posted on October 8, 2001 12:24:30 PM new
To Whomever,
I have conducted alot of business through paypal for a little over a year and have had no problems. Until I was defrauded by a seller, $2,200 worth. The Story begins with me trying to make a buck over the internet. I found this eBay user selling Unique visitors to your website. I came to a conclusion I can receive money if I resold his packages.
So I resold about 5-6 packages to many different clients. The money I received from my clients, 95% went to this guy for his marketing. Several days pass and no traffic to any of the websites. I email the guy, and he claims he has been sending traffic. I tell him if we dont see any real traffic we will have to request a refund.
I than logged in my paypal account and put a buyer protection complaint through. Takes about 35 days to conduct an investigation. So 35 days pass, and the investigation team takes the seller favor. In otherwords, I am down the hole $2,200+
I asked paypal why did the seller win, they told me since this is a service/product that does not have a UPS number. No way of tracking the service/product. I was very frusterated and did not know what to do. I had to pay back all the money to my clinets, because I was hit with fraud.
$2,200 is alot to lose to someone as young as me. As well that I do not have a job to help raise repaying them clients. My daily schedules are school, business, and learnings. I have finally paid back of what was stolen from me.
So later on the road, I found another man selling the marketing strategies to deliver high amounts of traffic. I purchased a copy, and got the idea I can make some money by making websites, and selling them with the strategies.
So I sold a few sites, and one client, who in fact received the marketing site, domain and the strategies had made a buyer complaint against me via Paypal. Another 35days passed and I won that case. Same case, but this time I am the seller. My luck ran out though, he made a chargeback. I automatically lost the case and down another $500 down the hole.
So my paypal account stays negative over $450+ waiting to get paid back. I notified the BBB and the Federal Trade Commision on 10/07/2001 - guess who called me 1 day later...a manager from paypal.
Briefly explaining to me that paypal is not responsible for anything and they expect me to pay the negative balance on my account. Paypal does a good job with their terms of use, they are not responsible for anything in any situation.
I told the man, I am going to start selling intagible products, and I would like paypal to be the third party involved. I told him I will sell intagible products and not deliver the goods. All the buyers can do is put a buyer complaint through, and paypal covers my behind. I am not going to actually do what I say, I just say this for example.
So while committing fraudulant acts, I will not be pursuade because paypals terms of use says so. This is great for all those fraud out there, more money to rob from us guys who work hard for our money.
I had a dream that paypal will be closed by one group. I hope I will be a member of that group! Paypal seems to do or care nothing about their consumers....except all they care about is there lousy fees they charge for the transactions people send/receive.
The man I spoke to today clearly stated I am not going to get my money back. I asked him how he can sleep at nite, protecting fraud characters, etc...no comment stated.
I spoke to a man who has been defrauded through Paypals system, and he told me him and his lawyers are going to crush paypal, and very soon. I knew when paypal opened they did not know what they were doing. They charged fairly cheap and provided great service. Now since they have over 5 million users, they can give a damn about their consumers.
I am a young man, not rich...but make alright through the internet. I am in school and hope to have my own enterprise someday. The enterprise I am scoring for is a 30 story building filled with attornies. If paypal is to survive to that day, I will make sure that the best lawyers are working on closing paypal with all there fraudluant business they conduct!
Thank you for reading my story...please anyone write to me that would be able to help me stop paypal allowing fraud to procede using their services. Becuse if paypal doesnt want to stop fraud, than I will stop paypal!
You can email me at [email protected] - I have a website, if your interested in the url, please email me, thanks
posted on October 8, 2001 02:07:59 PM new
it sounds like you are engaging in sales which involves high risk,selling a service which is unproven and hard to prove,have you done your homework that the service you are reselling DELIVER TRAFFIC??
did you ask yourself how could he drive traffic when so many websites just fall by the wayside??
you should really report to consumer better business bureau ,internet fraud prevention centre instead,there is no easy money out there,we will all find out sooner or later.
posted on October 8, 2001 02:08:21 PM new
it sounds like you are engaging in sales which involves high risk,selling a service which is unproven and hard to prove,have you done your homework that the service you are reselling DELIVER TRAFFIC??
did you ask yourself how could he drive traffic when so many websites just fall by the wayside??
you should really report to consumer better business bureau ,internet fraud prevention centre instead,there is no easy money out there,we will all find out sooner or later.
posted on October 8, 2001 02:13:42 PM new
Hi enterprisesglobal,
I am sorry to hear of the issues you have had with chargebacks, but chargeback liability is present when accepting payments from a credit card. Our Seller Protection Policy is below, which includes how to eliminate liability for some chargebacks (please note that intangible goods are not covered)...
