posted on December 18, 2001 12:05:21 AM new
well, i am another victim of paypal's scary chargeback.......here is my story.......i am a seller that lives in british columbia , canada.........i sell a lot of product on ebay.........i joined paypal 14 months ago.........i am a verified member 114 ....then a few days ago paypal sent me an email stating that a transaction that took place on May 31 2001 was a bad transaction because the buyer of that transaction used a credit card in a fraudulent manner......i was the seller of that transaction........i wrote back to them giving all the info they required but i could not give a tracking number because here in canada we do not use tracking numbers from our post office because the canadian post office does not have tracking numbers........i have a high feedback on ebay close to 700 feedbacks......i also wrote paypal and they said they would get back to me.......i even called paypal on the phone and the operater keep telling me that i needed a tracking number.........i told the operater about my international status and we do not have a tracking number....i then proceeded to mention to the operater that the transaction was not of a unhappy buyer but a buyer using a fraudulent credit card and why is the tracking number a issue..........she in turn had no answer.........i then recieved the decision from paypal which i forward to you......they say ..........................................
Dear chester jesse wysocki,
In accordance with PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, the amount of
the following transaction involving unauthorized funds has been debited from your PayPal account:
A chargeback settlement fee in the amount of $10.00 has also
been assessed to your account.
The transaction was reversed because of the following:
- You were unable to provide tracking information.
- Shipment was made internationally.
If this reversal has caused your account to have a negative balance,
you will need to reimburse PayPal for the Chargeback. You may add
funds to your PayPal account or send a check to the following address:
PayPal - Accounting Dept.
PO Box 45950
Omaha, NE 68145-0950
Please note that this withholding is in accordance with our
Terms of Use, Section VII, Paragraph 3.
In the future, you can protect yourself against fraudulent buyers by
following the conditions of our Seller Protection Policy.
For full details, please visit our Terms of Service at:
so you see my concern.........how can they bring up a transaction that is over 6 months old and charge me.......and i lose product to boot.........also suppose this happens again........there is no protection.....and they penalized me because i am a international seller..........and i had no chance for any kind of defense.............i asked them for records of this case still no answer
posted on December 18, 2001 05:32:01 AM new
i was told by my cc processer chargeback can go as far back as 18 months.
paypal buyer/seller protection program does not cover intl transactions,so for a canadian seller shipping to usa,it must be considered intl transaction
folks in this country are losing their jobs,they could be more careful in scrutinising their past charges to lower thier cc debt.
also i notice the description of the charges sometimes do not tell you much what the charge is ,makes it difficult to recall what one has actually purchased.
why dont you email this buyer and help her remember what she has bought??good luck.
the way things are going,we may just have to accept checks or money orders only.
posted on December 18, 2001 07:50:43 AM new
STOPWHINING...reread the original post by this seller. The problem isn't that the buyer "doesn't remember" what he or she bought; rather, that person used a credit card fraudulently on this particular sale and so the seller had to cough up the money. PayPal apparently has confused the issue itself, by bringing in the tracking number, which Canada post doesn't offer.
posted on December 18, 2001 08:06:31 AM new
I can't believe that there are still enough gullible people out there who register with, or continue using PayPal to keep it alive
posted on December 18, 2001 08:54:55 AM new
I'm having a really hard time with this. I have more than 10 years experience in the hated Credit Card industry. No bank that I ever worked for would even charge back $8. The reason? It takes about $30 worth of resources to do a chargeback. And the time limits are pretty clear too. 60 days or 120 at the very outside. If it's past time limits and a large dollar item for a good customer or an unusual situation, the bank charging back will directly contact the other bank and try to work something out. But for $8 ??? LOL This is costing PayPal more than $8. And just FYI, if a bank were to send a chargeback to another bank or CC company and not get a response within time frames (I think 30 days), the originating bank will automatically get the $$ whether or not the chargeback had merits. It's all in the VISA and MasterCard By Laws.
<br />
<br />
If this is real, bite the bullet and refund the $8 or whatever it is they want you to do.
<br />
<br />
posted on December 18, 2001 09:08:50 AM new
I don't think what happened to SKYLITE is a normal chargeback (where a buyer is dissatisfied). My understanding is that it involves credit card fraud by the buyer somehow. Wouldn't this involve a different set of chargeback rules?
posted on December 18, 2001 09:23:46 AM new
I agree that it isn't worth going through the hassle; I would let paypal take $8.00 from my account but then I would contact the state attorney general's office with this LUDICROUS email that you received from PAYPAL and asked that they investigate! 16 months absolutely stinks! How come the buyer never contacted after three weeks; or one month? or three months!
posted on December 18, 2001 09:27:43 AM new
Reporting them would also be an exercise in frustration.
