posted on October 8, 2001 10:28:05 AM newwhat "opportunity" was afforded?
In these cases, there are generally two ways to work it out.
1. Send another one which addresses the issue.
2. Refund.
Beyond these, one can offer buyer whatever buyer will accept to drop the case.
A full refund is 100% effective against this kind of chargeback, regardless of whether buyer is pleased with the results. Sending another one, or anything else, relies on buyer dropping the case.
In the present case, the opportunity to resolve the case existed for at least a month.
...the banking system can be expected to drop the ball at every possible opportunity.
Apparently, in some alternate universe, FDIC insured banks can be expected to make mistakes whenever possible, while unregulated quasi-banks are totally dependable. You heard it here first.
posted on October 8, 2001 04:55:22 PM new
Roofguy
My big gripe with paypal here is the way they say we will investigate and let you know.
There way of letting us know is to lock the account? no email saying why or anything further ?
We can and will do business very nicely without pay-pal.
As to the case in question how was fraud commited ?
Was it commited by us or by the buyer who decide to set her own rules , ignore the insurance and stick us with the bill ?
posted on October 8, 2001 05:20:56 PM newWas it commited by us or by the buyer who decide to set her own rules , ignore the insurance and stick us with the bill ?
The rules were written by the federal government. The credit card buyer was entitled to return the purchase for refund.
If you intended to keep the merchandise without sending a refund, that would be fraudulent. I don't believe that's what you had in mind.
posted on October 9, 2001 08:01:36 AM new
bielcen, I'm not sure what you disagree with.
The protection offered to credit card buyers through PayPal is in excess of the protection offered to credit card buyers alone. Logic alone suggests it cannot be inferior.
The buyer protection program alone offers very specific protection, which is clearly spelled out. Some buyers assume that it protects more than that, but this assumption is not due to PayPal's suggesting such.
The protection offered to PayPal sellers who follow the rules is vastly in excess of the complete non-protection offered by an ordinary merchant account. Not only do credit card merchants face the same quality-of-merchandise issue as did mrspock, they also face rampant fraud in the form of unauthorized use of credit card numbers. PayPal protects from such fraud completely. This protection is unique in the online payment industry, and represents true value to PayPal sellers.
Check it out. Report back any evidence you can find to the contrary.
posted on October 9, 2001 08:15:39 AM newNot only do credit card merchants face the same quality-of-merchandise issue as did mrspock...
There are those who have reported that their merchant accounts provided them protection from "buyers remorse" and use-it-once-then-return-it chargebacks, which PayPal does not.
Sounds like...
The protection offered to credit card buyers through PayPal is in excess of the protection offered to credit card buyers alone.
only accounts for some situations. It makes the argument more persuasive to leave out the situations where PayPal's protection is inferior, doesn't it?
posted on October 9, 2001 08:56:47 AM newThere are those who have reported that their merchant accounts provided them protection from "buyers remorse" and use-it-once-then-return-it chargebacks, which PayPal does not.
Merchant accounts offer protection, but it's not like some posters believe.
If the buyer follows procedure, and persists, the buyer will be granted the chargeback. Always.
The procedure requires returning the merchandise in the state it was received in, and giving the merchant an opportunity to work it out.
The procedure does in fact offer the merchant some protection. However, we could imagine the havoc we would encounter if PayPal were to offer an "opportunity to respond" to sellers, only to eventually declare most such responses irrelevant.
PayPal DOES offer seller a chance to respond by issuing a refund. Showing a complete refund is complete protection from a quality of merchandise chargeback, whether buyer likes it or not.
posted on October 9, 2001 09:18:26 AM newIf the buyer follows procedure, and persists, the buyer will be granted the chargeback. Always.
Other posters (multiple) on several message boards (aside from this one) have disagreed with your conclusion above, at least with regards to the merchant accounts they had experience with. Are you saying that those posts are lies?
posted on October 9, 2001 09:29:38 AM newOther posters (multiple) on several message boards (aside from this one) have disagreed with your conclusion above
Yes, they have.
Some have cited cases where they won the chargeback by proving shipment.
Some have won the chargeback by showing a refund.
Others have just reported a win, and we're not sure what that means. The procedure has more than one phase, and buyer is given the opportunity to acquiesce. Any such acquiescence is surely a win. Sometimes buyers are deterred by a response from seller pointing out that buyer agreed to some condition or another. A win indeed. A win for seller's terms. No problem here.
It is complicated, and deliberately obscured by the industry (mistakenly in my opinion). I encourage your investigation beyond what the posters of this or any other forum might say.
posted on October 9, 2001 09:44:04 AM newSometimes buyers are deterred by a response from seller pointing out that buyer agreed to some condition or another. A win indeed. A win for seller's terms. No problem here.
And my point is that this is a "win" not available through PayPal, and a rather important consideration for some sellers.
If you don't sell items which attract those overly prone to remorse bidding (designer purses, perhaps?) or which are the type of thing a less than honest buyer might try to get away with using once and returning (expensive formal wear or specialized tools/equipment), then this may not be an issue.
If, on the other hand, you do sell these things, well...
It is complicated, and deliberately obscured by the industry...
I'd agree, and PayPal isn't going out of the way to make it any easier.
posted on October 9, 2001 01:18:27 PM new
"The buyer protection program alone offers very specific protection, which is clearly spelled out."
I don't believe PayPal HAS a "buyer protection program." The only have a Buyer Complaint Program, which, clearly spelled out, simply says if you have a complaint, voice it. If we agree with your position, we'll attempt to get you a refund, but do not guarantee that you will received any money.
[ edited by Retired2late on Oct 9, 2001 01:19 PM ]
posted on October 17, 2001 09:25:41 AM new
Regarding an item being insured and the recipient refusing the "bother" of cooperating with filing a claim, then returning the broken merchandise....
I think the seller is clearly in the right, BUT as a practical matter might be SOL. I'm afraid the legal recourse is to file a lawsuit against the buyer. It would be very very rare for an online sale to be for enough value to justify that hassle and expense, other than as a matter of principle.
Otherwise all you can do is block them from further transactions and leave evil feedback on whatever the selling venue was. Sellers may need to start reading buyer FB carefully and cancelling bids very aggressively if this sort of risk is beyond their business model.
Or, accepting checks and MO's only so the buyer HAS to use the insurance to get a refund with operations like Pay Pal not in the loop at all.
posted on October 17, 2001 12:09:31 PM new
The Taliban looked at future, and saw that there was no plausible hope for their chosen path. The pending doom was concisely described for them.
I guess expecting divine intervention, they stay the course.
posted on October 19, 2001 09:25:32 AM new
I don't know who your merchant account provider is roofguy -- or if you even have one -- but you really need a new one.
posted on October 23, 2001 06:49:16 PM new
Not a paypal boost her even though I have NEVER had a problem as a user since inception of paypal.
My question is if buyer wants to return the item or has returned it, why are you so upset. Cant you file the claim or in your opinion it would be denied?? You got your item back maybe damaged but you have insurance dont you???????????
