posted on March 25, 2001 12:09:11 AM new
>>He probably had no idea of the force he could exert with actions that to him may have been as much play as meanness.<<
Yes, except that most 12-year olds know better than to stomp other children to death. If I was a juror, I would not buy that argument. I think the whole "wrestling" excuse is contrived and totally unbelievable. Take away that bit of theatrical fluff and you're left with a cold-blooded murderer.
Baduizm, do you really think that a child like that can be rehabilitated? All that can be accomplished is to remove him from society. Yes, it's a shame. No, I don't see any way that the boy will ever come out of this a "productive member of society."
KRS, congrats on your 10,000th post. I've got them all recorded in a database, which I run as a inspirational screensaver.
posted on March 25, 2001 12:33:27 AM new
twinsoft,
Presuming that you somehow could know that "most 12-year olds know better than to stomp other children to death", perhaps by close association with your peers, how would you explain the fact that were I to give you a tweak by tensing my index finger against my thumb you would shriek for a week, whining that I'd tried to kill you?
Can I have read this correctly: "do you really think that a child like that can be rehabilitated?"?
I think that there's some misuse of terms in that. A child rehab? I've always thought that children, by definition, are in "hab", so to speak, learning to live within society. But this one is beyond learning? Where is that line drawn? How about a child who tosses his or her hampster into the pool to see if it can swim and it drowns? That one too must be beyond hope.
So no child can be "rehabilitated". Children haven't even been habilitated yet.
posted on March 25, 2001 06:01:50 AM new
Baduizm - You asked: "Or has the juvenile system abandoned rehabilitation in favor of warehousing..?" From what I'd heard on the news, the Tate boy, in the Juvenile Correction Center I posted previously in this thread, goes to classes during the day and is receiving councelling in the early evenings.
BUT while reading a lot of material that's on the internet in regards to juvenile justice I found this:
http://www.ojjdp.ncjrs.org/pubs/juvoff/sentence.html which said, "As many states have shifted purpose from rehabilitation to punishment...."
Other sites for information on juvenile justice are:
One that states Juvenile arrests for murder and nonnegligent manslaughter increased by 90% from 1986 - 1995 While these %s have gone down since 1995 they are still double what they were in 1986.
http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/165152.txt
posted on March 25, 2001 06:35:49 AM new
Again, race had nothing to do with this case. Yes, racism is alive and well in this country (unfortunately), and no, if one is not black or walked in someone elses shoes, they would have no clue as to what its like in that aspect. Same could be said for anyone of any faith, creed, sex, color, religious belief, etc. I am soooo tired of race being brought into every action taken by the courts against someone who does a crime(especially this particular one).
[ edited by Hepburn on Mar 25, 2001 06:51 AM ]
I'm tired of it also. But,I grew up in Mississippi and saw first hand how race is indeed an issue. In the courts, schools, housing, churches, health care, jobs...the impact is endless.
But since you feel so
strongly that it is not an issue, we can remove that aspect from the
case and still, we have a child sentenced to life imprisonment without
parole for a violent act that resulted in the death of his playmate.
There is a resonable doubt that the child did not intend to kill
the other child. Children of 12 years of age are still developing
their ability to reason and control their behavior.
Rather than just letting him rot, as you suggested earlier in this
thread, why not give him a chance by treating him as a juvenile.
posted on March 25, 2001 09:05:26 AM new
"Rather than just letting him rot, as you suggested earlier in this
thread, why not give him a chance by treating him as a juvenile".
Maybe my words were a bit strong, but its how I felt at the time. And still do, to some extent. I am having a really hard time finding pity for this "boy", Helen, and hope you can understand my point of view. I keep thinking of the little girl. Her cries of pain, of wanting mommy, while she was battered and dying.
Not growing up in the south, I haven no idea of what racism is like there. Not being raised around it, I have no clue. NOt being raised as a racist, I only know what I read in the papers and have experienced growing up as white, from what black friends have told me and what I have seen myself. Yes, there is alot of hate thriving. I dont deny that. I just dont see it in this case. Thats on me, though, my opinion, my view. Instead of progressing, humankind is regressing. How depressing.
posted on March 25, 2001 09:39:22 AM new
Race had NOTHING to do with this kid MURDERING an infant, and it had NOTHING to do with his being found guilty.
This kid was bright enough to know that he was at the MINIMUM, inflicting serious pain on this BABY.
You aint gonna tell me that he never fell, or bumped his head, or stubbed his toe, to where he KNEW that pain was being inflicted.
It is just plain ignorant to beleive that at 14, he had no idea that he was hurting this BABY severly!
Hell, at 14 I was driving a car, and knew not to drive head first into a brick wall,
how were YOU all at 14?
Think about how bright you were. Maybe not Mature, but pretty bright, no?
