posted on May 7, 2001 03:20:02 PM new
OK, it's finally happened. Even I am sick and tired of the threads about excessive and/or deceptive "shipping" or "handling" charges. The people who use them will keep using them no matter what the bidders say, because they know they can get away with it. They have plenty of justifications and explanations [my favorite is when they try to compare eBay to a mail order catalog business], but the bottom line is that it works and these sellers are going to keep doing it. I used to think that this was only because not enough bidders complained, thereby LETTING these sellers get away with it. I've come to realize, however, that these sellers don't CARE if their bidders complain -- most couldn't care less about customer satisfaction or repeat business.
If anybody wants to read some of the recent threads on the subject:
posted on May 7, 2001 03:31:47 PM new
PaladinLvs...I think you have missed what I have been saying.
Using the "fish in the sea" was just a way of saying that not everyone will be unhappy with a certain term or lack of that term in a seller's auctions. Just as the buyer can go "fishing" for another seller who offers the terms the buyer wants...the seller can go "fishing" for the buyers who are happy with the terms he, the seller, decides to offer.
No one can satisfy ALL the buyers out there, so it is inevitable EVERY seller will encounter buyers who will be "aggravated" with the seller's terms and not bid on his auctions. And MOST times the seller will not know that buyer "boycotted" his auction.
As long as the seller is making the profit margin he wants then it doesn't matter that he has "agravated" some buyers. If the seller isn't making the profit margin he wants then he will look to what he is doing and change it until he achieves the desired profit margins/number of sales. Or he will go under.
The other point is...most buyers are not picky about these shipping cost matters. They take the shipping into account when they bid and they don't check the postage when they get their item. If the item is as described, got to them in good condition and in a decent amount of time, they are happy.
One size does not fit all. One "general" shipping TOS doesn't work for all. The sky won't fall or ebay go down the tubes because a seller doesn't list his handling, or only says "actual shipping" in his ad. and ebay isn't going to fold or a seller lose money because a FEW buyers decide they don't like his shipping TOS...because many, many, many more will find those same TOS satisfactory.
There are millions of people using ebay...this means there is something for everyone when it comes to seller styles and TOS. Everyone can find what makes him happy.
posted on May 7, 2001 03:36:03 PM newAs long as the seller is making the profit margin he wants then it doesn't matter that he has "agravated" some buyers
posted on May 7, 2001 03:38:28 PM new
"most couldn't care less about customer satisfaction or repeat business."
Barry...WAY to broad a brush!! You can't know what motivates another person to that degree.
Those who keep "doing it" are not getting away with anything...they just found the customers who were happy with their stlye and methods. And as you said...it is working for them so who are we to say they are wrong? Who are we to put them down and say they have bad customer service and poor repeat business?
posted on May 7, 2001 03:52:35 PM new
Barry...the only person who will be happy with a seller who tries to please everyone is that seller's doctor and the drug companies. That seller will be so stressed worrying about having "agravated" some nameless, faceless person who he will NEVER have contact with that his doctor will be getting rich treating his stress related illnesses and the drug companies will get rich supplying him with the drugs needed to treat his ills.
But...I can guarantee you, no matter how hard the seller tries, there will be some buyers who are agravated with him!
Its best to not worry about every possible thing you can do that might tick off some "potential" customer. Its best to give the customers you have the best possible service you can within the parameters of the TOS you have established that makes sense to you.
posted on May 7, 2001 04:41:10 PM new
Amy: All I can get from what you are saying is this. Sellers it is not worth your time to be concerned with genuinelly dissatisfied customers because there are millions of people dumb enough not to compare their shopping experiences on ebay with their shopping experiences elsewhere in the market. Understand this; I do not agree with you whatsoever!
<table border="0">
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"></font> </td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>Terms and Conditions of
Sale.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>1.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>GB£ and US$ cash
accepted.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>2.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>International buyers
can use PayPal.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>3.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>UK buyers can use
Nochex.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>4.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>Cheques drawn in
Sterling on UK banks accepted.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>5.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>US$ cheques or MO, but
please add $8 to cover UK bank charges.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>6.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>Shipping is $1 to
Europe and $3 World Wide by Air Mail.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>7.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>Combine silver lots and
pay only one shipping.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>8.</strong></font></td>
<td><font color="#0000FF"><strong>Please do not bid if
you are not happy with these Terms. Thanks.</strong></font></td>
</tr>
</table>
</center></div>
</body>
</html>
Impulsive buyers in general have more fun, and that may be the choice in their life, and I'm not going to call them dumb, as you have. I'm simply saying the impulsive buyers who bid without knowing the s/h and then complaining afterwards are dumb.
