posted on March 28, 2001 11:29:19 PM new
chococake: Then niether is anything else posted here, for you all get information from somewhere, do you not? So, if the Word isn't consistant with indipendent thought, then niether is anything you or anyone else has written if you have used anything for a reference point.
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:15:24 AM new
Take scripture out of context? You do that as an avocation, dd, for that is the only way that you can preteend to yourself that those ancient myths have any application in a modern world.
But, it is obvious that you have missed the point, again, of the discussion here, and gone off on another of your silly and useless witnessing campaigns. We were talking about prayer in school, dd, and if you would reread my last post perhaps you will see through the fog which enshrouds your intellect that that is all that is at hand. The lengthy post of mine cannot be refuted by you, but you need not concern yourself with that for it is not addressed to you or any point which you had previously made in this thread even though you had made none. So if you possibily can, stick with the train.
You waste everyone's time spouting out your unthinking drivel like a speaking Pavlovian dog, and if you ever call me a liberal again you had better go and purchase some of those rolled things to put in your nostrils.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:42:55 AM new
It seems to me that KRS has presented his thoughts about God and religion clearly and logically enough so that if there is disagreement with his conclusions, those disagreements could be specifically addressed and logically argued. To vaguely dismiss them as "word games," etc., lends no respectability to an opposing point of view.
The so-called separation of Church and State is another issue which has been argued here before. I see no new arguments presented.
The meaning of the term independent thought is that one has examined all relevant ideas about a particular subject and formed his or her conclusions through a reasoned process of testing and questioning.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:55:06 AM new
Whew... I hadn't realized I was gone that long (unfortunately I have a real job, too!) Anyway, I can't possibly respond to all of the comments made since my challenge except to say that both of my original points still stand unchallenged. For the short term memory folks
A) Atheism is the only State sponsered religion of our public schools.
B) That there is no mention of the Separation of Church and State in any of this country's founding documents.
How hard can it be to refute these two points?
Quite.....
Anyway, someone said I should restudy my history when I said that Jefferson didn't write the Constitution. Really... I guess that explains alot. ladies and Gentlemen, apparently Jefferson wrote the constituiton. That's odd, I can't believe he didn't even get on our money. (Maybey he's on the new $40 bills my uneducated ass hasn't seen yet.
For the record(once again...) I am NOT a Christian. I AM a recovering Atheist. As someone else pointed out so, so, so (well, I'll let krs plug in a multi-syllabic word here to impress everyone.) ELOQUENTLY - yeah that's it! I AM smart!!!so eloquently, once you read enough books on something and try to see things from every perspective, then you'll begin to take on a deeper understanding of something. I once was an Atheist until I studied the farce of MACRO-evolution. Until I see some evidence to prove the genius of krs evolved from a cockroach - he apparently left his fellow cockroaches behind, as they are still more prevalent than ever -until I see he facts, I refuse to have BLIND FAITH in Darwinism. Those of you who choose to though, that is fine. Just don't try to impose the beliefs on everyone else - especially the kids. The other side of the mirror is looking back at you...
PS
Any half-way educated takers on point A) or B) feel free. [krs - please submit an abriged response as some of us almost fell asleep hearing the same old Philosophy 101 discourse.]
You slept through more than your philosophy classes. That atheism is not a religion has been explained above and you haven't addressed those explanations. If it is your contention that all matters of belief are also religions, then all economic, political, philosophical, sociological theories, to list a few of the most obvious, would be religions. The notion is absurd.
That the specific words "Separation of Church and State" are not used in the "founding documents" is obvious to anyone who has studied the issue. Was there an argument that you wished to make based upon that fact?
posted on March 29, 2001 05:47:36 AM new
krs: Show me my drivle. Show me where I have taken scripture out of context. Why is it for the first 60 or so years of public education the only 2 required text's for reading were the Bible and Pilgrim's Progress? Your liberal view of the supposed "seperation of church and state", and the drivle that spews from your keyboard, shows just how uneducated you truely are. Nowhere have i seen you ever counter my facts, in any post, except to say I come here to "witnessing campaign's". I come here to speak the truth, just as you preceive you come here to speak your truths. Pavlov's dog, I am sorry, I do not drool whenever you "ring your dinner bell", or should I say "post your drivle bell". I will admit, you are never at a loss of words, and sadly that isn't always a good thing. You may place whatever "plugs" you will, but mayhap you should remove the blinders from your own eyes and see what I write, not ass-u-me what I think.
