posted on January 20, 2005 03:44:36 PM new
Sorry.... a bit long but an interesting view on where eBays' loyalties lie (hint: it starts with $ and ends with $)
I have a friend of mine who, unbeknownst to me, decided to to bid on and subsequently won several auctions from an eBay dealer in Canada. He is relatively new to the field of Asian antiques and despite previous warnings from myself and others, he bid and won these items to donate to a fundraiser for a local organization. It was to be a surpise but he got spooked after winning but before submitting payment (over $2000 USD PLUS high shipping PLUS a $35 per auction fee for a (worthless) certificate of authenticity). He spilled his guts to me and another friend, both of us who own respected antique showrooms in Scottsdale. We reviewed the all the seller's auction and could conclusively determine that EVERY item the seller sells is a modern production despite claims on every piece to be Ming and Qing dynasty. (I was already familiar with this seller and his brazen fraud). He emailed the seller with his concerns and received no constructive answers, only smoke and mirrors, blah, blah, blah. The seller was also pushy about him paying through a money wire (red flag) and insisting on using UPS despite a request to send to a P.O. box (another red flag).
So what happened? My friend was concerned from the tones of the e-mails and changed his contact info with eBay( a dumb move but...) because he was afraid the seller might come after him by phone or mail or whatever. (a little paranoid in my view as no explicit threats were made). He then informed the seller he was not going to follow through on the auctions based on our input, left negative feedback and contacted eBay and filed several fraud complaints. NOT ONE DID EBAY REPLY TO. The next day, the seller made his feedback private. (four unkindly but accurate negs).
In the mean time, he was contacted from the one auction from this seller that he did NOT win, with a second chance offer to sell the item outside of eBay. Well, actually it was from a DIFFERENT user ID. On my advice, he checked the ID and found that it had only been registered for two weeks. The next day, he receives ANOTHER second chance offer for the same item to sell outside of eBay from yet ANOTHER ID, this one registered a few days before! He re-checked the first eBay ID, it had been Naru'd. The next day, so had the other. Upon further examination we noticed similar type of ID names bidding up several of this seller's reserve auctions and I was pretty convinced this seller has multiple ID's and whenever he gets a sucker like my friend, he bids the price up.
So I tell my friend to file fraud reports for all these violations. A week later, not only no reply from eBay but now my friend is NARU'd and this seller has had the negs removed!
Now I know this seller has had a number of complaints filed against him as he has been referred to on several other forums of which I am a member. But eBay seems to embrace a high volume seller who pays ALOT of money in listing fees and FVF who they KNOW is selling fake antiques, ignore all complaints registered against him and they NARU a newbie!
I CANNOT believe that eBay is on solid legal footing here. But since neither of us are attorneys or know the ins and out of how eBay operates, any advice we would receive here would be greatly appreciated. I would be happy to clarify any points that may be confusing.
Thanks for any help. I know there is a wealth of experience and knowledge on this board.
posted on January 20, 2005 03:58:54 PM new
Your friend should be happy that they are not out thousands of dollars in junk. I think ebay is great for small $$ transactions, under $100. I personally think anyone is NUTS for spending much more on that per item. I know that will not make a lot of people happy around here, but I know I won't spend more than that on an ebay auction.
posted on January 20, 2005 04:06:02 PM new
They NARU'd him for changing his contact info.
I understand about UPS only and we're not implying anything about you or any other honest seller but if you ARE selling fakes, then sending it by mail constitutes a federal offense (mail fraud).
I would swear in Federal court that everything this guy has is a fake and I have the background to support it.
My friends user ID is "Marcopolosfootprints' and I have his permission to post it.
posted on January 20, 2005 04:07:15 PM new
Out of curiosity - what international freighting company do you know of that DOES deliver to PO Boxes? You state this is a red flag but I can't think of any company that would do it. Since you are an atiques expert I assume that you know of one.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
[ edited by fenix03 on Jan 20, 2005 04:09 PM ]
posted on January 20, 2005 04:20:58 PM new
Ya know, I'm just a little yacky about the word "fraud...
I had a guy the other night who was gonna sic the FBI, CIA, HUD, BBB, and his Aunt Nellie on me & Ralphie because of our "fraud:"
SIX MONTHS ago he looked at a scale in a retail store but didn't purchase it -- he then buys it from me last week & received it & starts yelling "knock-off" and "crooks" and "fraud" because the scale I sent him was different than what he saw SIX MONTHS AGO!
