posted on June 14, 2001 07:55:18 PM new
Below is the email I received. I am just MORTIFIED. I've been selling on ebay since 2/99. I wrote to Ebay asking what this is about, telling them to feel free to check any of my auctions since 2/99 to see this isn't the case, and have heard nothing from them, not even the canned message that the reps will get back to me!! I have nothing to hide! I just don't understand. Does anyone know if this is a general letter sent to certain email based on their email preferences, or is it a canned pre-warning letter because someone has reported me? Unbelievable. I am just furious.
Hi,
I am responsible for Customer Support at eBay, and have an important
message to share with our eBay sellers. This could have a big impact on
your business with us, or that of someone you know, so I appreciate this
minute of your time.
I would like to talk for a moment about "shill bidding", the improper
bidding by sellers on their own listed items in order to increase the
auction price. Many members of the eBay community may not know what
shill bidding is, and may be inadvertently violating our policy on
shilling. It is critical that all members fully understand the policy
here, particularly since eBay has developed a number of shill bidding
detection technologies that we are using to randomly audit ongoing
listings.
The policy on shill bidding is essentially this: if you are selling an
item, you cannot bid on it, and neither can your relatives, co-workers,
or friends with whom you might share phone numbers or internet service
accounts.
There are some circumstances under which your colleagues or relatives
might want to place a real bid on an item you are selling. But, this
bidding by a related account looks highly suspicious, and may cause the
community to lose trust in your listings as well as the entire eBay
process. To avoid even the appearance of a problem, we do not allow bids
placed by close associates of the seller.
Shill bidding can have severe consequences, and sellers have lost their
selling privileges, not to mention business revenue, by permitting the
sort of improper bidding described here. A first offense of the shill
bidding policy usually leads to an immediate 30-day suspension, and a
second offense means permanent eBay suspension in almost all cases. In
addition, U.S. law enforcement agencies have taken the position that
shill bidding is a criminal offense that may be prosecuted as a felony,
with heavy fines and even imprisonment.
Obviously, we want the eBay community to continue to thrive in a
trusting and safe environment, one that is based on the integrity of our
good sellers and valued buyers. We don't want sellers to run afoul of
eBay policy or the law. I encourage you and all eBay sellers to review
the following rules, and ensure that your associates and family members
know the rules as well. More information on shill bidding rules can be
found by clicking this link:
posted on June 14, 2001 08:08:41 PM new
I don't blame you for being furious. I would be too. It sounds to me like someone reported you for possible shilling.
I assume there was a number after the KMM# part of the message? That sounds like a report number or something that would not apply if it just a general mass mailing.
I e-mailed Safeharbor recently and the subject line of their response had the (KMM#). It sure sounds like someone wrote in. Geesh.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:28:52 PM new
now that's interesting, I had the opposite reaction. I felt like it was worded generally to everyone. Although, I have never received a similar message, so perhaps it was meant for you specifically. I guess if I were you I would look at anything that you have recently bid on, or look at the bidders of your sold items. If you can see anything that might have looked funny to others, that could be the source. Otherwise, I wouldn't worry if you are sure nothing has happened... I can see that it would be upsetting! jhowe (not the one on eBay)
posted on June 14, 2001 11:02:10 PM new
I think you've been suspected but not proven of shilling so they send the letter.
I could be wrong.
Now they have set it up so you can only pull info if you have a transaction with the person.
I have a friend who was shilled and didn't even know it until we saw the new id the name and history.
He reported it, but they are really padding the layers between buyer and seller.
And users.
Hmmmmm.
posted on June 15, 2001 12:45:09 AM new
Hi everyone. I don't want to scare you, but you really need to go to esafe2bid.com and check out their little shill bidder detector. We had quite a discussion, on this board, a couple of months ago, and were joined by the originator of this program, who tried to defend it. It's basic premise is that is takes certain bidding pattern criteria and evaluates it and comes up with "shill bidder warnings" and "alerts"! In my mind, it is a dangerous program, as it leaves out to much criteria and a lot of it is based on bidders with low feedback. I have a feeling that ksterni might be a victim of someone using this to check out his/her auctions and possibly came up with an alert or warning and turned it into eBay. In my case, I sell collectibles that attract new bidders and many wind up bidding on a number of my auctions in quick succesion, so when I ran my name, I had a number of alerts and warnings. So any one of us could wind up with a letter such as ksterni received.
posted on June 15, 2001 01:21:25 AM new
I was told you are a suspect if you have a lot of repeat customers. I have several people who always come back and this makes me a suspect...
posted on June 15, 2001 07:04:42 AM new
Wow, lots of good info, thanks everyone!