Antiquary: Vague? I suppose my thoughts were not presented as well as your friends here. The typical liberal double edge yet applies again: word games can be dismissed if they do not agree with your word games.
jlpiece: I feel you are correct, that athiesm, not to mention socialism, is what our schools are indocternating our children with today. In settings where you are labled a hate-monger for disagreeing with thier points of view (ie;homosexuality), where darwinism (and have I failed to mention that on his deathbed he became a christian, not to cover the "bases" so to speak, but because he admitted he was wrong) is forced down our throats, or the complete coverage of the salem withcraft trials (I know, they were all innocent-I was a wiccan once) are covered but the reason for the settlement of the United States are glossed over, that in one breath you say it is fine to bring a bible to public school, but to open it on the grounds can result in detention or expulsion, that to gather at the flagpole is ok until the Supream Court hears that case this summer, that to preach that life does not begin at conception and it is all right to murder the unborn, while at the same time saying that the death penilty should be abolished, these things sound more like "the fog which enshrouds your intellect " then anything I, or any other christian, or any other conservitive could post here.
I have stuck with your train, but I suggest if you are not prepaired, get off the tracks. This topic was first about the motto of our nation, "IN GOD WE TRUST", so you may as well go back to an itemized bartering system if you cannot tolerate our heritage upon our monies.
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
May I suggest that you take the time to reread what you've posted? I've never seen such confused and multidirected ranting in my life. You do not even seem to know anymore who it is you are addressing and because you don't you are at risk of alienating even a staunch supporter of your whacky views. Consider that you are in public, if it matters to you, and realize that you are embarassing yourself.
Here is the first posted quote in this thread, by the way. Notice that money is not mentioned therin and use that awareness as an aid in seeing just how off of the track your train has run.
"A battle is brewing in Mississippi over a state law requiring a sign reading "In God We Trust" to be posted in every school classroom, cafeteria and auditorium.'
posted on March 29, 2001 06:15:09 AM new
I've got to find a website that will teach me how to string together cliches into a smooth stream of non sequiturs. It's a word game that I've yet to master. However does one acquire that skill!!
posted on March 29, 2001 06:55:55 AM new
You are wrong ,krs: I know whom I address, and answer accordingly. Money is mentioned 6 or 7 posts down, if you would take time to reread. I used it as a reference, because that is where the motto is generally found. For someone as "expert" as yourself, I have yet to see you refute my points; and I have yet to see you show me where I have used Scripture (when I use it) out of context. Blather on, oh great and knowledgable krs, and impress me further with your very own "rantings". This topic started as; A battle is brewing in Mississippi over a state law requiring a sign reading "In God We Trust" to be posted in every school classroom, cafeteria and auditorium." It was led to the statement of jlpiece about state funded athiesm and the lack of mention of church and state in the Constitution (with the monies angle thrown in between), and statements of a letter by Jefferson about the precieved "seperation", of which the letter he was replying to I have yet to see posted. I provide 3 direct quotes from a text published in 1832, and you do not even have the courage to answer them. You speak of God with one key, then deny Him with another. You babble on about how I "miss the point", when I feel that you have totally missed the train. I back up my statements with facts that are easy to obtain. I have an 1856 copy somewhere of all the speaches the Presidents made when they left office, and off of the top of my head I do not recollect any of them mentioning the seperation of church and state. If our national motto is good enough for our money, why can't it be good enough for our schools? They give out condom's, the pill, and other odds and ends, why not teach our kids the true history of the US? Because it scares most people to see how far we have fallen as a nation. If our motto isn't good enough, then niether should our flag be anywhere because it could be considered religious, since when it was made, and Key formed the words to the National Anthom, he stated: "Even God can see our flag, and by Him it still stands". Remove all references that offend the newly "culturally and politically correct", and we are going to be left with as much pretended history as people like Clinton can devise.
