ROY222
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posted on April 17, 2001 09:16:38 PM new
This guy showed a scan of a genuine Confederate $10 bill in his auction and then sent me something that was not like the scan. The description said it was counterfiet which the ones he sent were. If he would have scanned one of the actual notes he was going to send I would have not bid at all since I would have known they were only worth about 50 cents.
I bid on several of them since they looked genuine from the scans provided with bids totaling over $75 but none over $10. He now says there are no returns. No mention of a return policy was in his ad. Sounds like a bait and switch but am I out of luck since the individual total is not over a ebay's threshold for filing a claim?
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Puddy
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posted on April 17, 2001 09:31:08 PM new
It's always a good idea to ask the seller a question if you have any.
You can avoid all kinds of "weasel" words and heartbreak later if you know who you are dealing with.
Sorry you had to learn the hard way.
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shaani
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posted on April 17, 2001 09:42:51 PM new
Am I understanding this right? He scanned and showed the original one in the auction but his description said that you were bidding on a fake on.
So you looked at the scan and believed it to be an original (even though the description said otherwise) and now you are disappointed.
In one way you got exactly what you bid on. But if it was a seller with integrity he should have shown perhaps the original and also a scan of the one that you were bidding on. This is a case of "buyer beware" and I am sorry it happened to you.
He probably deliberately does it this way to entice bidders like you. If he doesn't offer a return maybe just write it up as a "lesson learned" and be more careful next time.
I don't support sellers that do things this way but it is also the responsibility of the bidder to be more aware.
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camachinist
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posted on April 17, 2001 09:52:00 PM new
Roy222
Although the ad sounds misleading, your recitation of the description is telling....
Counterfeit....
As the price seemed a bit low for the genuine article, what prompted you to bid, in light of the description you read?
Was the scan that persuasive?
If the item had been mis-represented in the description (listed as genuine), you'd definitely have a basis for fraud here....
As it is....another class at eBay University...
You can always state the facts in feedback....maybe it'll help another buyer in the future...
Pat
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kudzurose
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posted on April 18, 2001 05:06:01 AM new
Sorry this happened to you, but I doubt if you have any recourse. Assuming the item was shipped through the mail, you might tell the seller you are filing a claim with the USPS, asking them to investigate his selling methods as being illegal. That might rattle his cage enough to cause him to refund. I'd also inform SafeHarbor; you never know what kind of file they already have on the guy.
In my opinion, the picture a seller posts should be of the exact item I'm bidding on unless he states otherwise in the description. Are we expected to email each seller and ask, "Is the picture the one I will get, if I win?"
Sellers who do business the way you relate this one is doing, hurt us all.
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sugar2912
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posted on April 18, 2001 05:17:07 AM new
Even knowing that the item was a counterfiet, there are different grades of counterfiet. The scan of a real one would have made it seem that the bill was a good grade, but if you get something like a photocopy of a bill, then you are not getting what was advertised.
Unless the description states something like, "Note, this is a scan of a real bill, you are bidding on a photocopy of a real bill", then you got what you bargained for.
If what you get was close to a real bill, and undetectable to an untrained eye, then it's a bit more nebulous, but in my mind, you probably still got what you bargained for.
If the description said "This is a top grade fake" and you got a low grade fake, then you didn't get what you bargained for, but you are probably still stuck.
It all boils down to how the description reads in my mind. I am sorry this happened to you. If you interpreted the description incorrectly, but the facts were stated, then... be more careful out there! 
Did you pay with pay pal or credit card? You might be able to do a charge back and send the fakes right back to him.
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jwpc
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posted on April 18, 2001 05:55:38 AM new
I am sorry you were disappointed BUT we have SO MANY buyers who obviously do not read descriptions I can't say I am really very sorry. How do I know they don't read the descriptions, you ask? Because I get endless e-mails asking questions answered in the description.
It seems that a great many buyers merely look at pictures, and either bid or write and ask questions which are already answered. If you don't read the description and TOS, it is your fault you didn't get all the information and didn't get what you "thought" you were bidding on.
You can't blame a seller for your lack of investigation.
I do agree that putting a scan of a real one up tends to be a bit deceptive, BUT if in the description you are told you are buying a counterfeit, then you had the choice not to bid, or to ask the seller for a scan of the item you are actually bidding on.
This is like getting over charged for shipping, that is take responsibility for yourself. Don't blame someone else if you don't ask shipping before you bid, or if you don't read the description or TOS.
Don't ask eBay to make more rules because you refuse to take responsibility. I presume if you are buying on line you are an adult, and should be responsible for your own decision and actions.