If you want to really get the message out, tell everyone you know to cancel their PayPal accounts and go back to using real money or direct charges to your credit card. Why involve a middle-man who exists for only one reason - to take another little piece of your profit.
posted on December 18, 2001 09:38:41 AM new
I have had 2 items that I paid for by PayPal and never recieved. The only notice I got from PayPal was that I was correct and they seller was at fault, but they had no money in their account so I was out of luck. Does that mean we should be sure to clear out our PayPal accounts and then we, as sellers, would never have chargebacks??
posted on December 18, 2001 10:15:27 AM new
Hi merrie,
Chargebacks and Buyer Complaints are separate items. Emptying your PayPal account does not eliminate chargeback liability (for chargebacks received).
Chargebacks=formal notice from the credit card companies that the customer disputed the charge
Buyer Complaint=User reporting that there may be an issue with the transaction. Our terms do state that we can't guarantee recovery in the dispute with the seller. We only seek to recover from the PayPal account.
posted on December 18, 2001 10:16:47 AM new
HI yeahwell,
You may notice that this issue is way old. You would also notice that the processing vendor (the one that handles our chargebacks) had an error with a limited number of users. The issue was resolved.
posted on December 18, 2001 10:31:35 AM new
Fraud is an entirely different matter and I'm not an expert in those areas of chargeback. I do know that it always involves legal investigation and in the case of all credit card fraud this means the Secret Service as the Treasury Department oversees this.
Chargebacks are a fact of life if you want the convenience of letting your buyers use credit cards. For those of you who think that there are better or cheaper alternatives, good luck. Getting a merchant account is time consuming, expensive and involves checking your credit. I think PayPal is a good deal.
There will always be crazy customers. At one bank I worked for a guy used his credit card to sign up for a dating service. He wanted his money back. He sent us the sales brochure covered with gorgeous women. His complaint was that the women the service set him up with didn't look like the models. The kicker is he sent a picture of himself. He was no hunk. And that's being kind. He said he knew he wasn't goodlooking and did any of us at the bank want to date him. We did do the charge back using two codes, "not as described" and non-receipt of services".
posted on December 18, 2001 10:43:35 AM new
to paypaldemon:
so what? PAYPAL needs to get their act together so they don't harrass sellers about transactions that took place 16 months ago! At most there should be a limit of 3 months! Additionally, If PAYPAL processes a payment with a fraudulent credit card, PAYPAL is at fault!
To all PAYPAL customers, if PAYPAL pulls this sort of thing, COMPLAIN!!! write to the state attorney general's office, write to the better business bureau, write to consumer affairs! This is unfair business practice; the fact that it has been resolved doesn't correct the time wasted and the aggravation we go through!
posted on December 18, 2001 11:01:53 AM new
sonsie,
when i said sometimes buyer does not recognise the charge when statement comes or does not recall what he has bot,i am speaking in general terms.
i know sometimes you buy something from store abc,somehow the charge description said something like haysworth xysbnn,it could be they sold their cc receivables to raise cash??or they operate under a holding company??
i have a merchant account with banc one,and they told me chargeback could happen anytime within 18 months period.
i asked them how do they expect a retailer to stay in business??no answer.
with a lousy economy and more folks losing their jobs,sellers are in a difficult situation,if we want more buyers,we have to accept credit cards,with credit cards come possible chargebacks.
cc processor advised we built the cost of chargeback into our price structure,easy said than done in cyberspace.
posted on December 18, 2001 11:10:12 AM new
yeahwell,
does paypal know any better than the other cc processors when someone is using a fraudulent credit card in cyberspace?
if i sit next to you at a beauty parlor or restaurant and glanced at your cc with expiration date,then i managed to get your home address,i can use it to buy items in cyberspace.
i could say this is a gift,so please ship it to my best friend in russia,romania etc.
read past threads on some sellers who have shipped to russia,it is not funny.
our economy is built on credit,if we all demand money orders,our business will shrink to zilch!!!
posted on December 18, 2001 11:21:02 AM new
Hi yeahwell,
I advised why the problem happened, as well as that it was resolved. The issue was caused by a processing agent, not PayPal. It has been resolved and corrected.
posted on December 18, 2001 11:26:12 AM new
it really truely is AMAZING that people still use paypal with all the Fraud that goes on. My opinion is Paypal is a haven for fraudsters.....
