posted on May 12, 2004 08:25:09 AM new
What an interesting thread this is turning out to be! Here's my take on it:
I grew up as the daughter (church princess) of a Baptist minister. We NEVER used the word "religion" to define ourselves. Every OTHER set of beliefs was a religion; ours was the true word. My impression is that "religion" was a negative, almost dirty word that we'd never use for ours. But we knew that all those OTHER groups were going to hell.
The Catholics had 'way too much fun (dancing, smoking, drinking, sinning and then atoning for it right away, etc.
The "darkies" in foreign lands might get lucky and get the true word from our missionaries, but God help them if they listened to Catholic missionaries. The Catholics were idolators, worshipping statues of Mary, etc.
We had reasons, delineated each Sunday, why God would have wanted us to be dunked, not sprinkled. My father would say "the priest puts his empty hands on the baby's empty head...."
How smug we were. As if a real God, if there is one, would CARE if we're baptized by dunk or immerse. He/she might not even care about baptism. As if a real God would care if we went to a clean movie, even though it was feeding the coffers of godless Hollywood producers. That god, in my opinion, is a little tin idol on a windowsill, not the God of the Universe.
posted on May 12, 2004 07:56:27 PM new
True story...I have a friend who is a real jokester who will do anything for a laugh and for shock value. Anyway, the JHW kept coming to his door about once a week and he kept asking very nicely that they no longer pay him these visits. Well, as someone said, they are very persistent. So getting extremely sick and tired of their constant visits and preaching, he decided he'd get rid of them once and for all. The next time he saw them coming up his long driveway, he stripped off all his clothes, grabbed the shotgun from the closet in one hand and a Playboy magazine in the other. They knocked, he answered...and that was the last time they ever stopped at his house again. I sure wouldn't have the guts...or shall we say...b*lls, to do it, but it did the trick.
"The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously." ~ Hubert Humphrey
posted on May 12, 2004 08:28:12 PM new
I forgot to add to my rant that, since there was nothing in the Bible forbidding necking, we Baptist youth who couldn't do Anything Else would do that with impunity, knowing we were STILL going to heaven.
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posted on May 13, 2004 05:28:34 AM newWhoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason.
Martin Luther, the father of modern Protestantism
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When a dog howls at the moon, we call it religion. When he barks at strangers, we call it patriotism. - Edward Abbey
posted on May 13, 2004 06:33:23 AM new
I agree with Reamond,
Who deciedes which religion is correct?
If none of the diferent sects of religion can agree as to which one is right, then they should all engage in a war, and may the best one win. Isn't that the way it has always been?
My sister quotes what she calls scripture so often, then in the next breath tells me how she HATES Catholics. What a farce! I frankly told her that she may not discuss any religion with me, or tell me what she hates.
I live north of Detroit, MI and have an uncle that claims to be a good Catholic. When I tell him that I go to Detroit, he respond..... aren't you affraid of getting shot by a nig*ger? I guess I'm not a good person becasue I don't go to church and don't use the word Nig*ger.
The pastor of my ex wife's church told me an iteresting story about 2 years ago. This "christian" pastor, who is an eBay seller, told me and with glowing pride how he bilked a buyer for $15.00 extra in shipping. He also told me that he was suspended from eBay for a month for bidding on his own auction. Just think, there are people who look up to him. What a farce!!
When I go to the post office and see ANY printed religious matter laying on the counter, I gather it up and throw it in the trash. A government building that is open to the public doesn't need trash like that.
I have no use for religion, period!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
It's not your right to throw away religious material. It is however, your right to ignore it.
Everyone in this country has the right to believe or not believe. No one in this country has the right to force their beliefs or non-beliefs on anyone.
Belief in God and Jesus is your faith - not your religion. There is a huge difference between faith and practicing a specific religion.
I had the same problem with individuals coming to my door to preach to me. I handled it quite respectfully. I put a bunch of rocks in a circle in my front yard. When I saw them coming I threw on a black robe, sat in the center of the rocks and chanted. When they approached I told them that the voices in my head told me that the rocks were magic. As I continued to chant I grinned at them like someone who had lost their mind. They never bothered me again.
My neighbors across the street were so impressed they gave me a standing ovation!!!
Freedom is not free!! What you say may make me so angry my blood boils, but I will defend to the death, Your right to say it.
Who's right is it then? Isn't it my right to go into a government owned building and not have to deal with religious propaganda?
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 14, 2004 05:24:29 AM new
"True Americans do not exclude anyone. They recognize that everyone has the same rights"
You wrote it!!
