posted on March 29, 2001 05:33:41 PM new
As someone else mentioned, the idea that Darwin denounced his theories on his deathbed was denied and called a hoax by his daughter, who was actually there.
posted on March 29, 2001 05:48:01 PM new
It's OK KadyD. The Freedom of Speech comes in handy for fundies only when they think that everyone from being shielded from being proselytized. But Freedom of Speech is a double-eged sword, and lookit how they all squeal when it's used to prevent them from diminishing everyone else's right to Freedom of Speech! Oh, no! -- only THEY get to have Freedom of Speech! Everyone else has no rights whatsoever!
posted on March 29, 2001 08:12:05 PM new
Thomas Jefferson wrote the Virginia statute that says: No man shall be compelled to support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall suffer on account of his religion, opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess their opinions in matters of religion.
James Madison wrote in a letter: The number, the industry, and the morality of the Priesthood, & the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the Church from the State." http://www.au.org/press/pr31601.htm
The 1797 Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli says in Article 11: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." This treaty was read aloud to the senate and unanimously approved, and signed by John Adams in 1797. You can read the entire treaty here: http://www.freethought-web.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
Finally, some historians believe that many of the founding fathers did believe in God and a creator, but not necessarily in Christianity as we know it today. Religious freedom and tolerance has a much greater role amongst our founding fathers than many Christians want to believe. http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
Lisa
[ edited by jtland on Mar 29, 2001 08:17 PM ]
posted on March 29, 2001 08:25:20 PM new
Inside, You ARE sad, and maybe that's why you find so many things sad. Sad is as sad does. Sad Sadie, sad situation, what a sad person, it's sad to see someone with so much sadness,......and on until the tears roll out.
Give the world a break.
Thanks for that. I know that the research into the truth of these points is tedious sometimes, particularly so when the result is often ignored for conflicting with the "truth"
posted on March 29, 2001 09:35:59 PM new
Someone said:
"They only want Christianity taught. Can you imagine the uproar when Johnny comes home and tries to discuss what he learned in school today about Judaism or the Muslem faith."
Take a look at Sonlight 5th Grade if you want to see what many Christians are teaching. http://www.sonlight-curriculum.com/catalog/grade.html
"Students are required to do one major research project concerning one of the world's great non-Christian religions."
Your comments to inside are personal and could be considered insulting. Please stick with the subject of the thread and consider this a warning that your posting privileges are in jeopardy.
posted on March 29, 2001 10:15:19 PM newJoice: is jt and jtland the same account? I'm getting confused!
jtland! Thank you for that unexpected bit of research! You know, these arguements go round and round endlessly unless there is some solid, concrete reference materials. I am soooo sick of hearing about how America was founded upon the principles of Christianity, when in truth, it was founded upon the principles of Freemasonry which reflected the great thinkers of the time.
posted on March 29, 2001 10:31:07 PM new
Lots of things could be considered insulting. For example, this is insulting:
[i]"I bet if I was to say that, "Krs is the most liberal athiest I've ever had the misfortune to encounter and he should be ashamed of himself", the emails to the
moderators would fly and one would show up here very quickly to tell "everyone" to remember to address the post not the poster. But then I am not going to say that to krs, so we shall see what is allowed another time in another thread"[/i].
posted on March 29, 2001 11:08:21 PM new
teri - first of all the first link that you provided is for home schooling (which I know you do), and not any public school.
Oh yes, I did see that they recommend the project to study other religions. But, the reason is not to learn about and accept other peoples beliefs, just the opposite.
Some of what I read:
We believe children should be made aware of false beliefs and foolish ideas. They should be made aware of these ideas and then carefully instructed about why the ideas are false, foolish, or wrong. Moreover they should be taught how to respond to false and foolish ideas.
Teach students tools techniques knowledge and skills of Godly intellectual warfare.
The view here appears to be that personal prayer, bible reading, worship and [b]voluntary/b] collective prayer, bible reading or worship is ok in schools.
It is when religiosos starts wanting everyone to join in their prayer, their form of worship, and accept their religious beliefs that people start saying, "Nope.. not OK."
The link you provided seems pretty clear cut on it, and if you have found some schools that subsequently are ignoring this guidance, then you certainly have cause for complaint.