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december3
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posted on April 18, 2001 06:09:26 AM new
It sounds to me like he knew he was bidding on a fake bill, he just expected it to look like the picture. Maybe I'm dense, but I do expect what I buy to look like the picture shown in the auction. I probably would have got taken too. Unless the auction said this is a real bill, you are bidding on a copy of it. I would think the scan was of the copy I was bidding on.
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Twelvepole
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posted on April 18, 2001 06:14:29 AM new
Pretty simple.... you have a complaint with the seller, they won't make it right... NEG'em. protect future bidders from this type seller.
Ain't Life Grand...
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dubyasdaman
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posted on April 18, 2001 06:26:12 AM new
My one and only neutral feedback reads as follows:
Item ain't what I thought it was. My fault for not reading descript.
He admitted that he didn't read the description, yet he left me a neutral. If he had contacted me before leaving feedback I would have cut him some slack and refunded.
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dottie
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posted on April 18, 2001 08:42:43 AM new
ROY222: I think what happened to you is a clear case of FRAUD!
I'd report this seller to [email protected] AND I'd go to the post office and file a FRAUD Report on the seller.
In addition, I'd check out eBays insurance offered through Lloyds of London (check within the site map at eBay in the SafeHarbor section under Rules & Safety).... I believe that there is a $25.00 deductible (not sure how that works, but I think it comes right off the top of any fees recovered) and there is a $200.00 cap)... here's the URL for the INSURANCE page at eBay:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/insurance.html
What this seller did is WRONG! It is a "Bait & Switch".. clearly taking advantage of the discrepancies between various "counterfiet" confederate bills AND the use of photo images to TRICK consumers. If he has tricked you successfully (and for profit), chances are that he's done it before to OTHERS and will CONTINUE to commit this type of Fraud on consumers until he is made to STOP.
Complain to eBay. Complain LOUDLY!!!
Complain to your Post Office. Complain to anyone who will listen and/or do something about it. MAKE NOISE over this one!!
Good Luck to you.
- Dottie
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JSmith99
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posted on April 18, 2001 09:04:37 AM new
Dottie, boy finally someone in this thread gets it right. I can't believe how many of the previous posters said "you got what you paid for".
Come on folks, let's be serious. The seller had a picture of something and what was sent did not look like what was pictured. That's fraud; "bait & switch" just like Dottie said.
Whether Roy thought he might be getting a genuine or not, he at least had a reasonable expectation to get something that looked like what was pictured.
Edited to add: Roy, if the auctions, including the pictures, are still online what you should do is print them out and file mail fraud complaints on each auction through the post office.
[ edited by JSmith99 on Apr 18, 2001 09:07 AM ]
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shaani
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posted on April 18, 2001 09:28:52 AM new
I would be interested in seeing what the exact wording in the auction was.
I am in total agreement that the picture a seller shows should be of the actual article they are selling. A few months ago I clicked into an auction with a beautiful piece of blue glass. I noticed that at the end of the description it said that you would be bidding on an identical piece but it would be in amber. That was very misleading as the amber was worth way less and not everyone may read down that far.
If the seller of the counterfeit money says in the auction that the picture is of an authentic bill but you will receive a copy he is probably "within the law". If he just shows the authentic one and says you will receive a copy he may still be "within the law". Look how many mail order catalogues that say "Item may not be exactly as shown".
I can see the "bait" here but without viewing the auction I am not so sure about the "switch".
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camachinist
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posted on April 18, 2001 09:32:28 AM new
Interesting that Roy hasn't returned to fill us in a bit....
Maybe that is telling as well, considering the conflicting opinions filling his mailbox..
Pat
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gjsi
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posted on April 18, 2001 02:00:11 PM new
I can't beleve the number of people here who think it is alright to post a picture in an auction the does NOT match what you are selling, especially in a collectiables catagory. Even if the text of the auction explains that the picture is not the item you will receive, it is totally misleading and IMHO fruad.
I hope I never bid on an auction where some slezzy sellers pulls this trick. I have come close, but I read the auction text. It said the picture was "like" the item you would get. I backed out of that seller's auctions REAL quick.
Greg
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shaani
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posted on April 18, 2001 02:25:27 PM new
I just read this thread over again and I don't see where that many people say it is okay to show a different picture than what you are selling?
I agree it is misleading to do so but I also believe that buyers should be more aware.
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ROY222
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posted on April 18, 2001 02:54:31 PM new
Thanks for all of the replies. I feel I need to add additional information and make comments. First of all I do not have a problem with the written description. I did read it many times. He states in the auction that he took it to a coin shop and they offered to buy it as genuine. He also said it is an "EXACT" replica. Exact was in capital letters in the auction. If he took the item that was shown in the scan to the coin/currency dealer I would believe him. I have genuine Confederate notes and the one he had scanned in the auction looked like it did. The ones I received were not like the scan. It appears he scanned genuine notes to use in his auctions.