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:09:12 AM new
So, you missed this post? Or you are not able to follow an unhighlighted link?
krs posted on March 28, 2001 12:35:19 AM
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should `make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore man to all of his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties".
I think that you'll find that a famous father , the father of an evidently quite beautiful black child, wrote that.
http://w3.trib.com/FACT/1st.jeffers.2.html
Blind faith is one thing, ignorant belief is another.
dd, you are so mixed up that I find it impossible to even feel clear that I know what you are trying to say. Whether that is the case or not, given that you have fallen to rather unchristian name calling as your only defence I feel that you are not worth the time it would take to respond to you. A very pitiful performance, in my opinion, particularly from one who takes up on the foreffront of the furtherance of your supposed beliefs. You are the most unchristian christian I've ever had the misfortune to encounter and you should be ashamed of yourself.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:19:56 AM new
I guess that is your truth, krs: a christian is supposed to stand in the background, never show humanity, and always be silent. Yes, I missed that post of yours, as it is not highlighted here. And I only reply in kind to how I am directed by another, krs. You have made statements about me, and I have kept, for the most part, silent. I speak my peace, and you yet again resort to name calling. I understand, though. Your of the newly enlightened breed, of a type that will forever befuddle me. I have no shame, krs, but you must-you mention it quite often.
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on March 29, 2001 07:49:58 AM new
Yes, you miss much, dd, and I cannot find a way to reconcile your behaviors with your claim of reverence and peace derived from the teachings of the man you supposedly have dedicated your life to follow. As you see, humility is not counseled only by Jesus; it is rather a cornerstone of faith in many belief systems and if there is truth in the existence of God it is in the universality of similar thought around this world over all time.
"Let there be no injury and no requital". Islam. Forty Hadith of an-Nawawi 32
"One should choose to be among the persecuted, rather than the persecutors". Judaism. Talmud, Baba Kamma 93a
"Victory breeds hatred, for the defeated live in pain. Happily live the peaceful, giving up victory and defeat". Buddhism. Dhammapada 201
"For behold, they had rather sacrifice their lives than even to take the life of their enemy; and they have buried their weapons of war deep in the earth, because of their love
towards their brethren" Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Book of Mormon, Alma 26.32
"In wars to gain land, the dead fill the plains; in wars to gain cities, the dead fill the cities. This is known as showing the land the way to devour human flesh. Death is too light a punishment for such men who wage war. Hence those skilled in war should suffer the most severe punishments". Confucianism. Mencius IV.A.14
"Those who beat you with fists, Do not pay them in the same coin, But go to their house and kiss their feet".
Sikhism. Adi Granth, Shalok, Farid, p. 1378
"You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn
to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles".
Christianity. Matthew 5.38-41
"Those who are insulted but do not insult others in revenge, who hear themselves reproached without replying, who perform good work out of the love of the Lord and rejoice in their sufferings... are "as the sun when he goeth forth in his might."
Judaism. Talmud, Yoma 23a
Chi K'ang-tzu asked Confucius about government, saying, "Suppose I were to slay those who have not the Way in order to help those who have the Way, what would you think of it?" Confucius replied saying, "You are there to rule, not to slay. If you desire what is good, the people will at once be good."
Confucianism. Analects 12.19
posted on March 29, 2001 08:37:23 AM new
KRS said, "You are the most unchristian christian I've ever had the misfortune to encounter and you should be ashamed of yourself."
Are direct insults now tolerated by the moderators by anyone, or is this just more of the same old same old towards favored posters?
