's account holder 45 days
to
> dispute the charge again. Please make sure that you make every effort to
> contact the customer so that they know that these charges are coming back
> through. As long as the account holder does not dispute the charge s a
> second time, then those funds will be released into your ProPay account at
> that time. If you have any other questions please let me know. Thank you
> very much.
>
> As far as your reserve is concerned that is there only if you refuse to
pay
> the chargeback amount, and your available account is negative. This did
not
> make your account negative.
>
> Also, This chargeback as I am sure you know s not done by ProPay. It is
the
> cardholders legal right to dispute a charge on their credit card. That is
> beyond the control of ProPay.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jessica
> Resolutions Department
> ProPay
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: outpostflags [mailto[email protected]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 1:04 PM
> To: Resolutions
> Subject: Re: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
>
>
> I am waiting on this I am going to post the results at auctionwatch. 4
> months later with a signed delivery confirmation is entirely
unaccepatable,
> further this was taken from my account when I have hundreds of dollars on
> deposit with you in case of chargebacks. I am not real happy with this
right
> now get on the stick. this person is stealing from me.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Resolutions" <[email protected]>
> To: "outpostflags" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 3:14 PM
> Subject: RE: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
>
>
> > I just received that mail yesterday. The representment will go out
> tomorrow.
> > I will let you know the statues as I hear it. Thank you
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Jessica
> > Resolutions Department
> > ProPay
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: outpostflags [mailto[email protected]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 12:53 PM
> > To: Resolutions
> > Subject: Re: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> >
> >
> > I have mailed the documentation requested what is the status ?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Resolutions" <[email protected]>
> > To: "outpostflags" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 5:48 PM
> > Subject: RE: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> >
> >
> > > Cardholders have at the very least 6 months to dispute a charge. That
> is
> > > visa law. Please send the documentation that I requested and I will do
> > > whatever I can to get this resolved in your favor. Thank you
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Jessica
> > > Resolutions Department
> > > ProPay
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: outpostflags [mailto[email protected]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 4:51 PM
> > > To: Resolutions
> > > Subject: Re: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> > >
> > >
> > > what I am saying is this this person could have chargd back in
november
> > > decmeber and in january now 4 months later ? we sent her her items
> > American
> > > flags while it was almost impossible to get a flag ar far less than
they
> > > were selling fopr and we can prove we sent them to her we should not
be
> > > getting ripped off like this.If this charge is allowed to srand I will
> > > atempt to file theft charges on her and I will also want the addresses
> of
> > > any and all agencies that regulate these transactions
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Resolutions" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "outpostflags" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 12:23 PM
> > > Subject: RE: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> > >
> > >
> > > > I understand if that is what you need to do for your business.
> Remember
> > > > though that the chargeback procedure is universal, meaning that it
> will
> > be
> > > > this way with any merchant account that you have. Just keep that in
> > mind.
> > > >
> > > > Best Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Jessica
> > > > Resolutions Department
> > > > ProPay
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: outpostflags [mailto[email protected]]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 11:25 AM
> > > > To: Resolutions
> > > > Subject: Re: ProPay Chargeback - Please Read Immediately
> > > >
> > > >
.
