posted on April 15, 2001 03:44:18 PM new
"It was your responsibility to write the seller before bidding to inquire charges and/or shipping methods. By not doing so, by default, you have agreed to unknown terms."
"unknown terms"....LOL. If you believe sellers can charge additional fees that were not stated in the auction description, you should email your comments to safeharbor. I'm sure they can use a good laugh.
posted on April 15, 2001 03:51:45 PM new
sasoony: If auction description only states "buyer to pay s/h/i;" therefore, by placing a bid, one would be agreeing to undisclosed terms. Where are the additional fees?
posted on April 15, 2001 03:57:17 PM new
Clevergirl,
Let me point out that the seller NEVER indicated the handling charge was $15.00. THAT was darcy's assumption based on the way SHE would pack the item.
There are STILL a lot of assumptions being made her...for all we know, the seller might be shipping them individually. After all, darcy won 8 separate auctions and the seller might not want to combine the shipping.
posted on April 15, 2001 04:05:25 PM new
morgantown; If the description states shipping/handling/insurance, I'm sure everyone would agree the buyer is obligated to pay the "undisclosed" handling fees. The point being that handling fees were specified in the description.
If the seller states "shipping" in the description and then adds handling fees when the auction is over, this is ADDING fees/terms.
posted on April 15, 2001 04:26:20 PM new
It also depends on the weight of each plate. Some plates weigh next to nothing and others are surprisingly heavy.
I have purchased from sellers with low feedback who are totally clueless about packing but then others look like they have done it forever. I don't think it hurts to ask in a nice way about the packaging.
Also the seller may have figured the rate wrong or is just doing an estimate?
posted on April 15, 2001 04:53:47 PM new
Personally I find buyers who email me first, then give me detailed instructions on how I should run my business,[as in packing MY merchandise] to be a pain in the ass.
You want special packing, then ask for it in advance, and find out what that EXTRA packing is going to cost.
The last person who did this was politely told that as soon as I had triple boxed their item, I would send the NEW shipping amount. They decided to let me ship it the way I was originally going to, [for the price quoted in my auction] and like always, it arrived unscathed.
posted on April 15, 2001 04:54:19 PM new"If auction description only states "buyer to pay s/h/i;" therefore, by placing a bid, one would be agreeing to undisclosed terms." - morgantown
Just wanted to point out the converse of this - if the seller selects See item description for shipping charges and does not in his description mention "Buyer pays shipping" then I as a buyer have NOT agreed to pay ANY shipping charges.
When the buyer places a bid, he is agreeing to the seller's terms as stated in the auction listing. As morgantown mentions, just the initials "s/h/i" can put the buyer on the hook for the shipping charges, and if the exact amount isn't stated, the buyer's agreeing to undisclosed terms - generally not a good idea. But if the auction page is silent on the point of who pays shipping, then the assumption might just as easily be made that it's up to the seller.
Not that this is necessarily the case in the instance, just wanted to point it out.
posted on April 15, 2001 07:07:08 PM new
Actually the seller hasnt got a Excessive shipping rate at all .
check out the Online shipping calulators
USPS $35.15 express delivery for 10 to 11 LBS package.
fedex $23.40 for a 10 or 11 LBS package
UPS $27.50 for a 10 or 11 LBS package
the lowest rate it can be shipped for and only if your in the same Zone as the buyer.
is $9.00 Parcel post through USPS.
MY guess is that this seller will be packing each dish in its own box then boxing all 10 boxes in a biger box with boxes and packageing bring the shipping wieght to more like 14 to 16 pound Insureing for the price of your bids and the cost of your postage.
add Insurance DC and to then you come closer to the $35 shipping price they .
and they are more then likely tacking on $2 or $3 handleing charge.
When you tey to second guess how others do things they can get very blown out of shape.
posted on April 16, 2001 01:05:13 AM new
"Seller's who put up auctions for one dollar and don't do their research on what they are selling are sellers who possess very little skills. Then when the items don't sell for much, to try to make up the difference with excessive charges is a bit too much."
Uhha, and buyers who bid on items without knowing the shipping costs, and not asking, then turning around and complaining because the costs are too high possesses very little skills.
You still haven't substantiated that the seller is charging excessively. I can't think of a single service that doesn't charge more for better value. I could see you at a pricey hotel. You:"Your $300 a night is too much." Them:"Then why did you stay here?"You:"You didn't put the price anywhere in view before I entered." Them:"We're a five star hotel ma'me. You:"You're just trying to recoup your construction costs for this excessively fine mable, chandeliers and fine paintings. You should have known it would add to the price to a room." Them:"Please, someone kill me."
posted on April 16, 2001 03:54:46 AM new
You will notice that these sellers do not have any problem stating the shipping charges in their email when they are notifying the bidder with the total payment.