It is ridiculous to even consider that race played a part in this!
All it does is take away from the trials and tragedy where race IS a major factor.
Cry wolf, and nobody cares after a while...
Remember that?
Johnny Cockrin <sp> and his band of croanies didn't stay out of criminal cases long, huh?
He's just another media monger who is dedicated to KEEPING the race's seperate, and the criminals/murderers on the street.
Who next? Rev. Al Sharpton?
These people discrace the blacks, they don't help them. The do it for their own gain and notoriety, and no one else!
posted on March 25, 2001 09:44:18 AM new
I also should add that 14 or not, if that were MY BABY that he MURDERED, "I" would be on trial, and "HE" would be statistic.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:10:46 AM new
Helen, I would like to ask you a hypothetical question. IF you have a 6 year old child, or even grandchild, in your care, that you are raising, and IF the courts agreed and gave permission (as well as the mother), would YOU take this child in your home to "rehabilitate" and "pity"?
Actually, he was 12 when the death of his playmate occurred. He is 14 now.
You may be right, that race had nothing to do
with his conviction. But it's my opinion that
he should be charged and convicted as a juvenile, not as an adult. He should be
in a juvenile facility, not an adult prison
for the rest of his life without possibility of parole.
This is a tragedy for everybody even if race
is not considered.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:19:33 AM new
Pocono - I totally agree with everything you stated in your 9:39 AM post.
Al Sharpton did orginally get involved in this case. Haven't heard if he still is or not, now that J. Cochran is involved.
At age 12 I was babysitting for neighbors and friends of my parents. I was responsible for the caretaking of very young children. I knew right from wrong. So, I too, have a hard time with Tate's mother insisting Lionel was "just playing". At some point Lionel had to realize she was in pain and stop.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:23:36 AM new
Cochran getting involved in this is a crock. He IS a disgrace. In fact, the mother and her son both are a disgrace. Has any interest been shown the mother of the dead child? Any pity there? And show of compassion? No. The concentration is on this "thing" called a "boy". I have as much compassion for him as I do the two kids who tortured and murdered the Bulger boy.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:25:49 AM new
Im not afraid of him either, Helen. Im bigger than he is. And smarter. But my 7 year old grandchild isnt. And neither are my pets. No way would I put them in danger. And that kid is that. A danger. So he is where he needs to be.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:41:18 AM new
Well, I am curious as to why they are making sure this kid goes to classes and gets counseling. I mean what's the point? He's been sentenced to prison for the rest of his life. Do they really think that schooling is going to somehow make his life more meaningful? Like he's supposed to grow up and have a career? And "counseling" is going to do what for him? What's the point of taking his life away and then tell him he has to go to school and get counseling? Is it somehow supposed to make spending the rest of his life in prison more "productive"? What a crock.
posted on March 25, 2001 10:51:01 AM new
What is the technical word for someone who doesnt have the ability nor desire to understand compassion, pain, hurt, death? It escapes me. Obviously, if this boy wanted to move in with Tiffany's mother and have her toys, he is that word. And maybe someone bigger than him with the same technical word applied to him, will take him up on his offer to wrestle. Maybe then he would understand "ouch" and "pain". Doubtful. Im still having a hard time finding any compassion within myself. And I still am glad hes where hes at. Forever.
posted on March 25, 2001 11:02:13 AM new
Hi KatyD - My answer to your 'why' would be that I believe most people involved feel the sentence is going to be lessened/changed. So, his education and 'much needed' counseling should go forward, until a final decision is made. That's my guess.
Hi James - Your URL said in part, Lionel seems, by all accounts, to be a big oaf of a boy who did not intend to kill his wrestling mate, 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick That, obviously, is one writers opinion. (Though many others seem to agree with that belief.) For me, I feel the jury heard all the details about this case, and they decided differently.
I watched the mother being interviewed on TV explaining why she wouldn't agree to the lesser charge, when it was offered several times. When questions were asked of her about any previous signs of 'rough play' on Lionels part, or past problems in school or the fact that there had been a couple of problems since he was locked up, she wouldn't answer. She just kept saying those issues had nothing to do with this trial and her son was just playing. Maybe she had to show a 'tough face' to the public, as this is so very serious to her sons future. But I was surprised by her seeming lack of compassion for the death that had occurred.
I would fire this reporter first thing in the
morning. The article which is slanted and
without documentation is a miserable effort
to report this story.
If it's an editorial, it's even worse.
I could go over it point by point but I don't want to reproduce it on the internet.
posted on March 25, 2001 11:14:19 AM new
Linda, I know that's an opinion piece. I happen to respect that writer a lot (although I basically disagree with her in this instance -- and others). That's why I posted the link.
This topic is 7 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new7new
and his band of croanies didn't stay out of criminal cases long, huh?