posted on August 29, 2004 07:23:47 AM new
I purchased a model kit recently. The dealer had pictures and said kit is sold "as is", partially assembled.
However, neither the pictures or the description showed that the person who had "partially assembled" it made it a glue mess, and destroyed it's value.
I got from the seller after receiving the kit mess, that he sells all things "as is"
he is no expert on models, but he sells old toys. He said he paid X for it, and he got his money back, an "too bad for you" attitude. I told him that you did not have to be an expert to see that the kit is a mess.
Am I expecting too much of this #36.00 purchase that is now worth less than $15.00. Should the seller do anything or should I have asked a question before purchasing. I note all obvious defects in everything I sell, be it a toy, a bike, a car etc. the auction number is 5915811928.
posted on August 29, 2004 07:29:24 AM new
IMO, I would chalk it up to a lesson learned. Leave the appropriate feedback. All my ads say "as is", but that doesn't mean I won't refund if not described properly. In this case, I probably would have offered you 1/2 your money back at least. I have missed things in a description and I will own up to it if I have the appropriate proof. I'm not quite sure what else to tell you.
Cheryl
. . .if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist- I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend.. . - War and Peace, Tolstoy
posted on August 29, 2004 07:52:32 AM new
Don, the only thing is if he's not going to refund, you're kinda left right there with it. PP doesnt do not as described disputes -least last time I looked. The others are right, leave him a fb that describes your transaction and chalk it up to ate one ape.
..
..
~~ Keep thy heart with all diligence for out of it are the issues(forces)of life..Proverbs 4:23~~
posted on August 29, 2004 09:52:00 AM new
"Dear jboldtoyshop,
I am sorry that you have disclaimed all responsibility for your incomplete description and misleading picture on auction 5915811928.
You've really left me no choice.
1. I have posted this auction number and a description of this transaction to the Vendio Community forum, an auction discussion board read by 20,000 buyers and sellers.
2. I have prepared the following negative feedback which I will leave on your account Saturday, September 4:
"NOT AS STATED/GLUEY MESS/WORTHLESS ITEM/NO REFUND"
3. I am warning readers of the Usenet newsgroups rec.models that you sell models on eBay but when something goes wrong you claim not to know anything about modelling. At the very least this information should have been in the auction description so that potential bidders would have known to ask you a lot of questions.
Very truly yours,
drjackk"
Don, this guy is hoping you'll accept his not-my-problem excuse and go away.
Don't go away. Keep emailing him until he refunds. Trust me, a few people have used this approach on me and eventually I pay them just to go away.
posted on August 29, 2004 10:37:16 AM new
Actually the auction description was worded so as to skirt around the problem with the kit. You been snookered. This should also be posted under buyer beware.
posted on August 29, 2004 11:29:28 AM new
A couple of years ago I acquired two large boxes of American Flyer model railroad cars. The guy I bought them from was a collector and dealer who used to do shows; this was what he had left and he was willing to dump them for $75 for the two boxes.
I listed them one by one on eBay, but with this caveat:
"I know nothing about model railroading in general or American Flyer cars in particular. If there is information I should be giving you, please ask questions and I will include the info in this and future listings."
That's what the bidders did, they asked questions.
But they *knew* to ask questions because I told them I was a neophyte.
Me, I'd assume that an old toy dealer selling old models knew what he was dealing with. I'd be incensed to get the email drjackk got.
posted on August 29, 2004 11:59:46 AM new
If you want to get technical, the auction reads "as as" and not "as is" Very bad Customer service on the seller's part! Lousy pictures too! Make sure your negative includes a caveat to model buyers since his intent is to sell more of the collection in next few weeks.
edited to add: if that listing isn't keyword spamming I don't know what is!
**********************************
Sig files are too much trouble!
http://stores.ebay.com/Moody-Mommys-Marvelous-Postcards
[ edited by neglus on Aug 29, 2004 12:01 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2004 12:41:17 PM new
Here is the actual email exchanges. In fact, I don't want a refund as much as I want him to admit he did not list it correctly and to do so in future auctions.