Hi JUST. Yes, I have lots of repeat bidders. I sell similar items, by design, so they cross sell. For example, if someone collects a certain personality in postcards, and I have many styles, they make collect pictures & magnets of that same person as well.
Ebay STILL hasn't gotten back to me, completely ignoring my emails!
That is ridiculous, any experienced eBay sellers may well have repeat business, in fact I should think a good seller would have repeat business, under most circumstances. I have one woman who bids EVERY TIME I put up an antique sewing machine, and she has done this for YEARS! I don't think she has ever won, but she always bids.
She only bids once, and normally it is the opening bid, but she sure bids. We have other repeat bidders/winners too.
The program mentioned sounds VERY dangerous to me. I should think IF they (the shill catcher program) mislabels someone as shilling, they are leaving themselves wide open for a MAJOR LAW SUIT!
[ edited by insightwatcher on Jun 15, 2001 07:23 AM ]
posted on June 15, 2001 07:29:56 AM new
this does not sound like an ebay email to me,read it again.
if you have not heard from ebay ,could be they are trying to track down this scot newman who has nothing else better to do
posted on June 15, 2001 12:23:04 PM new
Hi ksterni,
Hwahwa could very well be right and there are 2 easy ways to check. Was the sending email address an "@eBay.com" one? Also, take a look at the headers at the bottom of the email. It will be full of eBay.com routing. If it isn't or if the headers are absent, this is definately not an eBay email. Anybody that has had any communication with eBay can make up a KMM#.
Insightwatcher,
You are correct and we argued this point with the author, but he claimed that his disclaimers would protect him. I don't know about anyone else, but should his program ever cause me a problem, he will find out just how well they protect him. The program does not take into account how many auctions the bidder won from you, their area of residence, or bidding history past the last 50 or so bids. Probably 25% of my bidders would come up as shills over a period of time, as many buy 10-20 lots from me over a 1-2 month period, then bid whenever I get a new issue.
The most interesting part was how we found this program. It was being advertised here on AW in one of the "flashing" boxes. I haven't seen it lately though. Hmmmmmmm!
posted on June 15, 2001 12:52:31 PM new
You're right! That is very official. The thing I just love about eBay is how they never read the Contitution. You know, the part about us having the right to face our accusers! Never happens! Their tatics are scare, threaten, click, delete! Oh for the good old days, when this was 2nd happiest place on earth! Good luck ksterni! Keep us posted.
posted on June 15, 2001 01:17:47 PM new
I got the same note last night. I am absolutely LIVID!!! I sent eBay a note about it asking for an explaination, so far all I have gotten is an auto respond that they will answer my note in 24-36 hours.
I have worked very hard with my auctions since Dec. and have many repeat winning bidders, also many positive feedbacks in the last 6 months.
I downloaded the esafe2bid program and checked that, even on the slowest maximum settings, no warnings, no shilling, only 100% positive feedback.
I am curious about the subject line. When I saw the KMM number part, I thought 'this is familiar' and did a 'find' in my email and sure enough, I have an email from Auction Watch with the subject line:
Re [Contact Us] KMM287555C0KM the one from ebay: EBay Shill Bidding KMM29750513C0KM
Isn't it strange that these are rather similar? I am so mad I can hardly think straight, let alone spell correctly.
95% of my auctions are just one bid, the 'buy it now' ones. Would hardly make sense that I would bid my own auctions, just to have the priviledge of paying eBay and AW several hundreds of $$$$ per month!!
Stamper3, I am glad to see you here, maybe you can make some sense of these notes.
I was going to include the headers from both notes, but can't figure out how to cut and paste it. That function is grayed out, when I look at the 'properties'
I see,ksterni, that your note was sent on June 13, in the afternoon, mine June 14, in the evening. At first I thought it was a general mailing, but when I checked and realized that it was only to me. I get madder yet.
Can you tell me, ksterni, how did you copy the headers and I will send along mine and maybe we can see if there is any clues there.
posted on June 15, 2001 01:56:52 PM new
Hi visual,
If your letter is the same as ksterni's, you don't need to copy and paste the headers, as I think we have determined that the emails are official: however, here is your tutorial for the day.
COPY & Paste:
Hold down your LEFT mouse button and run the cursor over the text to be copied. The area will now be highlighted. With the cursor somewhere in the highlighted area, click the RIGHT mouse button. That will bring up a menu, and you should click on "copy".
Next, go to where you want to paste the info (Be sure your cursor is where you want the text to start), and click the RIGHT mouse button again and chose "paste".