I bet if I was to say that, "Krs is the most liberal athiest I've ever had the misfortune to encounter and he should be ashamed of himself", the emails to the moderators would fly and one would show up here very quickly to tell "everyone" to remember to address the post not the poster. But then I am not going to say that to krs, so we shall see what is allowed another time in another thread.
posted on March 29, 2001 10:01:12 AM new
I'll just ask a quick question, since nobody has attempted to refute my original points with anything resembling facts. We'll consider those points made and move on. Next point for you to chew on... If liberalism or Atheism are so progressive then why is it the more of a foothold those beliefs take in society, the more violent and irresponsible society becomes. I take it that's a coincidence right? There weren't a whole lot school shootings or unwanted teen pregnancies 30 or 40 years ago - Although guns were MUCH easier to get and unprotected sex was MUCH safer. Any takers on why these parralels exist?
posted on March 29, 2001 10:40:36 AM new
Also, somebody posted that they didn't agree that the definition of religion that their fellow Atheist jamesoblivion offered was not met:
4. A cause, a principle, or an activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
If you don't believe that Atheism is pursued with zeal, lets not forget that this thread has generated over 70 comments - mostly by Atheists, who are trying to argue their points against the few who disagree. Is that not "zeal"? And I believe that you all sincerley believe these things you say, and are not going to be swayed by anything other than a life changing event or something significant - isn't that "conscientious devotion"? Now, who could sincerley argue that Atheism is not "a cause, principle or an activity"?
I do not advocate the banning of the Atheistic viewpoint or the Christian one for that matter just because I don't happen to agree with either. All I am saying is why are Atheists so afraid to have any other ideas presented to the children alongside of the current Atheistic curricula of the public schools? Every college and University in this country offers many classes on all forms of belief - what's wrong with presenting the viewpoints side by side for the comparison of the children. Why indoctrinate the children with ONE belief for the first 12 years of their education, and provided they actually go on to college, only then begin to open these doors? Surely you "progressives" can't be against that! Information - just present it and let the kids decide for themselves. Is that so hard?
posted on March 29, 2001 10:54:01 AM new
Your argument that crime is caused by liberal policy is a myth.
As was pointed out by a poster from Mississippi, the crime in her
capital city, Jackson, is the worst in the country per capita.
Although I believe that is an exaggeration, I did some research and
found that the crime has in fact,doubled in Jackson from 1970 to 1995. During
that same period of time, it has tripled in New Orleans.
Do you believe that this is because the conservative southern states of Mississippi and Louisiana have implemented
liberal policies?
posted on March 29, 2001 12:25:49 PM newjtlpiece:lets not forget that this thread has generated over 70 comments - mostly by Atheists, who are trying to argue their points against the few who disagree. Is that not "zeal"?
<sigh> No "zeal" involved--merely people trying to explain something to you. Namely, atheism is not a religion.
All I am saying is why are Atheists so afraid to have any other ideas presented to the children alongside of the current Atheistic curricula of the public schools?
Hello!?! There *is* no "atheistic curricula." Children are not being taught that there is no god (or gods). There is merely an absence of religion.
It seems to me that many Christian homes must be sorely lacking. They must be. The home is where children learn about their religion. The parents are the ones who are supposed to take their kids to the church of their choice & oversee their children's religious education. Outside of 6-7 hours a day, five days per week, children spend their time with their family. So why is it that so many Christian parents claim that because their children don't spend 24/7 being preached at, prayed over, praying, etc. that they are being taught to be godless or without morals? Those parents must not being doing their jobs as parents. Or perhaps, deep down, they feel there is something lacking in their own religion & that its disciples will stray if allowed even a few hours without "hearing the word."
edited cuz "oversea" just isn't the same as "oversee"
[ edited by bunnicula on Mar 29, 2001 12:27 PM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 12:50:43 PM new
I've been avoiding getting into this end of the debate, but now I have respond to one or two things:
jlpiece:, I was the one who suggested that you go back to school. However, you are incorrect in your response, "... I guess that explains alot. ladies and Gentlemen, apparently Jefferson wrote the constitution."