Well, yeah, the manufacturer CHANGED the appearance of the model -- BFD! I sent him links, etc & he then profusely apologized, but my point is that these terms seem to be thrown out at the drop of dubya!
If yer convinced this dealer is a FRAUD, then DO something about it!
posted on January 20, 2005 04:24:11 PM new
Jabs in his feedbacks:
looks rather new for Ming, besides its indicated 1850+,?!!
item doesn't look like antique
must have great camera, items not as good looking in person
Jar is very pretty, but a complete FAKE !
i've collected over 30 years this is a total fake and a poor one at that. F+F+F+
Reply by minek1: Our items are from well respected collections, we welcome lab tests ! Nov-24-04 15:58
Follow-up by tromanator: send 200.00 for lab test , not a fake i'll send you 1000.00 thats how sure i am Jan-14-05 15:19
I was nervous about this item and the vendor did not reply to my email
A piece from the lucrative business of fake chinese antiques ... What a joke !
Reply by minek1: Claim not based on facts. The cup is original.
Follow-up by buyer: LIAR! PIECE WAS APPRAISED .FAKE ! NEW STUFF MADE IN CHINA . A SHAME...
The vase supposed to be 19c jade is 20c soapstone uneconomic to return Beware!!!
Rating Withdrawn: Buyer and seller mutually agreed to withdraw feedback for this item. Learn more. Jul-21-04 18:51
item not that good of quality for the price. Shipping was too much. Fast service
japan c. 1700s What a joke.... Beware NEW<NEW NEW!
Reply by minek1: Japan c. 1700. Not new. Buyer had a chance to return it, didn't want to.
Great fast service, lovely old style plate - but new, not 18th century Kangxi
Reply by minek1: Not true. The plate is original. Please contact us to resolve problem.
Doesn't appear to be bronze but some other white metal, Not old.. But pretty
Received a fake replica; refused following auction delivery and stopped payment.
Reply by minek1: Not true. Buyer did not even receive this item after cancelling the transaction. Mar-03-04 14:12
Follow-up by elen_suki: Correct. This 2nd order cancelled, after first order item received was fake. Refused further delivery after first jade carving received was fake replica.
Regardless of 'damage', item was a bad replica - a complete fake. Beware!
Reply by minek1: Not true, based on no facts. Buyer not willing to pay, just wasting my time.
Follow-up by elen_suki: Many years experience with authentic and museum quality antiquties.
Item measuremets incorrect..Customs did not believe old,freight badly handled.
Most unsatisfactory.
Fake. Shoujld be driven off EBay.
Fake-cheap and badly done-refused to provide provenance
High likelihood fake-I collect-cheap imitation. Descrip misleading
Was emailed that it was for 2-got one with casting plaster still attached. NEW>
Antique hand carved marble vase was actually modern cast resin !!!! A FAKE...
Reply by minek1: Buyer got full refund; I wasn't aware the vase was made of resin.
LOL!
[ edited by estatesalestuff on Jan 21, 2005 04:28 AM ]
posted on January 20, 2005 04:30:22 PM new
Thank you, estatesalestuff.
Look, this Chinese antique thing can seem a bit troublesome for people without extensive experience and fakes are being made today that can trouble many experts. What this seller has is modern stuff I can pick up at most any street market in China. Not even close to "well, maybe".
"For those who believe, not explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
posted on January 20, 2005 04:43:24 PM new
Well, I know NOTHING about Asian Antiques (Ralph is the EXPERT on all that ah-sole stuff), but I did read THIS:
"Shipping: We ONLY ship to the U.S.A. , Canada, U.K., France, & Germany by UPS Service. LOST insurance (3% of the final price) is optional purchase for the shipment within North America, and required for shipping overseas."
Which part was unclear?
The "ONLY" or the "UPS Service"?
Nothing burns Ralphie's cute little furry butt more than when our listing says UPS ONLY -- NO PO BOXES and we get the P&M brigade...
Is your friend a total newbie to Asian antiques??
For that kind of BIG bucks, did he inquire of the seller aboue the possibility of escrow?