You only want to use "cut", rather than "copy" if you wish to eliminate the text from the original, or move it somewhere else.
posted on June 15, 2001 03:40:34 PM new
Hi Stamper3,
Thanks, I forgot about doing it that way. Too mad to think. The headers were more or less the same, just that ksterni's was sent Wed. afternoon and mine Thurs. evening.
Sure wish I would get an answer from eBay as to what this is all about.
posted on June 15, 2001 08:21:12 PM new
The latest: Just received this email from timesensitive@ebay. My only question is, sounds like only TWO sellers have received this email, not all sellers! HUH?
Hello,
The previous email was sent to all of our sellers recently. This email
is merely a policy statement from management at eBay and a guide to
shill bidding written to educate our sellers as to the fine points of
what does constitute shill bidding.
This was instructional only and was sent to all sellers. In NO WAY was
eBay stating that you personally are doing anything wrong. There is no
item number or reporting party. This is not an investigation.
Rest assured, these were educational materials only.
Regards,
Malcolm
eBay SafeHarbor Supervisor
______________________________
eBay
Your Personal Trading Community (tm)
*******************************************
For our latest announcements, please check:
posted on June 15, 2001 09:11:34 PM new
I find it very strange that the email I got only had my name on it and it was sent Thursday evening, and yours, ksterni, was sent to you on Wednesday afternoon. I am not talking about the time I received it, but the time the note had in it that it was sent. I have my email on all the time, so if they had sent one to me on Wednesday afternoon, I would have gotten it then.
Is that the way they sent notes to 'all of their sellers?' at different times and spread over a couple of days?????
Doesn't sound like too many other people have gotten this note, even if others got it and didn't take exception to it as I did, I would think seeing the subject line somebody else would have said, oh yes, I got one of those too.
posted on June 15, 2001 09:20:20 PM new
forgot to mention, ksterni, that besides the difference of the time the messages were sent, the KMM number on mine is different than the one on yours. Mine was KMM29750513C0KM
posted on June 15, 2001 09:20:26 PM new
Maybe this is a new project that ebay hired summer students for. They are sending the e-mails out one by one and ours haven't arrived as yet?
posted on June 15, 2001 09:26:19 PM new
Well, nice to hear Malcolm is still alive & kicking. He's one of the top dogs at eBay unsafe harbor so I think you can trust his response was accurate.
posted on June 15, 2001 10:57:24 PM new
Feeling much better now!
What a week, my car died, they can't find a part & I may need to buy a new car, the basement drain (sewer) backed up, and the bank messed up, overdrew my account & charged me $55 in fees (because they didn't really stop payment on a check I requested a stop on). This shilling letter was just the icing on the cake. However, things are looking up (bank admitted error & will fix the $55 in fees), the drain is fixed, still don't know about the car yet.
Oh yeah, and I gained 10 pounds.
[ edited by ksterni on Jun 15, 2001 10:58 PM ]
posted on June 16, 2001 12:48:54 PM new
I'm about 99% sure I got one of these too. I delete almost everything I get from ebay, so I didn't look at it, but I do remember something as a reminder of their policies.
I tried to download that program, but it wouldn't run on my computer for some reason. I'll try my older computer.
Its absolutely ludicrious that anyone would think I do shill bidding. I rarely bid on anything, and my selling item -- well according to vrane, my average sale is somewhere between $3 and $4. Like I'm going to shill bid a $3 item! Get real.
ANyway, I'm going to try downloading the program in my other computer later, but I'm sure I'll come out fine!
posted on June 16, 2001 02:20:04 PM new
Ksterni, O hope you dont go to jail over this. Its no fun there at all, no inerenet service which means, no ebay. Oh, and the food isnt very good there either.
what kind of car is it and what part do you need?? I have resources...I've been able to find parts to fit classic cars that were in almost new shape for really cheap. Let me know and I'll do a search .
posted on June 16, 2001 04:17:47 PM new
I wonder what mind reading software they are using?
How are they going to detect if a family member or friend bids on your auction? We have family members that live hundreds of miles away and have different last names.
Does their software run background checks on all of your repeat customers?
All of this stuff just makes people paranoid.
As far as unsafetosell (esafetobid) goes, I find that program an invasion of privacy. It allows armchair detectives to jump to the wrong conclusions.
How do you prove shill bidding? (except for in the most obvious instances)
In reality, this "shill bidding policy" and everything that goes with it is as detremental to the community as it is helpful. I really don't see how it can be enforced....
The last time I checked, suspicious didn't mean guilty!
[ edited by ksterni on Jun 15, 2001 10:58 PM ]
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