My first email after receiving the kit
I recieved your kit. You stated it was started, but you did NOT say it was a wreck. If I had gotten it for $15, I probably would not have said anything, but this kit is a MESS and for $36+change, is an issue!! It cannot be saved, even for parts. The glue problem all over it makes it's value amost nothing, but does NOT appear clear in the picture of the kit in the box, nor did you describe it. The box is good. I assume you are not a modeler, so I can understand somewhat not describing the glue mess. What can we do to fix this problem? It is a good box. Don
his reply
Well as in discription I sell old used toys as is.Also I paid $30.00 for that kit because I saw a empty box sell for $25.00 about a year ago.With ebay fee's I am about dead even.Thanks,Jeff.
My counter
Jeff
It is immaterial what you (or I) paid for the kit and what they sell for or how YOU and your finances turn out. Someone may have been looking for a particular box and was willing to pay $25. I am a major seller of kits, and ALWAYS note OBVIOUS defects.
Yes, selling them "as is" is fair, as long as you give a clear description of what you are buying, and if a small piece or two is missing, you do take a risk as a buyer. But this kit is a mess!
Yea, as seller I agree with you "as is" is fair business. However, you did not tell about the poor construction or the Glue everywhere. That is critical information that is not clearly shown in the picture. A proper description is as follows
Kit is partially assembled (poor job with glue everywhere, quite a mess but appears complete), but box is nice. Kit sold "as is".
Ok, at this point, I can make an informed buying decision. THEN if I did not like it, you kept your end of the bargain and it is shame on me.
The picture provided does not show the glue everywhere, nor did the description provide enough info for me to make an informed description. Put yourself in my shoes. How would you feel if you were on the receiving end of this deal? As is is fair as long as the buyer can make an informed buying decision. As is does not free you if you withheld obvious vital info that is in front of you and is not clear to the buyers. Yes, you will get less for your kit, but that is the way the game is played, honest does have a price, ethics are not free.
While I am waiting for your final answer, I will put this question to "the board", a Seller driven group that usually consists of 20-200 people at Vendio. com who comment on such problems with sales. I will put it too them as though I was the seller. I use them as a sounding board in case I have problems as a seller. I did not think to use them when I am a buyer, but this should work well.
Awaiting your reply
Don
(NOTE I decided NOT to put me as the seller, I was afraid you might think I was dishonest, so I just told it like it was)
He replied
Well,I am anything but a expert on models so you should have asked questions before you bid on this item.You should only buy your models from experts or I am afraid you are in for many more let downs.As in discription.I SELL OLD TOYS AS IS.I ask you never to bid on my auctions again.I will not wast anymore time or money on this auction.If you want to post bad feedback go ahead.I will also post feedback for you.
I replied
So apparently you are a cheat! and a thief. Everything for you and screw everyone else? Too bad! You make me sick at your complete lack of business ethics. It is dealers like you that are giving ebay a bad name, and justly so. I would not just like to give you a bad feedback, but eliminate your ability to sell on ebay. Unfortunately, that is not in my power. I am now beginning to understand why ebay is headed down hill, customers cannot trust people like you, and make it difficult for honest sellers like me.
These are NOT questions I should have to ask from an honest dealer, even if he is not at expert. You could not miss the glue mess, and you should always list defects if obvious. If you are that incompetent, you should have someone else sell the model kits for you, obviously you are dishonest or completely dumb. I have purchased 1000's of kits, yet have issued only one bad feedback in 5 years from both expert and novices in my purchases. You can check out my feedback and confirm this.
Don't you know what Ethics are. Do you understand the word HONESTY. It is not bad or good feedbacks, these should not even be the issue here. You see, all I was interested in was seeing if you were honest, or really did not know. But after your answers of "me and my problems, how much I paid for it, etc, I understood with you, it did not matter. You are just plain dishonest, lack ethics.
I will be putting this sale and its circumstances to the board this morning. I will be "you", so that they do not know I am the victim. Good or bad (or no feedback) will depend on them, not me.