Seller Protection Policy
General. PayPal agrees to indemnify sellers of physical goods from chargeback liability resulting from a buyer's unauthorized use of a credit card and/or false claims of non-shipment of goods. This protection applies to up to $5,000 per year of payments received by the seller through PayPal if the following conditions are met:
The seller has a Verified Business or Verified Premier Account (U.S.). Note: While International sellers may have a status of International - Verified, they do not qualify for and are not protected by the Seller Protection Policy and therefore may be responsible for any reversals made due to fraudulent funds.
The seller ships to the buyer's Confirmed Address.
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.) Because comparable proof-of-shipment is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
The seller accepted a single payment from only one PayPal account for the purchase. (Multiple payments from different accounts for a single item are a fraud indicator. Sellers should not accept such payments.)
The seller ships to a domestic (U.S.) buyer at a U.S. address.
The seller cooperates in resolving disputes by responding in the following time periods: When a complaint occurs, the seller must provide complete information within 7 days of a request from PayPal. However, if PayPal is required by the credit card association to respond immediately to resolve a chargeback, sellers must provide the information within 3 days. PayPal will indicate the response time required in the e-mail message sent to the seller.
If you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy. When you receive funds through PayPal, if the sender's transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. You agree to reimburse PayPal from either your PayPal account or by other means. Although PayPal will vigorously pursue debt collection of any amounts owed to it, PayPal will never make electronic transfers from your bank account without your express permission.
posted on October 8, 2001 03:53:04 PM newThank you for reading my story...please anyone write to me that would be able to help me stop paypal allowing fraud to procede using their services. Becuse if paypal doesnt want to stop fraud, than I will stop paypal!
The problem seems to be that of imagining that there exists a big mother in the sky, to make the bad kids give your money back.
Ain't no such mother.
When your money is gone, no one cares how much you have left. No one cares how hard you worked for it. Cry big tears or threaten with a building full of lawyers, no one cares at all.
You have to watch your money carefully. Because no one else cares.
The #1 rule to avoid the kind of pain you have encountered is "know your product". If you don't understand something, you will probably lose what money you put into it.
You'll find plenty of opportunities to test that rule.
posted on October 8, 2001 07:38:45 PM new
it seem to be human nature we never blame ourselves for our poor judgement,make money quick and easy mentality,greed,etc.
always blame someone else for our mistakes.
there are still people out there who really believe one can make up to 3000 a week stuffing envelope.
posted on October 9, 2001 08:33:57 AM newthere are still people out there who really believe one can make up to 3000 a week stuffing envelope.
I know it's tempting to imagine such people as either young or dumb. Let me explain why you, I, and our families are also far more vulnerable than we might assume.
There are plenty of people in the world who will spread misery to generate income. The biggest such scams don't target the young,who don't have any money. They target the "young elderly", people who have recently, but permanently, lost their ability to make money by holding a regular job.
Often the victims are wives, trying to help out by figuring out how to make some money after the husband has lost his ability to do so. They DID understand the problem 20 years ago. But now they feel desperate. Willing to try anything. And they quickly fall victim.
This sense of desperation clouds judgement, badly. It's the weakness used by sweepstakes scammers to sell merchandise.
Bottom line.
If you are employable, feel fortunate. Some are not. Those who are not employable should be encouraged to develop other ways of rewarding their families and supporters. The measure of a person is not income. Outgo is far more important.
posted on October 9, 2001 09:44:53 AM new
Dear Roofguy,
I believe what you mean by the ones who have the opportunity to get a job in the US. However I wish I was as lucky, thats why I am trying to make income with an internet business over the net.
posted on October 9, 2001 09:48:38 AM new
Dear paypaldamon,
With your long lecture of the Terms of Use, it clearly states how paypal is using such terms to cover there behinds on every transaction. Paypal never cared for there customers, except for their fee's they charge for receiving money.
I dont know what your relationship with paypal is, but I feel I have been defrauded, and paypal seems not to care a damned bit.
I would feel comfortable if I were to start some fraud and paypal to stand next to me and say its OK. I would like to hear a repsonse to that!