I buy and sell online, on a daily basis and I would not consider listing an item without stating the exact shipping/handling/insurance charges.
Avoid these sellers who use these underhanded tactics. They do not deserve your business.
>If he doesn't know the "exact shipping", he is going to estimate the cost and add it to the final bid price before he ships. He should state this "estimate" in the description not in his email after the auction is over
ROTFLMAO
Ok, what kind of "estimate" do I put on a 65 lb. item to a (at the time) unknown destination? No offence intended, but any item that weighs more than 5 lbs. (or is shipped by someone other than USPS) can't have a exact shipping price listed in the listing, as exact shipping depends on the destination, and that isn't known till the snipers are done with the auction.
So what you are saying is anyone who say's exact shipping is some how scamming you if they don't put a price tag on it ahead of time? I don't think so.
>You will notice that these sellers do not have any problem stating the shipping charges in their email when they are notifying the bidder with the total payment.
I have a problem stating shipping charges on heavier items until the buyer sends me an address. Point is you are trying to paint everything with the same brush.
[ edited by Microbes on Apr 16, 2001 05:50 AM ]
posted on April 16, 2001 06:00:34 AM new
Some of the very best deals on eBay are from sellers who are new and do not state their shipping charges--unless they won't answer their email. However, new sellers are often the most risky to deal with.
To my way of thinking, an excessive shipping charge is one that makes the total cost of buying something higher than you can get the same thing elsewhere. This happens all the time on eBay...
posted on April 16, 2001 01:33:39 PM new
DarcyW, I can see that you are conflicted.
On the one hand, a good deal on the plates! On the other hand, it was only a good deal because the seller is "incompetent."
On the one hand, a s/h/i charge which you have decided is too high, although you really don't know how much of it is actual shipping and insurance charge. On the other hand, you (an experienced eBay user) failed to follow the most basic eBay newbie rule: if you have any questions, ask.
On the one hand, you would have paid "way more" for these plates (I'm guessing "way more" exceeds the $15 that you assume is the handling portion of the s/h/i charge). On the other hand, you took it upon yourself to dictate packaging methods and supplies to the seller, assuming that the seller would not package properly (by your defined standards), rather than inquiring as to the seller's intentions for packaging, OR the planned charges.
On the one hand, you further highlight your disdain for this seller by throwing your 'collector's organization' (HCIF?) into the mix...this group whose membership you describe as in the "thousands", the force of whom (collectively) you obliquely suggest you will bring to bear on this awful seller via 'blacklist' for failure to meet certain 'standards'. On the other hand, HCIF's own website puts their membership at about 500+, and references no such 'standards'.
On the one hand, much is being made of the seller's failure to specify exact s/h/i charges in the auction description. On the other hand, ummmm...neither do you, in your auctions.
So much conflict, a virtual inner war. Must be difficult.
By the way, the TOS you quoted from the "new" seller's auctions is, nearly word-for-misspelled word, the TOS of highly-regarded seller of (mostly) fine china and silver tableware on eBay. A seller who has a feedback of over 350, who uses AW to launch her auctions, including their image hosting services which replace large pictures with clickable thumbnails. Naturally, it wouldn't be the first time that a newbie 'borrowed' another seller's TOS, but it's sad that they couldn't at least do a better job of cleaning up the spelling, grammar and punctuation.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:13:28 PM newferncreek: "...but it's sad that they couldn't at least do a better job of cleaning up the spelling, grammar and punctuation."
posted on April 16, 2001 11:35:11 PM new
[3] "I contact the seller with my info and request that the seller use bubble wrap and packaging peanuts since the plates are 19th century." You asked for "bubble wrap and packaging peanuts," that is a special request. It was perhaps out of the realm of normalcy for that seller. You should pay for said special request - including their time and inconvenience. Furthermore, 19th Century, so what? Twenty-nine cent sold at Woolworth, Homer Laughlin Harlequin Animals [$150.00+] are more valuable than MOST 19th Century china! All items should be packed carefully. BTW, I have NEVER used bubble wrap since selling on eBay beginning early 1997. I have shipped entire sets of Fiesta, and antique dinnerware without problems. Bubble wrap and peanuts are an unnecessary expense if one is a professional packer.
[4] "This morning I hear back from the seller who says shipping, handling and insurance for the eight plates will be $35. Huh? The cost of all eight plates is under $100..." This one always urks me! What the heck does ending bid price have to do with shipping costs? It is a common train of thought on eBay that shows a definite lack processing. Example: 50lb antique brick sells for $5,000.00. Shipping is $250 - no problem. Same [could happen] 50lb antique brick sells for $25. Shipping is $250.00 - BIG problem. How come, you get same antique brick?
morgantown...... you are sooooooo right on!