Go to church to day. Look and ask "what would Jesus do". Go read a book on business ethics. You have my pity, you must really need the money bad, but bad enough to steal it? SAD for you.
Don
And that is the current situation. I guess if he does nothing, I give the bad feedback. I was planning this
Guy is selling junk model kits as good. Email me for email exchanges [email protected].
posted on August 29, 2004 12:48:11 PM new
you should know by now what kind of risks you take buying on Ebay??
He said 'as is' or 'as as',in ebay jargon,thats take your chance,i aint promising anything.
Paypal will get involved with item severely not as described if it is under installment payment plan.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 29, 2004 05:40:36 PM new
Hi drjackk
From checking his closed auctions he seemed to describe his items in detail, he also seemed to show good close up pictures, but in the item you bid on He didn't show a good picture, he didnt describe the merchandice in the way he should have, so I would say he did that on purpose and hes trying to hide behind the........Selling As is Items........
I feel He knew what he was doing when he didn't mention what he should have said about this item.
He also has very good feedback so one Neg. is not going to bother him.
I would tell him that you are returning the merchandice to him and expect a refund, minus shipping. You are very unhappy with this item and you feel he didn't describe it properly.
He needs to learn "Customer Service" and your complaint is a true complaint and He knows it but hes more worried about holding on to the money then pleasing a customer.
I would email him again asking him for a refund, and then if he don't respond to you I would contact ebay by phone and see who you can complain to about this seller.
Here are the Ebay numbers - 1-800-322-9266 1-888-749-3229 1-877-438-3229 (California only) 1-408-558-7400 Hours 7:30 AM 5:30 PM PT M-F
posted on August 29, 2004 06:28:09 PM new
Ebay is not going to get involved in this he said/she said squabbles.
Dont waste your time.
If the seller paid 30 for it and now he unloaded it on you for 36,he is not going to take it back,one neg wont kill him.
just chalk it up to experience,'as is' on ebay means take your chances.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 29, 2004 06:48:01 PM new
The use of the phrase "as is" can have many meanings. It depends on the context in which it is used. It can be used to describe a piece of DOA equipment that is useful only for salvageable parts and cannot be used for it's original intended purpose. It this case, it would cover the seller if there might be a couple small pieces missing that he, not being an expert, would not know about. It can never be used as an excuse for concealing obvious defects or damage that a non-expert could reasonably be expected to notice. It can't be used as a substitute for poor quality pictures or evasive descriptions. And it can never be used to give a seller a license to steal.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on August 30, 2004 05:28:23 AM new
spark,
you can say anything you want,I can say why not buy the item from a reputable store,instead of an individual in cyberspace ??
We all know why??
why do people buy 'Tiffany' jewelry on Ebay,Picasso painting,Rolex watch,thousand years old antique??
Why?? why? why??
Your second cup of coffee is on me!!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 30, 2004 05:30:26 AM new
drjackk said-
purchased a model kit recently. The dealer had pictures and said kit is sold "as is", partially assembled.
////////////////////////////////////////////
The word 'DEALER' is such a loose term on Ebay,anybody,everybody is a dealer on ebay!!
just like every woman is a model and every man is a consultant on enviromental safety.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 30, 2004 05:38:02 AM new
stopwhining
Good point!
To those of who you don't get the gist of it - people are CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP!!!!!!!!! Something for nothing is the name of the game. And NOTHING is what you sometimes get.
Cheryl
. . .if you still try to defend the infamies and horrors perpetrated by that Antichrist- I really believe he is Antichrist- I will have nothing more to do with you and you are no longer my friend.. . - War and Peace, Tolstoy
From looking at the auction I see a little link on the right that says "Ask seller a question". In my opinion the number one reason why people are dissatisfied with purchases on Ebay is because they do not use that link.
OK you are a collector so why would you bid high on that auction with the bad picture and poor writeup without asking a question or two. I have looked at the sellers other auctions and it looks to me that he described this item the same way as all of his other auctions. It doesn't appear to me that he tried to cheat anyone.