The gist of the guidelines are:
"These guidelines continue to reflect two basic and equally important obligations imposed on public school officials by the First Amendment. First, schools may not forbid students acting on their own from expressing their personal religious views or beliefs solely because they are of a religious nature. Schools may not discriminate against private religious expression by students, but must instead give students the same right to engage in religious activity and discussion as they have to engage in other comparable activity. Generally, this means that students may pray in a nondisruptive manner during the school day when they are not engaged in school activities and instruction, subject to the same rules of order that apply to other student speech.
At the same time, schools may not endorse religious activity or doctrine, nor may they coerce participation in religious activity. Among other things, of course, school administrators and teachers may not organize or encourage prayer exercises in the classroom. Teachers, coaches and other school officials who act as advisors to student groups must remain mindful that they cannot engage in or lead the religious activities of students.
And the right of religious expression in school does not include the right to have a "captive audience" listen, or to compel other students to participate. School officials should not permit student religious speech to turn into religious harassment aimed at a student or a small group of students. Students do not have the right to make repeated invitations to other students to participate in religious activity in the face of a request to stop."
However, I have not seen any details of such prayer meetings as yet, so I cannot say whether I beleive them to fall within the guidelines. I look back to my schooldays, and can just imagine the smug so-and-sos in my school, demanding their right to "free speech and religious expression" while loudly praying for all the souls of the sinners they saw around them.
posted on March 30, 2001 12:49:09 AM new
First off, I would like to thank <b>jtland</b> for bringing such insight and scholarship into a discussion that has evoked mostly emotion. In over 100 posts, yours was the only one with solid evidence to support your beliefs. Although I disagree with most of what you say, I find it hard to argue with facts. One thing in your post that I would like to point out that I think still needs to be addressed is this:
<i>Thomas Jefferson wrote the Virginia statute that says: No man shall be compelled to support any religious worship, place or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, <b>restrained</b> or burdened in his body or goods, nor shall suffer on account of his religion, opinions or belief, but that all men shall be free to profess their opinions in matters of religion.</i>
Restraining someones religious beliefs is just as bad as trying to enforce them.
Whoever made the comment about this country being founded on Freemasonry was actually closer to the truth than any of us.
posted on March 30, 2001 02:05:23 AM new
I suppose, jlpiece... it all boils down to how you define "restraint".
You have the right to practice your religion. You do not have the right to impose it on others. If that is restraint, I consider it to be a good restraint.
I would be very unhappy to be harangued by someone expressing their religious views. I have the right to not be harangued.
Everyone has the right to free assembly to practice their religion. This does not include the right to assemble at my home or any other place not owned by them without permission. I would not be happy at having to be forcibly included in such assembly, or having my child being forced to attend such assemblies in school. I have the right to have my own religious views (or non-views) respected.
There are limits to all of our freedoms, depending on their impact on others. Finding the balance that everyone can live with is the right thing to do.
posted on March 30, 2001 08:25:00 AM new
Because I have seen the results of prayers being taken out of schools, is all the more reason for wanting prayers to be allowed back in the schools.
I am a Christian. I believe in God. The Bible is the Word of God. I feel sorry for all those who do not know Him as your Savior. He died on the cross for all of us. That is my belief.
The decision is yours. I can only hope you will see that God does love you and He does care for you and will be there for you when and IF you decide to seek/call on Him.
I will not argue with you who do not believe in my God.
I say this humbly and sincerely, I hope you will come to know Him.....before you die.
"A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
Theodore Roosevelt
"In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength."
Robert Edward Lee
"I am sorry for men who do not read the Bible every day. I wonder why they deprive themselves of the strength and the pleasure ."
Woodrow Wilson
Not long before she died in 1988, in a moment of surprising candour on television, Marghanita Laski, one of best-known secular humanists and novelists, said: "What I envy most about you Christians is your forgiveness; I have nobody to forgive me."
"For God so loved the world that He have His only Son so that whoever believes in Him should not be lost, but should have eternal life."John 3:16.
posted on March 30, 2001 08:39:52 AM new
jt
I was hopeing to see a response from you for my above post concerning your link to the sonlight-curriculum.