Actual shipping means the seller adds up all his costs that go into shipping the package including labor, and does not allow for profit. Fixed shipping means the seller charges a straight fee that is not related to exact costs, and may be excessive. Neither one allows room for a buyer to complain because the buyer doesn't know my costs when I check "actual shipping," my labor alone is $20 an hour for packaging, far cheaper than the $75/hr my mechanic charges. Theoretically I could charge $5 on top of what I currently do. Count your blessings for competiveness.
Besides, there shouldn't even be discussions on these threads about excessive shipping because either you knew the s/h before bidding, or chose not to know accepting whatever the amount given whether excessive or not.
posted on May 7, 2001 06:34:25 PM new
quickdraw29:
>Actual shipping means the seller adds up all his costs that go into shipping the package including labor, and does not allow for profit.
As a seller, I can fully understand what you are saying, BUT a reasonably minded buyer could look at "Actual shipping", and take it to mean "Actual Postage".
If you are going to charge above "Postage" (or Carrier fees), and I sure don't disagree that you are intitled to, I wouldn't use THAT term.
Why have a hassle with a buyer?
Why not just call it Shipping & Handling? Everybody (including ANY buyer who bothers to read your TOS) knows that if they pay Shipping & Handling, that it isn't going to match what is on the postage strip, or UPS's website.
I wish eBay would do away with the:
[X]Actual Shipping
Choice on their menu
Stop a lot of the "Excessive Shipping Charges" threads.
posted on May 7, 2001 06:40:20 PM new
Paladin, the message you should be receiving is that most buyers don't care to compare, and when they do compare they still won't switch.
Take Coke vs Pepsi. Taste tests have shown people like Pepsi better than Coke, yet still Coke has number one market share. Coke decides to make their formula taste better and the regular buyers revolt, forcing Coke to keep their origional formula.
Is Coke penalizing their regular buyers? No they're giving the buyers what they want. If Coke says "we'll switch the formula anyway to make it taste better because we know what's better for the people," then Coke may soon go out of business.
posted on May 7, 2001 07:30:23 PM new
PaladinLvs...then you have chosen to misshear what I have said
If I worried about all the complaints I see posted here on AW and attempted to tailor my TOS and selling style to satisfy all those various complaints I would have to...
1)Not use wallpaper in my ads 2) not use auction templates 3)not use animated gifs 4)not use music in my ads 5) not sell new merchandise 6) not use reserves 7) email the buyer as soon as his payment is received 8) email when I have sent the item 9)email when paypal or billpoint notifies me a payment has been made 10)give feedback when payment has been received 11) never leave negative feedback AFTER the other guy has left me negative feedback because that is "retalitory" 12) be at the computer 24/7 so I can answer a customer's questions instantaneously 13) send EOA within seconds of the auction ending 14) have very short TOS but make sure that every possible situation is covereds and spelled out in detail 15) never charge more than actual postage for shipping 16) eat the costs of boxes, bubble wrap, tape, gas, etc used for packing the customer's item because after all "its the cost of doing business" 17)don't make my minimum bid to high because after all "the customer wants to get a bargain" 18)ship the customer's item as soon as I get payment 19)don't hold the item for the check to clear if the customer has "high feedback"..(as defined by the customer) 20)Offer paypal or the customer won't bid 21)offer billpoint or the customer won't bid 22)don't use Ipix 23) don't use "to many" pictures 24) use plenty of pictures 25) don't use small pictures 26) don't use big pictures 27) don't use an auction management service that requires the buyer to enter his information on an online "form"..privacy issues you know...and after all, why should the buyer "do the seller's work for him?" 28) don't have to high a feedback because then you "give bad service" 29)don't be a power seller because then it is obvious you are to busy to give good customer service 30) don't charge a handling fee because then you are ripping off the customer 31) don't make any of your profit on the shipping 31)list in the auction what type of shipping you will be using 32) break down your shipping charge in the auction so the customer knows exactly where every penny he is paying you goes to 33) don't use WOW L@@K RARE...yada, yada, yada!!