The back of the fake notes give them away almost every time. Especially the lower left corner that clearly says "FACSIMILE". There is no way he took these to a coin/currency dealer and the dealer thought they were real. The dealer would be out of business if he was this dumb. If he would have scanned what he was sending I would not have bid either.
When I bid on an auction, I do expect to receive the item shown in the scan-especially something made of paper or an antique. No where in the auction description was there any mention of receiving something different than was shown. I consider it fraud when a seller sends something different than is shown unless it is an honest mistake. With this instance it does not appear to be a mistake. A no return policy also is unacceptable and possible illegal when you are not sending the item scanned in the auction.
The ebay policy seems to be that it needs to be loss/theft of over $25 before they will do anything. The individual items were less than $25.00 but the total was over $75.00. I am probably out of luck on this too. I paid with paypal with funds in my account-not with a credit card. Any body have any experience with this?
I hope I have better luck with other sellers.
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dottie
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posted on April 18, 2001 04:07:58 PM new
ROY222: If you paid via PAYPAL... I believe they also have some form of insurance or buyer protection against fraud.
DO go to the PAYPAL site and look around for any recourse that payment service may provide you. Initiate a formal complaint against the seller or something through PayPal.
- Dottie
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shaani
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posted on April 18, 2001 05:23:18 PM new
Without seeing the actual scan of the bills you received to compare them with the picture that was shown on the auction it is a bit difficult to make any judgment.
He advertised them as "counterfiet" (not my spelling) and as a replica. I am not clear on this but when you bid did you really think that you were getting authentic ones? You said in your first post that you bid since they looked genuine from the scans.
I know you are unhappy to pay for something other than what you thought you were bidding on and hopefully you will be able to work out something with the seller.
I can see this another way also. I once sold reproduction pink depression glass in our shop. It was away from the antiques and I had a big sign saying that it was reproduction and the prices were low. Yet many of the buyers argued with me that it was genuine. They could see it, touch it, etc. You could only go by a picture but maybe next time try to go by the description also. And I do hope you have better luck with other sellers.
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dubyasdaman
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posted on April 18, 2001 06:30:40 PM new
dottie:
PayPal's buyer protection plan only applies when the item isn't shipped. It doesn't apply at all to the quality or misrepresentation of the item.
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dottie
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posted on April 18, 2001 06:37:32 PM new
Oh! Well... I didn't know that. *sigh*
- Dottie 
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gs4
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posted on April 18, 2001 07:01:39 PM new
Sure would be nice to hear from the seller as we are only getting one side of this story. Always amazes me how fast everyone starts to yell mail fraud. How does anyone know this for a fact?
Im going to await clarification as other people have asked if it was a replica you were bidding on. It did state you were getting a copy. Did you know that?
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mrpotatoheadd
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posted on April 18, 2001 07:13:08 PM new
shaani-
You said:
I agree it is misleading to do so (show a different picture than what you are selling) but I also believe that buyers should be more aware.
I'm not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that it is necessary for buyers to email and ask "Is the picture you have in your auction listing an actual picture of the item for sale?" for every auction?
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eventer
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posted on April 18, 2001 07:24:51 PM new
What on earth is the problem w/using a picture of an identical item except for a change of color or size?
It's hardly "bait & switch" so long as it's clearly explained in the text.
Say I have a blue hat for sale but only happen to have a picture of one that is identical except it's the color green.
So long as the seller states, "This auction is for a GREEN hat, not the blue one shown in the picture but otherwise the hat is identical in every way", I don't see the problem there.
Now, what happened to Roy222 wasn't in the same class...the pic should have been of the fake ones.
But auction decisions should be made based on a combination of the pic AND reading the text. Too many people see a pic, then bid based on what they assume they are getting rather than reading the description carefully.
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shaani
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posted on April 18, 2001 07:36:24 PM new
Hi mrpotatoheadd,
No, I didn't mean that at all. It is bad enough that the bidders have to e-mail to ask what the seller means about S&H charges.
I think bidders should take more responsibility to read the full descriptions as well as looking at the pictures before they bid. With all the reproductions, replicas, fakes, etc. it is up to the buyer to become more aware in his field of interest so he is less likely to be scammed or to receive something other than what he expected to get.
It is sometimes difficult to determine whether an article is genuine or not when you are in an antique store and you have the opportunity to examine it closely. So one should be even more careful when buying on the internet. This means scrolling down to the very bottom of the page on all auctions to see if info has been added later that will affect your planned bid.
This auction did say that it was a counterfeit and a replica.
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jayadiaz
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posted on April 18, 2001 07:37:29 PM new
In my opinion if I don't receive the item that was pictured, and if there is no statement telling me that I am not bidding on item in the picture THEN I did not receive the correct item. Seems pretty simple to me.
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