Its like playing Russian Roulette at some point you are going to get stung either as a buyer or seller.
I am glad I quit them and sent a letter to my bank disabling paypal getting access to my bank account because yes if your bank details are on file they HAVE ACCESS to your account.
posted on December 18, 2001 12:04:50 PM new
As someone already pointed out, when my credit card statement comes in with the charge for an item I paid for with PayPal, it says PAYPAL received the money . So if I wanted to do a chargeback, I would have to notify my cc company that I wanted by money back. I would then furnish whatever the cc company asked me to furnish and wait on their decision. If the final decision is in my favor, my credit would come from PAYPAL just like the charge did.
It's obvious from reading all the PayPal post that not many of us know PayPal's proceedure.
What happens exactly once a chargeback is requested? Who does what, when, where and how?????
I think we need a TUTORIAL on PayPal titled "CHARGEBACKS". I know that they aren't suppose to be possible-says so in the TOS. I know that PP can't stop them from happening. When they do happen who does what, when and where????
I just think it would be a nice idea to address the reality of chargebacks. That way we all would know what to expect if it did happen to us. I know I'd feel a lot better if I knew exactly what information I would be expected to furnish and how I would be expected to furnish it and when I would be expected to furnish it and to whom.
Maybe even a nice little online form for seller's to fill out would be nice....
posted on December 18, 2001 01:42:14 PM new
hi mrfoxy76,
A Gartner Group study indicates online fraud to be around 2.64%. Ours is close to .5%, as we have many methods of identifying credit card fraud.
Hi sulyn1950,
A user is asked for the information relative to the Seller Protection Program when a chargeback is received (issued from the respective issuing bank).
Chargebacks are a legitimate concern, but following the Seller Protection Program does help reduce the possibility of receiving one. Chargebacks are also relatively rare, and they can be filed for nearly any reason by the party holding the card.
General reasons for a chargeback:
a) non-delivery of merchandise
b) not happy with merchandise
c) credit card fraud
posted on December 18, 2001 03:23:31 PM new
PAYPALDAMON is right! Those are three legitimate reasons for a chargeback. If you don't receive the item you should not pay for it; if you're unhappy with the item, you should not pay for it. BUT....... the buyer should not be able to say that they didn't receive it OR are unhappy with it months and months after the transaction took place.
This is fraud, plain & simple. Once again, contact the better business bureau, department of consumer affairs, and state attorney general's office.
posted on December 18, 2001 08:14:07 PM new
Hi fdavidm,
"the buyer should not be able to say that they didn't receive..."
Which is why users should follow the Seller Protection Program.
"it OR are unhappy with it months and months after the transaction took place.
Chargebacks occur because:
a) buyer requested one from the credit card company
b) credit card company reported a fraudulent issue with the credit card
I hope that you realize that PayPal has NO say in the issuance of a chargeback, which is a right granted by the credit card companies to their users. I also hope that you realize that they occur because of an action taken by the individual (the buyer) or the cc company.
posted on December 19, 2001 06:59:17 AM new
i think the problem is people feel there is protection from paypal when there is not. least billpoint CLEARLY state that all protection for a buyer is with your credit card company not them and when you receive cash they also CLEARLY state there is a possibility of a chargeback.
posted on December 19, 2001 07:27:28 AM new
so Mrfoxy76, does that mean we are somewhat more protected with billpoint?
[ edited by yeahwell on Dec 19, 2001 05:20 PM ]
posted on December 19, 2001 01:07:30 PM new
Hi mrfoxy76,
Users that have an issue with the seller can still file a chargeback. Our terms of use do require that they file a Buyer Complaint before doing so, as we would like to attempt recovery before it gets to that stage.
posted on December 19, 2001 03:02:15 PM new
Hi! paypaldamon-The point I wanted to make was that information and clarity of that information and a set proceedure that everyone could view ahead of time would go a long way to avoiding problems.
Why doesn't PP have a TAB that says "COMPLAINTS" or something similar. When a person clicks on it he can read the criteria for filing a complaint. He could be told under what circumstances he could file a complaint. He should be told that 1st he needs to contact the receipient of the funds (seller) and try and settle the problem. If the problem can't be resolved directly that way, then he can file a complaint. The receipient (seller) will receive a copy of the complaint and be given a specific time frame in which to respond. The seller will be told what they will need to furnish as proof of shipment, what refund policy they offer and what steps they took to try and resolve the issue. They complaintant (buyer) will then receive a copy of the sellers response.