[ edited by immykidsmom on Apr 16, 2001 11:40 PM ]
posted on April 17, 2001 04:04:25 AM new
"I have a problem stating shipping charges on heavier items until the buyer sends me an address. Point is you are trying to paint everything with the same brush."<<<<<<
I'm not inclined to qualify my comments with obvious exceptions. I'm sure most bidders would understand why you would not specify the shipping costs for a 65pd item until you know the destination.
The vast majority of these listings you see without specifying the shipping/handling fee are for items that weigh 5 pounds or less. One seller tried to charge me $5 to for a singe sportscard that can be sent for the price of an envelope and a stamp.
SafeHarbor has ruled in my favor over every dispute I've had with sellers who did not specify the shipping charges in the description.
If Darcy contacted SafeHarbor, I can all but guarantee they would inform the seller that Darcy is only obligated to pay the exact shipping/insurance fee.
posted on April 17, 2001 04:56:08 AM new
"One seller tried to charge me $5 to for a singe sportscard that can be sent for the price of an envelope and a stamp."
You do not just want to put a ballcard in a reg. envelope. All too often I received ballcards in this shape where the toploader tears through the envelope and the card is dangling out. It has been a miracle that none have been lost or seriously damaged.
Proper shipping of ballcards would entail sleeve, toploader, then tape the top of toploader, then put in team bag, then bubble envelope. For single cards cost varies between $1.50-$2.00. When I see that a seller doesn't charge that range for shipping, I am pretty sure he is not going to use a bubble envelope and I pass on the auction.
$5.00 is way excessive. If the seller is sending a ballcard priority odds are you want to pass because they'll all too often throw the card down in the box and send like that. The card isn't secured, even if it does have the toploader, etc, because it is being tossed around the box in movement. First class is the best way to send them in bubble envelope. Only time you should go with priority is with boxes of ballcards but never singles.
posted on April 17, 2001 04:56:16 AM new
CleverGirl:
The more I read this thread, the more I have to say
>$15 is an OUTRAGEOUS charge for handling and even if they had Mailboxes Etc. do the packing, I'm still thinking that's high.
If they have Mailboxes Etc. do it, $15.00 won't cover it. I don't claim to know anything about the particulairs of packing China, but I charge $20.00 every time I pack a boat motor for shipment, and am considering raising this to $25.00. (Actual material I use cost about $15-16, which leaves me $4.00 for a job that takes almost an hour to do right.)
>IMO you should NOT pay this seller a dime until you get a much better feel for how they arrived at this.
IMHO it is NOT the sellers responsability to take the buyer in hand, and itemize "how they arrived at this." Hold up paying me because you want me to waste 20 minutes explaining to you why I get $20.00 for packing a boat motor, and you will not go on my "favorite buyers list", but my "pain in the butt list". Refuse to pay, I'll help NARU you.
>I'm also concerned about how experienced they are at packing, even with your instructions.
Ever have somebody stand right behind you watching you work? Did you like it? I hate having a customer wanting to watch me fix his outboard.
>I wouldn't leave it to chance. The fact that you got a great deal doesn't diminish your right to reasonable shipping and "handling" and an assurance of safe packing.
This is a two edged sword. Buy from someone who charges "postage only", and you are "leaving it to chance". Pay a "handling charge" and then the seller has NO EXCUSE for poor packing.
>Personally (this is what I would do, not necessarily what I'm suggesting you do), I would tell the seller I find the shipping and handling outragerous (or unreasonable, etc.)
When someone complains to me about the $20.00 for packing a boat motor (maybe twice out of over 100 outboards), I offer to ship it simply "Wrapped in cardboard". UPS WILL take it like that, BUT they add a $8.00 handling fee of their own, and you have NO insurance. Neither of the yoyos who complained took me up on this.
> point to my feedback to indicate my experience in these matters,
As the saying goes, "what does this have to do with the price of tea in china?"
> remind them (IF they are indeed new) that ebay has a provision in its policies against excessive handling charges as "fee avoidance."
So what. Did you ever see what the post office gets for s&h on ebay? Lots of complaints, but they are still selling on ebay.
>And ask for an explanation.
ie. waste $15.00 worth of the sellers time to "get even"?
>I'd include my (that is your) estimate of postage on the plates, and I might outline (as you did) how simple and quick it is to package them properly and well.