Take items one, two and three...there have been numerous posters who have said they will "back out of an auction" if the seller uses templates, wallpaper or animated gifs. I use all three. I have NEVER had a complaint about it...but obviously there are buyers who dislike these so much that they will boycott the auction...including mine.
Should I worry about it and change my auctions to accomodate their dislikes? I don't think so...in three years I have sold 7000-8000 items (maybe more), I have sold almost $200,000 worth of merchandise...I am obviously not being hurt by the "boycott" of those who do not like animated gifs, wallpaper or auction templates from services such as auction assistant...so why should I change what is a successful auction format just to satisfy the few who are peeved by these items? If I stopped using them there may be other buyers who find the ad so "plain jane...boring..unprofessional" that THEY will boycott...so what have I gained?
Sorry...but each seller has to find the "formula" that works for him. And if what works for someone else seems wrong to you...well, then do what seems right to you but don't get such a swelled head that you think your way is the ony right way. There is more than one way to skin a cat...or sell on ebay
[ edited by amy on May 7, 2001 07:36 PM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 01:39:13 AM new
quickdraw29:Regretfully I can no longer reply to both you and Amy in the same message as it has become obvious that for some reason she has stopped taking her medicine again. 1)a dumb buyer is one who bids on an auction and is charged an "excessive shipping charge" and bids on that same sellers auctions again. A buyer who bids impulsively without caring if he is overcharged is a REAL DUMB(or dumber)buyer! Complaining after the sell doesn't mean he is dumb...just means he realizes he's been had and according to you, not having any fun.2)I agree you should use "actual Shipping" in your TOS. I would hate to have to tell bidders they were paying $20/hr. packing fees,helping to pay for my $75/hr. mechanic, plus explain that $5 rebate because of competition myself! 3)There are discussions about shipping charges in these threads because sellers like me that don't have a particular, unique item(s) are noticing that bidding is way off and a lot of us feel that ticking a large number of people off gouging higher profits by padding the S/H is not the way to improve it.4) No quickdraw the message I am receiving about buyers not caring to compare is coming only from a few other sellers who haven't seen the light....yet. Sorry, the Coke/Pepsi deal you mentioned won't work here...and I certainly am not naive enough to believe that your customers are beating your door down because they want to be overcharged on s/h. But that's what you are saying by trying to compare that way. 5)I'm not saying you need to change anything, Just asking you not to promote this trend that is detrimental to ebay in general...all of us do not have the "unique" merchandise that impulse "fish" people will buy...copy?
posted on May 8, 2001 02:26:53 AM new
Microbes: Great entry! It's good to know someone else in here approaches this problem with the buyers point of view in mind. And for those wandering I have made no post that sellers were only entitled to postage only. What has motivated my opinion, in example, was a seller's TOS that read:actual shipping, insurance extra if desired. Note $4 will be added to each sale for handling. A scan of this person's auctions showed 35-40 pieces of jewelry all within an hour of end of auction...5 total bids, none above reserve. Gouging but no problem because he stated it(except for himself). But, if this seller decides to conceal it behind a simple actual shipping only TOS as many sellers have opted to do then there will be problems as I don't believe the average person would be happy to pay that amount for an item that comes to them in an envelope. My real concern is that if this becomes a trend among sellers in general that ebay as a whole will be adversely affected. Not so much by a boyicott as general public distrust in the community as a good place to do business.
posted on May 8, 2001 02:43:53 AM new
Amy.....OH AMY! Please take your medicine so I can make sense of what you say. And you were doing so good the other night by letting quickdraw do your talking for you...no rambling at all to speak of. While you're at it take 2....so you can stick to the "excessive shipping charges" subject of this thread! After all we aren't capable of handling all your customer complaints at one time. plus it will reduce the swelling in your head caused by all those sales!