I put lots of info in my auctions just to stop the questions from coming. My wife does most of the buying but rest assured that we use that button if anything is not 100% clear to us. My biggest question is usually on shipping. Standard shipping means media mail to me so I always email before bidding and ask.
Again in my opinion this seller did everything he was supposed to do. All of my listings except CD's state AS IS and I stick by that policy. I also leave positive feedback the second I get payment because the buyer did their part. If you left me negative I would just add a comment to it stating that buyer does not know how to read or ask a question, look at my other feedback. I always get defensive when answering emails from buyers who complain because they generally fall into two categories, 1. Can't Read 2. Want something for free.
One last note, just because he sells vintage toys does not make him an expert on every toy every produced. Models may not be his thing. That would be like saying that someone who sells china should know about every piece produced, just not going to happen.
"I can imagine a no more rewarding career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.'" John F. Kennedy 1963
posted on August 30, 2004 08:35:59 AM new
'I can imagine a no more rewarding career. And any man who may be asked in this century what he did to make his life worthwhile, I think can respond with a good deal of pride and satisfaction: 'I served in the United States Navy.'" John F. Kennedy 1963 /
./////////////
THE US NAVY???
give me a break,it is not the US NAVY,it is MARILYN MONROE and all the starlets he screwed.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 30, 2004 08:59:45 AM new
One last note, just because he sells vintage toys does not make him an expert on every toy every produced. Models may not be his thing. That would be like saying that someone who sells china should know about every piece produced, just not going to happen. Chief****navy
I do understand what you are saying, but If you were selling a piece of china, and it had been broken and reglued, and the bottom of the cup was missing, don;t you think you should mention it in your ad? I do, and I don;t kinow squat about china!
And cheap cheap cheap does not fit here. The price of the kit was NOT cheap. If it had been, I would not have cared, but I paid the going rate.
This glue mess did not appear in the picture, was not mentioned in the ad. In my opinion, I should not have to "ASK" about obvious flaws. And as I put in the reponse, I have bought a lot of kits over the years from a lot of experts and novices, and have had only one bad feedback to give (and it was to an expert who was just plain crooked).
Should I ask every seller "are you a crook"? Should I ask that question every time too?
Just what can you assume??
If a seller shows a picture of a watch of a Rolex, and sends you a cheap imitation, should you have to ask "it that the watch pictured you are selling me?" to have a legit complaint? I guess by your rules, that is what we have to do!
Finally, I do appreciate your answers, even if I do not agree with some. I guess the business ethics I was taught in school are just thrown out the window with ebay. I have to admit, some of the answers just amaze me.
Don;t you realize that lack of ethics and honesty could kill the golden ebay goose?
posted on August 30, 2004 10:05:16 AM new
He's in a might makes right situation.
He's gotdecent feedback, he's playing the "clueless" card and he's got "as is" auctions.
Take this as a lesson learned:
Don't patronize sellers who have "as is" auctions.
You can't control the "selective" photography or his lack of brain cells to rub together to fire off a spark of intelligence so you must rely on feedback. Well don't.
You could try returning it, I have had refunds on "as is" auctions, one seller sold old stock boots, the foolish woman didn't know they were not leather...so I got a refund. No more "as is" all auctions final without goooood photos and excellent explanation of the defect. Keep all emails and if something is not revealed, that is your out.
No matter how stupid a seller is, they can be even stupider when it comes to making a mistake.
He should have started it low and taken the item fully out for all to see. He knows that the value is in it's age and condition, otherwise he would have explained the glue.
He knows, this little scumbucket, that his is a crime of omission.
Of course you will neg him and expect a retaliatory neg, because sellers are just as low as bidders in that regard.