VISIT: Ralphie's Eclectic Garden of Earthly Delights & Swedish Marital Aids here: http://tinyurl.com/3rd5a
posted on January 20, 2005 04:51:34 PM new
Okay, tomwiii, I get your point. And actually, the seller DID agree to to send to P.O. Box after being asked. But this isn't ABOUT that.
Did you read the whole post or only the parts that you could flame? How about the fraud, multiple IDS, second-chance offers outside of eBay, shill-bidding and eBays' condoning it?
Doesn't THAT burn your furry butt?
"For those who believe, not explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
posted on January 20, 2005 07:02:50 PM new
Both Ebay and Paypal do not get involved with ITEM NOT AS DESCRIBED.
It is not possible to prove which party is right,it is a he said/she said situation.
Say if Ebay asks the seller to submit one of the so called Ming dynasty jade incense burner,now what is Ebay going to do?
get an expert from butterfield & Butterfield and study it?/
Soon ebay will be studying every piece of antique jewelry,gemstones,qing jade,ming bronze,egyptian scarab,tibtan thanka,millions years old dinasaur egg!!
Where does it end??
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on January 20, 2005 07:22:07 PM new
It is not an assertion. It is a fact. You can choose not to believe it but it is reality.
The only way to get this guy is to actually pay him, receive the crap and then file fraud reports. Actually, my friend has contacted Canadian INS to file a report with them as the seller is actually a Polish immigrant.
The neg ratio just shows the vast number of uneducated idiots looking for a dime store bargain. My friend, unfortunately, was one. And he was an idiot for getting spooked, I'll give you that.
It does not change the fact, and yes, FACT, that he is selling new merchandise as antiques. It also does not change the fact that he violated several eBay rules regarding sales outside of eBay, disguising his identity, and probably shill bidding on his own auctions. My friend, and now I, have the e-mails to prove.
Yes, eBay is only a venue. It also has an obligation to investigate reports of violations and fraud and if it ignores these and continues to allow the seller to function then they are aiding and abetting and getting paid for it.
.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
[ edited by echoesofasia on Jan 20, 2005 07:23 PM ]
posted on January 20, 2005 07:43:35 PM new
So, your friend bid on $2000 worth of merchandise and refused to pay for it, he tried to change the terms of the auction after he bid on it, he changed his contact info to something that was obviously invalid, and he turned the seller in for fraud even though he has never seen the items that he claims are fake. You then decide that this guy has several ID's (which is allowed) and is shill bidding.
I don't see any reason for eBay to NARU him. Would you want them to NARU you just because some non paying bidder wanted them to? Like Tom said, if you have proof he is shill bidding, turn him in. If you have proof he is the guy that offered to sell off eBay sent the e-mails.
"the seller is actually a Polish immigrant"
How in the world do you know so much about this guy?
Be kind. Everyone is fighting their own secret battles.
...Author Unknown
posted on January 20, 2005 07:48:51 PM new
He has been turned in multiple times by multiple ebay members. No reponse from eBay to anyone. They refuse to look at it.
I have just had it clarified that the seller demanded payment sent by wire transfer,Fedex, DHL or UPS but not by mail.
"How in the world do you know so much about this guy?"
Googled his real name.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
posted on January 20, 2005 08:18:41 PM new
"He has been turned in multiple times by multiple ebay members. No reponse from eBay to anyone. They refuse to look at it."
eBay will not contact you or tell you what they find out or do about it. If he didn't get the boot, it could be that he is not shill bidding or no one can prove he is a fraud.
"I have just had it clarified that the seller demanded payment sent by wire transfer,Fedex, DHL or UPS but not by mail."
$2000 is a lot of money. You said he is in Canada. Did your friend ask him if there was a reason why he wanted it sent that way?
Only 9 people were unhappy. Most of them were newbies.
I just Googled on a guy named Nick Trotta. Guess what? There's a dozen, ranging from guys in high school to someone who died in 1957. None were the guy I wanted.
Be kind. Everyone is fighting their own secret battles.
...Author Unknown
[ edited by Gtootie on Jan 21, 2005 08:22 AM ]
posted on January 20, 2005 10:25:46 PM new
I agree that buying Asian antiques on Ebay is insane if you don't know what you are doing, but that can be said about paying high dollar for any type of item in any category.
Between all the fake chinese "antiques" and "designer" purses listed by sellers in China, there must be a lot of suckers out there.