There should be a FORM online that can be filled out. It would be uniform for everyone. Something simple like:
1. name and email address of person making complaint
2.name and email address of person complaint is against
3.Category the complaint would fall under:
a. alleged non-shipment
b. alleged damaged goods
c. alleged fraud
(and anything else PayPal would consider as grounds for a POTENTIAL CHARGEBACK)
4. a space for the complaintant to explain what happened and why he wants his money back
5. instructions on how to forward emails exchanged between the buyer and seller that would show what steps both parties had taken to try and resolve the problem.
The seller would be forwarded this information and have a space to respond.
Then the seller would be told what he needed to furnish to PayPal either by mail or electronically or by FAX
Once PayPal had all the information and BOTH the buyer and seller KNEW what was said by each other and were given the oportunity to explain their positions, then nobody would be in the dark.
Now, granted if PayPal rules in favor of the seller, the buyer can THEN go to his cc company and try them. Chances are they will have to furnish at least something to the cc company to show they have a valid complaint. Then when the cc company contact PP, PayPal could forward all the information they already had gathered along with the address of the seller so the cc company could contact them directly for more information if needed.
It may sound complex, but it really isn't. Just needs a little programming....
Anyway, it sure would be nicer than just getting an email that says we've received a complaint and we are investigating.....we'll be in touch.......
posted on December 19, 2001 03:14:19 PM new
Hi sulyn1950,
You, more or less, pegged down how the process currently works. In addition, the HELP section on the web site has a tab for PROTECTION POLICIES, which will give you the info on how to file a complaint.
posted on December 19, 2001 03:55:55 PM new
Thanks paypaldamon-I am !
I have never thought to look under the HELP tab!
OK, I wanted to look at the complaint form but couldn't. Had to have a transaction ID to continue. Since, I don't really want to file a complaint I don't want to go to all that trouble to go look one up.....
Maybe PP could put a "dummy" form up somewhere so we can look at it?????
Does the seller receive a copy of the complaint including what the buyer alleges has occurred?
It says the seller is notified and asked to furnish certain info in a certain timeframe but it doesn't say if he will get an opportunity to refute or show that he made an effort to solve the problem with the buyer directly. Does he? Would that bare on PayPal's decision or would they only accept the "proof" such as a DC. Still doesn't say how a seller could prove the item was as described and not "fraudulant" because it's different than advertised. That's subjective.
I also did a little link following (don't usually do that) found under the seller's protection policy that if I accept a payment for over $500, I need to also be able to provide a proof of signature card in addition to a trackable proof of delivery. I didn't realize that. I use DC and of course the insurance, but never thought to add the request for proof of signature.
Yes, it's all there just like you said, BUT (got to save face now ) it's hard to get to. If I wanted to get to the complaint form I would have to "continue" through another screen about 3 times before I actually got to the starting point for the complaint form. That needs to be made simpler!!! There, I got the last word in.....
I don't have a dummy form, but I should be able to answer the questions below....
Maybe PP could put a "dummy" form up somewhere so we can look at it?????
Does the seller receive a copy of the complaint including what the buyer alleges has occurred?
(Yes, and it includes the transaction amount,date, and email)
It says the seller is notified and asked to furnish certain info in a certain timeframe but it doesn't say if he will get an opportunity to refute or show that he made an effort to solve the problem with the buyer directly. Does he? Would that bare on PayPal's decision or would they only accept the "proof" such as a DC. Still doesn't say how a seller could prove the item was as described and not "fraudulant" because it's different than advertised. That's subjective.
(The seller has a chance to refute the claim with he information requested. We will also look at information... such as the seller emailing us that they have refunded the money)
posted on December 19, 2001 07:11:04 PM new
I got an email from PayPal today ... a refund of $31 issued to me because the seller never signed up for Paypal.
The date I paid the seller:
November 30, 2000
So, why did it take over a year to decide this person was not signing up with PayPal? How much money is pocketed by PayPal daily and held for the interest at least. Or, what if I had dropped PayPal? Then they would have gotten to keep the money.
posted on December 19, 2001 07:20:45 PM new
Mrs. Claus, I'm glad I'm not the only one that got a less-than-timely message like that. I received the same message about a transaction from September of 2000. The funny thing is, I know the person had a Paypal account because the money I was sending her was a refund for an overpayment that she sent me through Paypal!
[ edited by yeahwell on Dec 19, 2001 05:20 PM ]
!
