posted on January 11, 2001 09:01:28 PM new
Enchanted, I have to disagree with the "stabbing her ethnic group in the back" thing. Bilingual education has by and large been a failure in this country, whereas immersion seems to work well.
In any case, it's just a matter of point of view, and I don't think that it's fair to say "if you don't subscribe to my point of view" then you are stabbing anyone in the back.
posted on January 11, 2001 09:12:23 PM new
I don't agree immersion 'works well' sorry James. From whose point of view does it 'work well'? The English speaking people or the non-English speaking people? have you personally known or seen kids try to function in school on a daily basis with "immersion" i.e. no help at all? It's not an immersion program, it's simply no help at all. Ever try to do homework in english when you can't read or speak English yet? whew, something tells me the grade won't be an A without some help in adjusting the student to the new language.
if the current program did not function well my point was she could help her ethnic group far more by putting the same hours of work into helping to build a better program than by working to get rid of the whole bilingual education program.
posted on January 11, 2001 09:19:35 PM new
Sure, my ex-roommate is Russian. He came off the boat, so to speak, not knowing a word of English (10 years old). By the end of the school year he was at grade level. My grandma came to the U.S. from Hungary when she was 12 (late 1920s). There was no option for her to take her classes in Hungarian. Somehow she managed to learn the language and graduate from High School.
Again, my point really is that their are legitimate oppositions to bilingual ed in this country i.e. it doesn't work and is therefore counterproductive.
posted on January 11, 2001 09:50:10 PM new
Strange. "Bilingual education" in this country really only refers to *one* language: Spanish. In my area, besides Hispanics, there are large numbers of Armenian, Korean, Indian, Vietnamese, and Samoan immigrants. Yet there are no bilingual classes for *them.* Why is that? Why are *those* kids able to learn learn English so much easier and quicker than Hispanic kids? Then there's the fact that Spanish-speaking immigrants come from a lot of different countries and speak different dialects...one person's Spanish isn't the same as another's, so bilingual classes can become an added problem to overcome. One person I met, who had come over from Cuba, told me that when she applied for a driver's license she asked for the test in Spanish--and then had to trade it for one in English because she couldn't understand the version of "Spanish" used on the test!
When people immigrate to the U.S. with birth languages that don't even use the same *alphabet* as ours and they & their children are able to learn our language, I wonder about one group who insists they can't.
posted on January 12, 2001 06:23:11 AM new
I personally don't know anyone who insists that their ethnic group "can't" learn English. I also wouldn't agree with that statement.
My objection was to Chavez using her intellectual skills to forcibly remove bilingual education from schools.
I do NOT think that bilingual education should be limited to one language only. I also realize that is an impractical goal. i also do not define bilingual education as requiring classes to be held indefinitely in another language than English. I suggest that some "assistance" be provided in that first boost towards learning English for those who arrive in school without any english at all. Very simple, and would assist with both future educational performance and cultural adaptation.
My objections to removal of bilingual education is far subtler than you might imagine... it has to do with cultural heritage and pride. The "immersion" concept of forcing a child to speak only English at school, often results in a child viewing their native language as "second-best" or "not as good" as english which is bullhockey. Languages are languages. One is dominant in certain situations such as business and education. Dominance does not equal "better".
The process continues and with each subsequent generation almost all bilingual ability and knowledge of the original language is lost. Usually the grandchildren of immigrants know no more than a few words of the original native language of their grandparents. This is a loss of cultural heritage and it's a shame.
In addition, knowing more than one language is actually considered as asset in business in most parts of the globe. In Holland Dutch schoolchildren are taught 5 (or was it 6) languages total, this is routine and required. Their system works quite well, too.
Just because the current system of holding bilingual classes was unproductive doesn't necessarily mean that all second language support and respect should be scrapped entirely. It is possible to work to improve the system rather than throwing it out. If we threw out all new ideas we wouldn't have the advanced airplanes we have now, I don't think all new ideas or inventions started out perfect, they had to be developed over time into something workable. The problem is Chavez sent a subtle message as a Hispanic who has "made it" in American society that she doesn't value Spanish as "good enough" for our schools. Negative message from someone who should or could be a role model to her ethnic group. In many schools in California Spanish is the native language of a majority of students, but excuse me we should drop the program entirely? The hidden message is don't use Spanish in anything other than your home or social situations. And that is exactly what happens and has happened to prior immigrant groups and that is how the language ability is gradually lost by their children and grandchildren.
As for immersion... do you really think you would hear about the failures? The reality in California is that many children even if born in the US speak Spanish as their native language, i.e. not just an immigrant issue. Also many older children that are immigrants arrive without a word of English. If there is no language assistance in the school system, combined with the mandatory passing system which was in effect in Los Angeles Public School District when I lived there (not sure if it's still in effect) it is certainly possible to keep moving up in the grades at school (and eventually drop out) without actually getting an education - and that is the true failure of the system, not that another language was attempted to be used in the system. The FAILURE is that kids are not educated and fully assimilated into the English language in an appropriate manner that will allow them to be fully productive and useful members of our society. It is not a failure on the other hand, to make the first attempts to acknowledge a multicultural society, when that is the reality, nor is it a failure to join the rest of the global community in recognizing that other languages are spoken in the world to do business, and to make a serious effort to encourage multilingual ability starting with our children, who are the most malleable linguistically.