I have first not been only defrauded by a seller, but by a buyer as well. My account may be negative $450+ and it will stay that way because paypal allows fraud to work within its website/business.
posted on October 9, 2001 09:50:22 AM new
Dear Roofguy,
I have tested out the mans service and everything was legit on my behalf. When Is tarted sending him more money, he simply decided not to send any more visitors and dissapear for now!
posted on October 9, 2001 10:39:09 AM new
Hi enterprisesglobal,
I am including the information on chargeback liability for the benefit of any user reading the forums. I am also including it to show that PayPal did follow the terms of use relative to chargeback liability.
posted on October 9, 2001 11:00:29 AM new
Another thing I must say to all the people reading this is:
When the guy from paypal called me up, we had a little chat. Since my account was mysteriously closed by paypal themselves, (kind of funny, right after I put the $2,200 buyer protection complaints) I requested the man to send me a log of all my transactions via email and by postal mail.
Basically he told me NO...I asked him why, he told me because he can not. Such a crock of BS...I am now now requesting paypal to send me all my transactions (in the account that was closed) but now I am demanding paypal to send me the logs or otherwise I will have my attorney write an official letter requesting/demanding for the transactions via Snail Mail!!
If paypal wants to play hardball, so be it. But Paypal wont be able to play hardball for very long, as many other users will see what schemes paypal have ability to pull.
posted on October 9, 2001 05:58:51 PM newI have tested out the mans service and everything was legit on my behalf.
Ok, I'll bite.
Can you post a few lines each describing:
-The nature of that business, how and why money flows?
-The value you were going to add, and why you were better qualified than most to provide that value?
-The reason why it made sense for "the man" to sell you his services, rather than to expand his own business?
This isn't some kind of set up to make you look foolish, it's a serious intent to examine a business plan. We don't need a long explanation, a few lines on each question are sufficient to make substantial progress.
posted on October 10, 2001 11:10:26 AM new
enterpriseglobal said --I still blaim paypal for the $2,700 lost.
WHY DONT YOU BLAME YOURSELF FOR GETTING TAKEN BY SOME CON ARTIST??
WITHOUT YOU TAKING THE FIRST STEP TO DECIDE TO DO BUSINESS WITH THIS GUY,THERE WONT BE ANY LOSS ??
if you can post on this board,you must have heard your fair share of cyber scams.
did you study how he drive traffic?/
have you seen any proven record of how successful he is?have you talked to any of his past customer who has a website and is not his relative??
how much time did you spend in this business venture to protect yourself and your customer?
as for stuffing envelope at home and make 3000 dollars,true there are folks who cant and would not work outside home,but we should all know better-simple demand and supply equation at work in a capitalist society,there will be so many people who want to make 3000 by stuffing envelope at home there is no need to pay anyone 3000,it will drop to 1000,then 100 then 50 cents.
take a look at ebay,more listing keep coming,prices keep on dropping-EOCONOMICS 101-SUPPLY AND DEMAND .
you said you go to school,well,talk to your eco professor.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:47:47 PM new
Dear Roofguy,
Here are the responses to your questions:
-The nature of that business, how and why money flows?
ANSWER- This is a Marketing business which provides traffic to a users website.
-The value you were going to add, and why you were better qualified than most to provide that value?
ANSWER- I have been selling over the internet and building many websites for many clients. I decided I can make a profit if i were to resell them to my prior clients.
-The reason why it made sense for "the man" to sell you his services, rather than to expand his own business?
ANSWER- The man took some consideration on my behalf for him to stand in the backround while I resell his service.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:51:15 PM new
Dear Wowwow,
I have tested out this mans traffic on my website, and I have to admit, he was legit. Just when I sent him more money he can handle, he decided to defraud me.
This is my first time writing to these boards. I dont usually read through many forums, but since how I am trying to get my money back, many business colleaues told me to go here to try to get my money back.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:55:29 PM new
Dear Kidsfeet,
Finally someone is seeing why I should receive a refund and not just cut my losses and move on. I believe that is what paypal wants me to do, cut my losses and move on.
Paypal needs to realize that because I may be young, doesn't mean they can rip them off. I may not be able to afford expensive attornies, but I do know my rights. However, I am lucky my father built a nice home for a great lawyer many years back who is helping me try to get my money back.
I hope paypal gets in a class action lawsuit, because they truly deserve it! Not only because they protect fraud, but they protect themselves from being responsible for anything that goes on between their site and their users.
posted on October 14, 2001 02:59:14 PM new
To Whomever,
All I ask is for my money to be refunded, $2,700... and drop this case ever to be heard from again. As paypal seems to be ignoring me for my demanding the paypal transaction logs, it purely shows how cowards they are in not wanting to mail them to me.
I have no way of logging in to my account, and they refused to send me the transactions. I dont know what kind of company this is, but I will never business with them again!