Yet you are saying that because you don't care for religious material no one has the right to see it so you throw it away.
If it's right for you, then it's right?
If you don't like religious material, don't look at it!!
If you don't like what's on TV,TURN THE CHANNEL!!!
No one is forcing you to pick up the material and look at it. However, when you throw it away you are denying people who wish to see it, the opportunity to do so.
You're rationalizing because you want everyone to see things the way you do and that's just not possible.
I, personally believe in God and an afterlife. When I see or hear people who don't have my beliefs I don't get angry and try to destroy their stance. I just shake my head, hope they can find something to believe in and move on.
posted on May 14, 2004 10:08:00 AM new
capolady: YES, I agree somewhat with you...EXCEPT, that in a BUSINESS setting, religious tracts are INAPPROPRIATE, not to mention, just plain RUDE!
Just because Ralphie & I belong to OUR LADY OF PERPETUAL MOTION TEMPLE OF LOVE & BAR-B-Q donna mean we stick our propaganda in our shipping to our buyers!
posted on May 14, 2004 11:23:43 AM new
oooh OOOOH! I know the answer. I saw it on Southpark, the answer is.....Mormon, and then the devil punished Sadass Hussein by sending him to heaven. A true fictional story.
posted on May 14, 2004 02:14:22 PM new
If someone is acting inappropriately , and claims they are attend a certain religions facility, it does not mean the beliefs of that organization are wrong.
There are a lot of bad people that attend and are members of a church. There are a lot of people that attend weekly and are active and have not a clue as to the true message of their church.
There are also a lot of nice people that do not go to church.
The Christian religion at its simplest, is about Jesus and his payment for sins of believers, when he was put to death on the cross. This is the Gospel.
It has little to do with bilking someone for $15.00 on shipping or calling people names. It also has little to do with whether the person is attendance in the right building at the right time, and what those people happened to do or say.
These inappropriate actions would tend to discredit the persons willingness to set a higher example of conduct, so as not to give excuses for people to discredit their religious beliefs.
The differences in many of the mainstream Christian Religions deal with issues that are non-essential to the Gospel mentioned above, therefore are not generally thought of as having eternal consequences.
you right, it "aint" about all the ranting raving agging and hissing;; and
it "aint" about going-not going-monday night church of football-church of rock n roll-post offices-etc., etc., etc...
you put it succinctly: it "is about Jesus and his payment for sins of believers."
posted on May 15, 2004 07:43:36 AM new
I'm surprised we haven't heard about the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades here. They are popular topics for anti-religion people.
I'm not surprised we haven't heard about the hospitals, universities, charitable work or great works of art that religious faith has inspired. These are always conveniently ignored by the antis.
posted on May 15, 2004 08:52:26 AM new
Pelorus, you make a good point. I do tend to overlook the good that religious folk do.
I think for me it overshadows the tyranny of the majority. In Utah, some public swimming pools are closed on Sunday because the Mormons don't want the "gentiles" swimming on the Mormon religious day--and I suppose they don't want the Mormons to be tempted to sin.
Other areas of the country are pretty much dominated by one branch of Christianity or another, and they enact blue laws so we all can't "sin" by shopping on Sunday.
I think if each religious group would leave the rest of us alone, we'd feel different about it. I do understand that, if you truly believe one must be saved to go to heaven, you're going to feel an urgency about getting those you love (and even some you don't know) saved instead of seeing them burn in hell.
But it's the enforcement, when a certain group is in the majority, of the petty little do's and don'ts, that are so very irritating to the rest of us. Go ahead and show the good works that prove you're saved, but, if the little things, like method of baptism or shopping on Sunday, aren't truly important for salvation, then don't impose the enforcement of them on the rest of us, I say.
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posted on May 15, 2004 09:29:12 AM new
You're right, Fluffy, no one has to live in Utah. We were there 20 years, moved away 2.5 years ago.
And the good folk there say, if you don't like it, why don't you move? (So they can have a walled third-world high birthrate no-sin country all to themselves?)
You're also right about the restaurants. There are a couple in Ogden and several good ones in Salt Lake City, though. Really good food. And booze, too.
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posted on May 15, 2004 11:23:54 AM new
I found a decent Greek restaurant in SLC once. Go figure. But generally, when driving across Utah, I try to take a lunch.
posted on May 15, 2004 11:28:50 AM new
BTW, my next door neighbor is a Baptist minister. The whole family are odd ducks. I welcomed them to the neighborhood when they first moved in (yeah, that's me, Fluffy the Welcome Wagon) and they haven't spoken to me since.