I looked at the auctions in question and everyone of them said that seller accepts Paypal. Could be, he would not accept Paypal from a newbie buyer. Which would be an intelligent decision by the seller.
As for his merchandise, it is questionable, but not as questionable as many of the others I see on Ebay. The seller deals in 18th and 19th century figures which are about as common in China as baseball cards are in the US.
This seller has managed to find over 900 people willing to pay him outrageous shipping for common items. Is it his fault? In this case I don't think so.
The value of anything is subject to what the buyer is willing to pay. In this case, it appears there are many buyers willing to pay.
There is a term for what has happened here: you friend decided, after the fact, that the items were not worth what he had bid on them, the term is called buyer's remorse. Questions should have been asked before the bid. Ebay should have been alerted if there was any suspicions as well, BEFORE BIDDING!
With all that said, it does tick me off at the number of misleading auctions on Ebay, but I have seen the same thing going on in the tourist district of every major city, in every country of the world that I have ever visited.
I still love my $19.99 Rolex that I bought on a street corner in New York in 1991. It does not even look like a Rolex and yet I have seen people drool when they look at it and see that Rolex name. My amusement comes from knowing that these people don't have a clue. I get some sick insane joy out of telling them it is a fake. Silly Me!
posted on January 21, 2005 05:59:30 AM new
what does being a polish immigrant in Canada has anything to do with selling on Ebay?
and why the big fuss over reporting him to Canadian govt when no money has changed hands?
Antiques are rare,there is only that many antiques in this world,esp those of good condition,esp those made of valuable material such as jade.
If that piece of jade carving is indeed antique,first Chinese govt has banned any export of antique jade over 100 years old(0r 125 ,they may have changed that)so if they show up on ebay every day,one must question how do these sellers get hold of such antqiues?
second,antique jade is handcarved,read books on jade and you will learn how it is carved,modern repros are machine carved,look at the pictures and a jade collector can tell the difference.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on January 21, 2005 06:16:17 AM new
I'm sorry ye be defensive, but sumptin is stinky in Denmark, CHINA!
Everybody (including Ralphie) knows that the Chinese 'knock-off' SW & NBA PLAYERS & LV HANDBAGS & THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING & everything else under the sun known to man & beast...
But yer friend, after LEAPING OFF the TURNIP TRUCK blows $2000 on "Chinese antiquities" without escrow or research??????
Sorry....
VISIT: Ralphie's Eclectic Garden of Earthly Delights & Swedish Marital Aids here: http://tinyurl.com/3rd5a
posted on January 21, 2005 06:18:32 AM new
okay,i just look at this guy 's listing and what your friend bidded on- 4 terra cotta horses.
There is a street in HK called Hollywood Road and it is packed with antique shops with these terra cotta fat ladies and horses and soldiers of the First Dynasty,plus all the white jade carvings .
They are all repros and some are very well made.
If your friend or is this really you ,who had bidded on these items for resale,i dont think they are that bad,you could make a buck or two reselling in your shop.
Think of all the troubles he went thru importing them from China into Canada.
BTW,he may be Chinese,not Polish.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on January 21, 2005 09:42:23 AM new
Okay, we see where most of the opinions fall. I agree, my friend was stupid and naive to do what he did.
I AGREE!!!
The only thing I can say in his defense and against the predominant sentiment is that being stupid and naive is NOT a crime.
What the seller is doing IS!
Much of what we know about the seller cannot be shared without revealing his true identity and therefore for the purposes of this discussion certains things can not be openly demonstrated.
What "stopwhining" said about many of his items being well made repros is true and the realistic value for these new item is not bad. Then why blatantly misrepresent? The seller has put alot of thought and effort to present a false front.
And NO, I am not "my friend". I don't even buy in Hong Kong, tooo expensive. I trAvel throughout China and Southeast Asia to buy my goods. I don't need to buy from eBay. crooks.
"Limitations of Liability
***** DOES NOT MAKE ANY REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY,EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS OR CONDITION OF ANY ITEM OR AS TO THE CORRECTNESS OF DESCRIPTION, GENUINENESS, ATTRIBUTION, PROVENANCE OR PERIOD OF ANY ITEM. All items are sold as authentic and antique unless clearly stated otherwise."
Excuse me, what the heck is THAT?