You see! Without taking the least effort to go find out for yourself, you make another misstatement. FYI, the writing of the US Constitution was a collaborative effort, who was spearheaded by Thomas Jefferson, who was directed to do so , since he had the best handwriting. It could be argued that technically he wrote the US Constitution; that is, he was the one to put pen to paper, but that would be a deception.
Do you now see that you have to go back to school and get an education? Your other statements lack the same credibility.
"A) Atheism is the only State sponsored religion of our public schools."
Huh? Show me one public school where Atheism is taught. You can't, because there isn't any. It's all too easy to make misstatements if you don't expect to be called on them.
=============
ddicffe >>WOAH!!<< You said, "where darwinism (and have I failed to mention that on his deathbed he became a christian, not to cover the "bases" so to speak, but because he admitted he was wrong)"
Now this is a direct lie given out by the Creation Research Society, or CRS to people who swallow what they have to say whole. This lie is often brought up in debates about evolution and is just as often dismissed.
posted on March 29, 2001 12:56:51 PM new
Saying "atheism is a religion" isn't any different then saying "monotheism is a religion". Since it is obvious that monotheism is not a religion one wonders how athiesm becomes a religion, except in the unique interpetation of one particular person.
posted on March 29, 2001 01:00:10 PM new
Hello Everyone,
The personal comments and insults are just incredible. You have had a recent nudge. I will have to lock this thread if you can't discuss the subject and not the poster.
I cannot recall a religious discussion that did not end up getting locked.
posted on March 29, 2001 01:07:30 PM new
Excuse me, ddicffe,
You have alleged that to take a bible to school is ok, but if you open it you are liable to detention or expulsion. You have also alleged that students cannot gather around the flagpole to pray without coming under the scrutiny of the Supreme Court.
Where is the evidence for these allegations?
As someone who would oppose the "In God We Trust" sign going up in every classroom, and who would abhor the idea of school-led Christian prayer, I dislike the idea of people freely being able to worship in their own time.
If they opened their bibles and began preaching at everyone in the schoolground, then YES, I would find that objectionable and worthy of detention or expulsion. If the prayer meeting under the flagpole took the form of condemning all the heathens who were not praying, then I would find that objectionable too.
So... Can you please provide the evidence for your assertions of the discriminatory behaviour towards Christians, including the context of their behaviour being found objectionable?
posted on March 29, 2001 01:51:30 PM new
Just the thought of teaching different religions in public school makes me laugh. There is no way Christians would go for that. They only want Christianity taught. Can you imagine the uproar when Johnny comes home and tries to discuss what he learned in school today about Judaism or the Muslem faith. Parents would think their kids are going to convert to another faith or become an Atheist.
There are not many true Atheist's on this board. I'm one of only a few. Just because people argue a different view doesn't mean they are Atheist's.
Also, I don't see Atheist's knocking on doors to tell people what they believe and to join them. There is no "word" to spread, we just don't believe, and more or less keep it to ourselves.
I also don't see any sig lines with Atheist in it.
posted on March 29, 2001 03:05:20 PM new
Mivona - You have alleged that to take a bible to school is ok, but if you open it you are liable to detention or expulsion. You have also alleged that students cannot gather around the flagpole to pray without coming under the scrutiny of the Supreme Court.Where is the evidence for these allegations
There have been many challenges about students doing anything that involves God while in school. Do a search on 'prayer in school'. I easily found one and have read many news articles where different school districts, who don't want law-suits, so they stop the students from praying while at school. Because so many states and different school districts have different 'rules' about praying in school, and people were complaining about their right to freedom of religion, Clinton (on 5-30-98) wrote and had the Secretary of State send to all school board a "Religious Expression in Public Schools" letter. His letter supported student's rights to voluntarily practice their religious beliefs, including prayer in/at school.
I read a case of this happening that did make it all the way to the US Supreme Court. I'll try to find the url for you...think it's on the US Supreme Court case site.
[ edited by Linda_K on Mar 29, 2001 03:14 PM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 04:08:02 PM new
I find it sad that Freedom of Speech is threatened by those who support banning the posting of the National Motto in public schools.