I'd say the seller was in a better position to "estimate postage on the plates"
And I'd probably say something to the effect that I'm just not willing to pay handling charges that high (in the "unreasonable" range) when that wasn't specified in the auction.
I will have to agree with PART of what you say here, it should have been in the listing. I list s&h on an outboard motor as "UPS charges plus $20.00 for packing and handling", BUT if it isn't you should either email and ask, or take a pass on the auction. As for what is "in the "unreasonable" range", again, look at the USPS auctions. Ebay lets 'em run dispite many complaints.
>I have to warn you though. I had a seller try to impose high handling charges on a sale a while back -- not THIS high tho -- and when I faced him down, I never heard back from him, which was fine with me at that point. Too embarrassed, I guess (and rightly so).
posted on April 17, 2001 08:26:53 AM new
There are two possibilities here:
1) You bid knowing in advance what the shipping & handling charges are. By definition they are not "too high". After all, why would ANYONE bid on an auction with S&H charges that are too high? Common sense dictates that by bidding, the bidder considers the charges to be reasonable.
2) You bid WITHOUT knowing what the exact S&H charges are. In this case, they are NOT "too high" even if they are 10 times the actual postage amount. After all, the S&H charges were so irrelevant to you that you didn't bother asking before bidding.
Whining after the fact makes no sense. It's time to consider the P&H charges your partial tuition to ebaY Universtity. I pay MY tuition from time to time and generally consider it money well spent. I rarely make the same mistake twice. And in the case of the original poster here, the mistake was YOURS, not the seller's.
posted on April 17, 2001 05:02:53 PM new
I think you might run up against eBay's fee avoidance rules, unless what you're shipping is that 50-lb brick ^^^ up there. Of course, it would make for an interesting TOS:
Hey! I'm planning to get $100 out of this auction! S/H/I costs will vary depending on the winning bid!
posted on April 17, 2001 05:14:13 PM new
I too feal this is a bit high for S/H I get all my shipping boxes from the USPS for free, the peanuts bubble wrap and other perks are also free from a local drug store i go by about oince a week and pick up more than i can use. I do all my shipping from here so they get the business and i get the free stuff.. Hey think about it everyone knows someone that can be of help if not ............... Man you need to get off the computer and go out more.... Hey i even sell stuff for other people and get a fee for the pix and time. This is a business where we all can make money, Just be honest and it will pay off ... stay cool...
posted on April 17, 2001 05:22:18 PM new
I've done extensive studies on free shipping and low shipping, and have noticed no increase in bidding. However, when I offered free shipping for a month, I did see an increase in emails inquiries. I even got a neg from one of them.
Since you're going to get the whining anyway, "where's my item?" you may as well charge the extra handling for your time answering shipping inquiries.
posted on April 17, 2001 06:17:46 PM new
impactdas:
>the peanuts bubble wrap and other perks are also free from a local drug
If you can get all the peanuts and bubble wrap you need for "free", you either are not using near as much of this stuff as I am, or you spend a lot of time "scrounging".
My time is worth money. We have one person in the house who spends probably 15 to 20 hours & $20.00 a week scrounging styrofoam (not peanuts, but blocks and sheets), and boxes (not for the heavy stuff, anything more than 25 lbs or so get a NEW box). What is this worth? (If you say nothing, ya better duck, cuz she has a nasty temper.)
Bubble wrap, tape, some of the boxes we use, etc. we pay for.
This all comes down to ebay fees. Ebay helps me sell this stuff, so they get a cut... No problem here. But Ebay does NOT help me pack and ship this stuff, and I will NOT pay them a cut on what it cost (in $ and time since the 2 are equal) to pack and ship the stuff.
How to keep from paying ebay a cut on the packing and shipping part of the transaction? Easy, don't include it as part of the sale price.
Don't want to shock the buyers and tick them off, again easy, include the handling charge in the auction description.
I can kinda understand Darcy's point about unstated handling fees, but in the case of seller not spelling it out, it is on the buyer to either email the seller and make them spell it out, or just pass on the auction. I mostly sell, but just a couple of weeks ago I saw something I wanted but the auction said simply "Buyer pays S&H". I emailed, gave my zip code, and asked how much was s&h. The answer was "I won't know till the auction is over". I didn't bid. If his answer had been $30 (I would have charged about $10 to $15 to most USA addresses for something this size / weight) I could have subtracted what I felt was "excessive" from what I wanted to pay, and still placed a bid, but I won't buy a pig in a poke.
posted on April 17, 2001 07:19:13 PM new
Well, microbes, you stick to packing boat motors. I know something about packing china and glass, and a $35 s/h fee for the group of plates IS outrageous, period. (And anyone who uses a packing service should specify that in the auction so bidders have some idea that the "handling fee" will be outrageous.) Also, packing a few china plates is very, very different from packing a boat motor.