More from that site:
In the eighth year rather than permitting only evangelical Protestants to tell us about church history, we permit apologists for the three other main historic brances of Christianity-the "Church of the East" (known in the West as "the Nestorians", The Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholic Church-to speak in defense of their respective communication.
Even though these are brances of Christianity, they are refered to as the "other side", and still looked at as holding false beliefs and foolish ideas.
posted on March 30, 2001 11:21:29 AM new
I love statements like this one: Because I have seen the results of prayers being taken out of schools, is all the more reason for wanting prayers to be allowed back in the schools."
Have you ever heard of faulty reasoning? What are you saying...because public prayers are not allowed in school, we now have Taco Bell providing school lunches. Yeah, that's a really bad thing. Because public prayers are not allowed in school, more kids are now vegetarians. (Or maybe that's because of Taco Bell. Hmmmm?)
Kids can pray all they want in school, just not in a public forum. Not being able to force your beliefs on other students may be a hard thing for you to accept, but in my opinion, that's a good thing.
Finally, if you want to talk about school prayer, did you know that in Catholic schools (where I assume prayer is mandatory), this is what showed up in a 1987 study:
• Forty-five percent of Catholic school seniors had been drunk during the two weeks preceding the survey, compared to 39 percent of public school seniors.
• Twenty-one percent of Catholic school seniors had tried cocaine, compared to 17 percent of public school students.
• Forty percent of Catholic school seniors had shoplifted during the preceding year, compared with 29 percent of public school seniors.
Now if you want to take part in faulty reasoning, I could say that school prayer makes things worse. Obviously, that would be a silly conclusion. Just like the statement that lack of school prayer causes shootings is silly.
posted on March 30, 2001 12:19:52 PM new
Um... I know! I know!
Because England allows prayers to be said in schools, THEY don't have as many school shootings as in the US.
No, handguns are illegal in the UK, so that is why there are fewer school shootings.
Seriously, psalms... just WHAT KIND OF PRAYERS ARE YOU PROPOSING? From what ideological basis will the prayers spring?
Just how do you think this will benefit students? What impact will this have on their education?
What will happen when some other sect wishes ITS prayers to be heard instead? A rota of prayers? (images of facing Mecca in the school gymnasium...)
What behaviours do you correlate with the lack of organised prayer in school? If prayer is so crucial to the well-being of children, just why aren't all these Christian parents having their children pray by themselves in school, or on their way to school, or on the way home from school, and after school, and before and after homework, and before bed? Surely, the length of time that the children have at home is sufficient for them to be inculcated with the Christian values you uphold. Just why do they have to be foisted upon others of differing faiths?
posted on March 30, 2001 01:41:03 PM new
As a teacher I know, and I believe Dan will agree with this point, as long as there are tests there will be prayer in school.
Sorry, old joke, but still funny.
As for the rest: You folks who want your kids to 'know' religion: YOU DO IT!! Get off your butts and take Johnny and SuzyQ to whatever church, meeting, tent revival, whatEVER you want.
Teachers have enough to deal with.
Anyone who thinks that prayer in school is NOT the same as TEACHING religion is a fool. Kids want to know the who, what, when and why of what they are doing (as well they should). I personally have no problem sitting down and explaining that THIS group thinks X,Y, and Z and THAT group thinks A,B, and C. HOWEVER, I have neither the time nor the inclination to deal with the parents who will be up in arms because I either didn't do it 'right' ("I can't belive you told MY kid about Buddah.....MY kid should only know about 'God'"......if you think that won't happen, you've never taught in the public school system) OR because I didn't emphasis the 'corret' point at the 'correct' time.
posted on March 30, 2001 01:46:24 PM new
Spot on, lotsafuzz...
The reason there are problems in schools and in society is NOT because there is no organised prayer in school... it is because parents think that everyone else is responsible for educating their kids, and giving them a moral grounding. But oh! trying to discipline their kids! NO WAY!
posted on March 30, 2001 01:57:05 PM new
Why thank you, lotsafuzz...
And as you are an educator, may I tell you how much I appreciate the very difficult job that you do? At one time, teaching was one of the most respected professions in the country - those who are "looking after the future of America".
Now, with low pay, and low morale, I admire those who can hold onto the vision of what it is that they do. It is a VERY important job.
, The Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Roman Catholic Church-to speak in defense of their respective communication.