[ edited by PaladinLvs on May 8, 2001 02:58 AM ]
[ edited by PaladinLvs on May 8, 2001 03:25 AM ]
The other point is...most buyers are not picky about these shipping cost matters. They take the shipping into account when they bid and they don't check the postage when they get their item. If the item is as described, got to them in good condition and in a decent amount of time, they are happy.
Correct, as usual. REASONABLE buyers understand that a good deal is a good deal, regardless of the breakdown of the costs paid. If I get a $100 item for $65, I couldn't care less if $40 of that is a handling charge.
Again, if you bid on an auction then you are agreeing to the terms as spelled out in the listing. If the terms AREN'T spelled out and you still bid, you are STILL agreeing to the the terms. If you need clarification on an issue, email the seller and ask! If you don't receive a response or if the auction closes in 3 minutes, DON'T BID!
posted on May 8, 2001 08:47:01 AM new
PaladinLvs...there is no trend. These same "shipping gouging" threads have been going on for at least the last three years...possibly more, but three years is how long I have been reading them.
If bids are down then it has to be caused by something else because the "excessive shipping charges" are not a new phenomenon.
If bids are down it more than likely can be traced to greater competition. The buyer has a greater choice now...instead of there being one or two of the widget he wants there are now a profusion of identical widgets to choose from.
If your bids are down then maybe the place to look first to find the cause is your own auctions...are your prices competative, are your ads effective, are you selling something that oodles of other sellers are selling, is your TOS so negative that the bidders are scared to deal with you? Look to yourself instead of trying to blame your declining number of bids on other seller's business methods.
Dubyasdaman is right...reasonable bidders are happy when they get a bargain and don't care if the breakdown of the total they paid is 95% shipping and 5% final bid or if it is 95% final bid and 5% shipping. When the final result is they paid half what they would somewhere else everything else is immaterial.
And reasonable sellers know they can't satisfy everyone so they concentrate on satisfying the vast majority of the buying pool.
PS...I haven't noticed a decline in bids at all. Business is still brisk in my corner of ebay...so sorry your business has been suffering.
[ edited by amy on May 8, 2001 08:48 AM ]
[ edited by amy on May 8, 2001 08:50 AM ]
posted on May 8, 2001 09:25:13 AM new
Most buyers who complain about excessive shipping to me are only being charged $1-1.50 handling.
I had a lady complain, and I responded I would knock off 10%, and she kindly asked to back out of the deal and would pay my fees associated with the listing. For another .60¢ she could have had her item. Three emails to me about saving .60¢!!
In life you have to choose your battles carefully or you'll spend your whole life in battle.
Paladin, what's your next battle after this one? Telling buyers not to buy collectibles when they're hot?
posted on May 8, 2001 01:44:32 PM new
Amy: There is a trend because I use it to my advantage. I trade in collectables and this time of year in particular, I buy much more than I sell via the auction venue. I simply find an item that has several listings ending in a relatively short time span, locate the one that is listed at a cost approx. starting bid but which has no bids(or starting amount only), then snipe it. Guess what the #1 qualifier is on my successful buys? The listing seller either hammered a hard line on handling in his TOS or hid a higher than average handling by being vague. Where do these items I buy this way go...to collectors that I serve directly mostly. Several of which have indicated to me they no longer buy on ebay because of past bad experiences. Yes there is varied reasons given for this but #2 has been shipping concerns and #1 is fraud. Have you read the news concerning ebay's late phenominal growth...."in the local/regional area mainly"? If so, you will have noted mention of #1 above. No I, in answer to your sugestion, am not suffering any lack of bids. When I list, my auctions always finish at the top of the market for that item. If I had to say why....I avoid the trend.
posted on May 8, 2001 02:08:26 PM new
Well Paladin, if it is a trend it is one that has been around for almost as long as ebay has. Sounds like old news to me
If you are using this "trend" of excessive or vague shipping charges to your advantage then I would think that you are being very short sighted in trying to get sellers to stop the practice...doesn't seem to be in your best interest to change the staus quo or to stem the rising tide. Your bottom line will be adversly affected if every seller heeded your advice
And thanks for deciding to address me in a civil manner this time...it was decidedly more pleasant
posted on May 8, 2001 03:11:52 PM new
Amy: It's good to see you smiling and feeling better! Bottom line would be best for me if ebay functioned consistantly as a viable auction market.This icky, picky handling of collectables is too time consuming for my tastes. The problem we are discussing is old, true, but getting progressively worse. Ebay actually performs more like a cheap flea market or mail order house than an auction at times.This is for more than one reason, yes, but "exceesive Shipping" is a major one.
posted on May 8, 2001 03:37:08 PM new
Oh Paladin...I was feeling fine all along! But I must admit that there for a while I thought you were going to have an apoplectic incident. You really must learn not to get so uptight over these type of things.