~~~~~~~~~~~**~~~~~~~~~~~
Avatar wish list....
posted on August 30, 2004 10:23:20 AM new
what lesson should be learned from this experience ??
many-
ebay is an auction
ebay is a fleamarket in cyberspace
ebay is a playground for the novice,experienced ,professional and amateur buyers and sellers
ebay is a place where you can 'steal' an item at low price
ebay is a place where you can get taken,either thru your own greed or seller tricks
only bid up to the amount you are willing to lose
if 36 dollars is going to make you whine for days,you better stay away from ebay and go to a real store.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on August 30, 2004 10:40:02 AM new
I think the seller should take the item back myself but obviously he is not going to do it. Did you pay through Paypal and did you use a credit card? If so, send it back, registered mail, and then file a dispute with your CC company.
Beth
www.vintageads4u.com
posted on August 30, 2004 11:08:38 AM new
I cannot understand how so many of you feel it is OK to be a seller and not describe an item to the fullest.
Any child could have given a better description of this item with all the glue mess as mentioned by drjackk.
I sell everything and I don't know about everything but I research out information when I don't know so I'm able to describe items to the best of my knowledge, but when WE as Sellers leave out things that are most important for a buyer to be able to make a decision then we are not doing what is right.
How can you say a buyer needs to know what questions to ask of a seller, it is the sellers responsible to say all they know and SEE when listing an item,........that is part of being a caring seller, not just one that wants to take advantage of buyers who don't know what to ask?
I bought a Tiffany Ring, stated it was Original.......well it was not Original.........I told the seller I'm sending it back and I expect a refund, which I did and I received back my money. His remark to me was, "sometimes things fall through the cracks".....yeah right......lol
I don't believe that drjackk is worried about his money as mentioned, It is the principle of how the seller misinformed the buyer in his description and took advantage of this buyer by purposely leaving out the most important part of information, and the seller knew what he was doing when he did that, now leaving a neg is fine but it does not correct this situation.
I sell but I do buy also and it's a nightmare buying on ebay, I sometimes wonder how we do get buyers to trust and bid on our auctions, when they have bad experiences with lots of Sellers.
posted on August 30, 2004 11:22:29 AM newebay is a place where you can get taken,either thru your own greed or seller tricks only bid up to the amount you are willing to lose if 36 dollars is going to make you whine for days,you better stay away from ebay and go to a real store.
I see. So if someone is looking at your listings, he either assumes you are a liar and a thief, or else he is a fool.
Interesting universe you live in. Don't think I'd care to do business with you.
Carnival hucksters have a name for people as you see them: marks.
--
[ edited by iareateacher on Aug 30, 2004 11:23 AM ]
posted on August 30, 2004 11:28:24 AM new
I know that I have a lot of problems caused because of sellers with no ethics. When I sell something "as is" I point out the problem, tell them about it in the description, then say AS IS NO REFUNDS on this item with bold letters and underlined. So far, all of the people that have bought damaged stuff from me have been happy with it because they got exactly what was promised. I also use lots of pictures with everything that I sell and am leery of people that just show one distant, blurry picture of an item. I also know full well when I bid on anything, it may be trash and I bid accordingly. (I started out buying at real time farm auctions, most of the time what sounds great is really junk.)
The lesson learned; be gun shy as heck at all times, ask when in doubt and expect the crooks. You will be pleasantly surprised when you find REAL people.
Kevin
posted on August 30, 2004 11:36:09 AM newI sometimes wonder how we do get buyers to trust and bid on our auctions, when they have bad experiences with lots of Sellers.
Amen !! I'll second that...
My 50.00 bad experience I had with a intake for Jason's truck ...plus the way over charge on shipping 25% of Ebay sellers charge makes me very leery of buying anything on Ebay. I have to need to really really bad to look there first or even last for that matter.
Shame Shame On Your Seller drjackk ,With his high feedback rating he knew he should have pointed out the glue mess. I know that we as sellers can't be perfect but I know I try really really hard not to miss any bumps or bruises that an item might have and if it's got one you'll know about it.
posted on August 30, 2004 11:49:23 AM new
iareateacher-
if you are a teacher,i hope you are retiring soon!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
[ edited by stopwhining on Aug 30, 2004 11:50 AM ]