Using the same standards, instead of raising your packing price to $25, you should raise it to about $75. THAT's how outrageous the $35 total is.
Also, read my post again. *I* didn't deadbeat on any sale -- the seller did when I asked for an accounting of his overly high shipping/handling fee.
I am sometimes surprised about the weight of some of the things I buy, but not all that often. And yes I will ALWAYS ask the seller if the charge is more than I estimated it was going to be. If they find it a pain to explain their charges, then they can outline them in the auction instead.
But I think I like kerrigirl's idea of charging outragoues handling fees and low minimum bids. I can sure see how addictive it is to add in a little extra to those profits. I'm currently self-insuring for many of my smaller sales because we've had so little breakage and only one lost package ever. It's an extra buck in my pocket, as a rule -- and I can really see how addictive it could be to pad those payments with nebulous and out of line "handling" fees.
Normally I won't BID on handling charge auctions. If others do, that's their loss (aka: stupidity) AFAIC. Very rarely I run across something I really want that has an unspecified handling charge -- but I browse the "ending today" auctions, which means there's not always time to get a response. Such untidy little realities about the wonderful world of ebay makes the admonition to "email seller with your questions before bidding" basically meaningless.
posted on April 17, 2001 07:26:51 PM new
Think whatever you like about the shipping charge, you didn't ask ahead of time so don't gripe after the fact.
If I received a letter asking me to explain how I arrived at my shipping charge, it's unlikely I would reply as well. Clearly not worth the hassle, as the buyer would not be satisfied with any explanation.
Not that an explanation is owed.
I'd let the sale drop, file for the necessary credits for a lost sale, and post negative feedback at the last possible moment.
posted on April 17, 2001 08:33:08 PM new
CleverGirl:
>Well, microbes, you stick to packing boat motors.
I will...
>packing a few china plates is very, very different from packing a boat motor.
I'm sure. You don't have to worry about making sure the china plates are TOTALY out of gas On the other hand, they are much more breakable. There must be some "trick" to it, it seems you (and others in this thread) are self proclaimed experts, and want to dictate to your sellers exactly how they pack this stuff.
>Using the same standards, instead of raising your packing price to $25, you should raise it to about $75. THAT's how outrageous the $35 total is.
It is? People in the catagory I sell in charge anywhere from a flat $30 s&h (I think they must lose money when they get a buyer on the other side of the country) to the "outragous" $75 packing fee. If I got the price for a hour of my time that I get when I repair a motor, $75 would be about right. The $25 I charge is dirt cheap. Walk in any boat yard in the country and ask what their labor rate is. Or for that matter, walk in any mailboxes etc, and see what it cost to have your china plates packed. Yes they get what seems to be a lot of money, but the days of people working for a few dollars an hour are over. Why shouldn't a seller get paid for his time spent packing your items? Time is Money. Build it into the price you say? Nah, then you pay ebay a cut on your labor packing and shipping stuff, something ebay doesn't help with, and is NOT intitled to.
>Also, read my post again. *I* didn't deadbeat on any sale -- the seller did when I asked for an accounting of his overly high shipping/handling fee.
I went back and re-read it. From where I sit, it looks like you gave the seller a hard time, and he gave up on the deal. I won't let a buyer get in an email war with me after an auction ends and waste hours of my time. Again, walk into any boat yard in America, and ask what their labor rate is. No one is going to waste hours of my time except ME. If you are one of those type bidders, I don't need your business, I can blow a deal off like this, spend my time on something productive, and wind up making MORE money.
>Normally I won't BID on handling charge auctions
If it is undisclosed, I won't either. If it's "Up Front", I don't care how high it is, I just subtract the s&h from my "mental maximum" and let 'er rip. Take a few seconds to do a little simple math, and you might get some good deals this way.
Who are you to put a price on someone elses labor? Let them price their own labor, and you can either pay or not.
>If they find it a pain to explain their charges, then they can outline them in the auction instead.
This I just don't understand. Why are you are not happy just knowing how much money it will cost. If you buy a new car, do you demand to know WHY that new Crown Vic is $23,000. Does Ford have to explain to you what they pay for iron, leather, WHY electric seats cost more than manual seats, etc.
>I browse the "ending today" auctions, which means there's not always time to get a response
So stop ebaying this way. I browse "New today" auctions, and bookmark anything I am interested in. I can ask any questions I need to, I can think before I bid, I have time to compare auctions, and when the time is right (about 2 seconds before the auctions ends) I'll bid.
I loved your analogy.