(Conveniently stated in paragraph 9 of the link to his terms and conditions near the bottom of his auction description.)
If the majority of you support the seller's side that says alot about your moral character. You basically are saying its okay to misrepresent, buyer beware, and if you screw up by bidding tough. I hope that's not the way you run your businesses.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
posted on January 21, 2005 09:48:03 AM newNoooooooo....
You are equating disagreement with your opinion with dishonesty or lack of morality...
Instead of providing FACTS or PROOF, you demand that we all agree with you that this seller is a crook???????
Ain't gonna happen...
You still have not provided where & when you lodged OFFICIAL complaints with the POLICE & FBI & BBB, etc,etc....
How do we know you aren't just a competitor indulging in...????
"Show me the MEAT..."
"For too long, too many people dependent on Social Security have been cruelly frightened by individuals seeking political gain through demagoguery and outright falsehood, and this must stop.The future of Social Security is much too important to be used as a political football." ~ Ronald Reagan
posted on January 21, 2005 11:40:52 AM new
You said you have an antique store in Scotdale and you buy from China and southeast asia,then you must have seen your fair share of fake antiques,and i would not be surprised to walk into your shop and see 'antiques' which should have been labeled 'antique repros'.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on January 21, 2005 11:53:23 AM new
stopwhining
I'll give you $100 for every item you find in my showroom that has been misrepresented. Everything new is marked "NEW". Now you are attacking my integrity without a shred of proof to support it.
tomwiii
The guidelines of this forum prevent us from posting more detailed info regarding this seller.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
posted on January 21, 2005 12:02:25 PM newPuleeeeeeze!
What? Did ya just get hired by Karl Rove, or sumptin??
If ya have a POLICE REPORT, tis a simple thingy to SCAN it & then BLACK OUT personal identifying info -- you can use IRFAN-VIEW...
Tis eazy-peezy to do: the NIXON guys did it HUNDREDS of times ("expletitive deleted")
"For too long, too many people dependent on Social Security have been cruelly frightened by individuals seeking political gain through demagoguery and outright falsehood, and this must stop.The future of Social Security is much too important to be used as a political football." ~ Ronald Reagan
posted on January 21, 2005 12:13:07 PM new
i would love to earn that 100 dollars,I am not saying you sell fakes deliberately,i am saying you probably dont know they are fakes.
Back in the 80s and i am sure this goes on today,a savvy singapore lady with connectons in China was notified an important antique has been located in China.
Enough information were sent to Singapore for her to make a replica.
She took the replica into China,registered with the chinese govt ,switched the item for the real thing and left the country .
Voila,her replica stayed in China waiting to be rediscovered as 'antique'.
You want more??
Not too long ago an Ebay seller from Seattle sold mostly Chinese antiques on Ebay,most impressive arrays of goods from jade to bronze to blanc de chine ,he offered a money back guarantee if the buyer can produce the name of the expert who proved otherwise or TL testing .
He claimed some of his items are TL tested and backed by words of experts/university professors in HK .
Impressive farflung operations ,sometimes the item is located in ASIA and sometimes they are in USA.
Finally he was exposed by seattle newspaper and he stopped selling on ebay,but his me page carried an explanation from a HK professor claiming the item in question has been certified by him as authentic,if it is not,then it must have been tempered without his knowledge.
I just happen to know a bidder who came from a family of antique dealers in Macau and has many old jade pieces in Kansas where he resided,he bot an item from this guy and left glowing feedback.Why?
It turned out that he was hoping to get a job from this seattle dealer,thats why.
Todate,there are quite a few dealers on Ebay selling antiques and passing out certificates,one is based in Canada,all his jade pieces are machine carved and his feedback is private.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on January 21, 2005 12:50:16 PM new
"Think of all the troubles he went thru importing them from China into Canada.
BTW,he may be Chinese,not Polish,or could be a Boston Terrier."
posted on January 21, 2005 12:58:17 PM new
We have gotten way off the track of our initial inquiry.
tomwiii,
read my signature line...it applies to you. Proving ANYTHING to you is a waste of my time as this thread has become.
stopwhining,
A TL test can only prove an item as a fake, it cannot authenticate a piece based solely on its' results. TL tests in HK are not as reliable. Tests done through Oxford are far more reliable. I can spend hours telling antique stories but again we are far off the point.
"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will do."