I don't think excessive or vague shipping terms are on the rise. You just see more of it because there are more sellers now than there was a year ago...and many more than two or three years ago. As a percentage of auctions listed I bet it has remained fairly constant. Problem is..you can't prove your position that it is on the rise nor can I prove my position that it hasn't changed.
Using the MANY real life auctions I go to and my experiences in the fields I sell in (china, glass, collectibles and books), I think ebay is consistantly a viable auction market. But, like the auctions in the real world, sometimes things go so cheap that it seems more like a cheap flea market. Sometimes the buyer gets to steal the item, but that happens in the real world too.
Heck, I recall a real world auction I went to recently where half way through the auction the auctioneer, after bringing the hammer down on another of my many wins that night, said from the podium, "Amy, I see you brought your gun tonight...you have been stealing stuff left and right!"
posted on May 8, 2001 09:36:27 PM new
quickdraw: I was pleasantly surprised to see that you have conceded this battle to me. I was particularly pleased with the statement you made supporting my position. "Most buyers that complain about excessive shipping to me are only being charged $1-$1.50 handling". I was very much impressed with the professional manner in which you handled the complaint. I'm just glad that the lady didn't encounter a real case of "excessive shipping charges" and cause you more trouble. If that had been the case I'm sure she would have retained negative thoughts about the incident and ebay in general as they almost always do regardless of how it's handled. And as you have now agreed, this is a trend that we wish to avoid. Yes, quickdraw, I will certainly inform you of any up-coming battle in which a person of your talents would have an interest. Sorry, but the next epic struggle of my life can't be to talk buyers out of buying collectables when they are hot...you aren't seriously going to attempt that alone if I don't agree to it are you? I mean you still have this "Excessive Shipping Charge" hole in your foot.
posted on May 8, 2001 10:40:28 PM new
Paladin, please tell me you are being
sarcastic! First I was not, am not in a battle with you. That would suggest I have lost my wits, I can surely attest my wits are intact. Merely mark it down as a discussion.
Secondly, I never agreed with anything you said. It's pitiful that a seller, such as yourself would be so clueless about why sellers may charge extra. It makes sense when a buyer is clueless, because no one showed what goes into packaging and mailing an item to them.
Third, my discount to that lady was just to close the sale as quickly as possible. It failed though because she was too cheap to pay an extra .60¢. I would be happy if she stopped buying on ebay or least never buy from me again.
Let me clarify one point, and it was meant to educate you, most ideas buyers have of excessive shipping, by my experience is a handling of a piddly amount of $1.50 or less, not $5, not $10, not $20. How I helped make your point is beyond me. I certinly was being sarcastic when I said $1.50 is excessive, and you didn't see it.
Well, I'm not here to change your mind, you already showed you are stuck in your ways. Maybe someone else who cared to be enlightened may have learned something. I know if I was strictly a buyer I'd like to know the sellers obligations towards making a profit while stretching their margins to be competitive.
Please no longer address me Paladin, just address the thread. Thank you.
posted on May 9, 2001 02:56:24 AM new
"It's pitiful that a seller, such as yourself would be so clueless as to why sellers can charge extra" No where in this 3-4 day long thread, have I said a seller did not have the right to charge a reasonable handling fee. I have, in several different ways, said : If a seller charges an "Excessive Shipping Charge", tries to hide it behind vague terms in their TOS, and treats their customers who are uncomfortable with it as impulsive,clueless,cheap,fish people(seller's exact terminalogy who backs the opposite view); then that attitude, if it came to be the trend among sellers would adversely affect the ebay community as a whole and cause buyers to mistrust ebay as a market for their business. Now will the seller who hasn't lost his wits, please show me any referrence in my text anywhere that says a seller can't charge extra handling and I will remove it.