I'm not worried about being proselytized because then they'd actually have to initiate a conversation, which they have so far gone to great lengths to avoid.
My sweetie thinks they're in the Federal Witness Protection Program.
posted on May 15, 2004 12:30:34 PM new
I guess all this just goes to show that churches are filled with human beings, all types and all imperfect.
It would be nice if attending a church and trying to live a life based on higher principles could make all someone's imperfections and baser impulses go away. But that's not the way it works. So, we get Baptists and Mormons and JWs doing crazy things. Welcome to the human race.
posted on May 15, 2004 01:24:17 PM new
Fluffy: Are you going through southern Utah only or up north toward SLC? IF southern route only, the best restaurant in the state is at the mouth of Zion Park. Just get off I-15 and drive to Springdale. Near the entrance to the town is a place called the Bit 'n' Spur Saloon. Best, unusual, fresh Mexican food we've ever had. Going to and fro from our cabin in So. CA to No. Utah, we would frequently drive out of our way just to eat there, then stay overnight in town. The town is very sweet and is nestled down in towering Zion Park cliffs that are gorgeous and overwhelming.
Pelorus: You just indicated that you have the Baptists, Mormons, and JWs doing crazy things. But don't you see that they and many others might see the religious group you belong as the same? Seems to me all the religions see the other religions as doing crazy things--and maybe that's what causes the wars. Crazy is as crazy does.
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"If you keep your life and your house simple, there's more time to do what you like." --Gandhi
posted on May 15, 2004 01:29:13 PM new
P.S. Fluffy, there is quite a settlement of Greeks in SLC, from before the turn of the century. They are an integral part of the community, and I"m not surprised that there's at least one good Greek restaurant there.
In Ogden, Roosters, on 25th St., is our favorite place; we ate there again a month ago when we were up there for a funeral of a friend.
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"If you keep your life and your house simple, there's more time to do what you like." --Gandhi
posted on May 15, 2004 06:31:47 PM new
My standard answer is, "Not only am I saved, but I back up often. Thanks for asking."
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. B. Franklin
You are kidding right? First of all, I am fully aware that if I don't want to look at it, then I don't have to. What this is about is entirely different.
What gives the Bible thumpers the right to place religious material in the post office in the first place. If they can place a small pamphlet in there, why can't they place a Bible in there? If they want to spread the word of their God, then they have their own building to do it in. It's called a church. In that building, those who choose to attend can do so freely, without hearing or seeing anything that might be offensive to them. I go to the post office for a very specific reason, and that IS NOT to view or see any religious propaganda!!
Under your idea of religious freedom, we should have a religious free for all at the post office. It seems that you think that any person of any religious faith should be able to place any kind of material there with no reaction from anybody. If that would be the case, then we could have material at the Social Security office, the IRS office, the DMV office, at the US Customs booths at the border. Why don't the Bible thumpers put them in voting booths too. Pretty hard not to see them in there.
In your mind, should there be any size restriction for this material? If they wanted to, should they be allowed to place 3 x 5 foot posters at the government owned buildings? Should these be left alone for everyone to see? What if this is offensive for some members of other religious beliefs?
Also, about a month ago, there was a guy selling skin cream at the local post office on Sunday. The post office is closed here on Sunday of course. What did I do? I called the cops on him for selling in a public area without having a vendor's permit. That put an end to him doing that there. The post office is for sending and receiving mail, nothing more.
TnErnie,
My dear friend, I am sorry, but you are absolutely wrong on that issue. I DO have the freedom from religion. There is no law saying that I have to take part in any religion, or that I HAVE to attend any church, mosk, temple, or other such building where religious services are conducted. None whatsoever. Period!
True Americans do not exclude anybody. They recognize that everyone should have the same rights. Bigotry, intolerance and hatred are cancers of the mind.
posted on May 18, 2004 04:28:59 AM new
Even though I personally believe that I have a relationship with Jesus, I also completely agree there's no necessary reason to overtly mention religion of any sort in a business setting. I think that I can do best by following this quote by St. Francis of Assisi:
"Preach the gospel always. When necessary, use words."
Basically it's saying that we should strive to do our best to be loving, kind, and moral people, and that our actions will always speak louder than our words.
Yahoo ID: grantje
posted on May 18, 2004 04:54:38 AM new
I was in Utah once...I was lost.I had horrible nightmares years after about it...
Donnie and Marie were "greeting" me at Walmarts.