I have already contacted my friend that works with NBC...my goal is to either receive my money back or be on the 5 o clock news telling my story against paypal protecting fraud.
Steven
PS, and paypal demon, don't think I dont have the freedom of speech to say over nationwide television!
posted on October 14, 2001 04:07:16 PM new-The nature of that business, how and why money flows? ANSWER- This is a Marketing business which provides traffic to a users website.
How and why does money flow in this business?
Here's an example of a reasonable answer regarding the business of "television advertising".
"The business of television advertising is ultimately the stimulation of television viewers to purchase the advertiser's product. Money flows from the advertiser to the television industry based on the exposure that the television industry offers to the advertising message. The larger the audience, the larger the payment, and the television industry develops entertainment to gather audience. The paying advertiser benefits in two ways: by immediate sales, and by obtaining widespread recognition and respect for the advertiser's brand."
I'd try to get you started, but I can't really imagine much from the information provided so far.
posted on October 15, 2001 09:59:06 AM new
if i understand the situation-you design websites for your clients and then you resold this traffic driving program to your clients.
clients not happy and demand their money back,and you refund their money but you cannot get it back from this guy ??
i would report him to the better business bureau which probably wont produce any results,have you tried asking your lawyer to talk to him?
can you find him>i dont mean email addr.
lesson to be learned here is deal with reputable business partner,it sounds like you two are working together,at least from your clients point of view.
posted on October 20, 2001 11:30:16 AM new
The clever criminal has learned that he can make bogus accounts on PalPay with ficticious personal banking information. He can then transfer bogus account funds into real accounts and, voila, he has the money transferred to his real account, his friend's account, or use the funds to buy goods and services over the internet.
Here is a letter I sent Paypal... Thanks for your interest...
Dear Paypal,
I am astounded by your attitudes. I called your investigative team with new on a crook who uses multiple Paypal bogus accounts as a vehicle to steal significant amounts of money from untold numbers of people. Iinformation have tracked this crook through the use of accepted investigative practices and discovered his real name and address. Your investigative customer reps appeared not to even care about this information and failed to collect it.
It's easy to see why - Paypal earns money, often double and triple money on bogus accounts. The ill-gotten money gets passed from bogus account to bogus account until it is finally passed to a legitimate account where it is then transferred to the criminal's bank. Clever strategy, a strategy that that will eventually get you more scrutiny and regulation by the US banking authorities, it could end up with Paypal's demise through class action lawsuits, and at best lost business through intense customer dissatisfaction.
The clever criminal will quickly transfer his money to an intermediate bogus accounts to foil recovery attempts. By the time the customer realizes he has been cheated and reports it to Paypal that first bogus account funds will have been moved, leaving a balance of zero. Paypal then complicates the process by taking more than a month to make their determination. This gives the crook more than enough time to have perpetrated many crimes and have made a clean getaway - nice!
The customer then get a neat PayPal response "Our investigation has revealed that the seller is at fault; as a result you are due a refund. However, we regret to inform you that we were unable to recover funds from the sellers account, as the seller's account balance is $0. If this transaction occurred on an auction site, we encourage you to contact that auction site, as they may provide you with insurance coverage."
You must have to bite your tongue to keep from laughing when you state "We value your business and regret that you have had this experience." Please visit www.paypalsucks.com to see how you measure up to customers who have had other and similar problems.
posted on October 20, 2001 11:44:18 AM new
Dear Tranzu,
I must agree with you on what you posted. Paypal does not give a damned about their customers...they have lost their touch. At first they had 24/7 Support...for all their business members...now since they have over 10 million users, they say forget you, and close the 24/7 support and even raise the business account's prices. I don't know what kind of business this is, but that is not how to treat valued customers.
Especially robbing some 17 year old of almost $3000...how can someone live with that...
posted on October 20, 2001 02:01:40 PM new
it has been my impression that it is not that easy to open a bank account-when you move to a new city or new state,say texas,they want you to have a texas id,if not a texas driver license card,then of course they want your social secuirty number,then your prior bank account number and your current employer/
i know my bank told me if they see you open an account with a check drawn on your prior bank and the sequence number is too low,say 107,it tells them you may not have been with that bank for too long.
then if you deposit too many rubber checks,they close your account,
unless you refer money market mutual fund account as bank account and some of them allow you to write checks like t row price,fidelity ect.
any time you open a bank account ,you leave traces of who you are,unless you have multiple ids with photos,with multiple ss numbers and multiple personality and lead a double life.then soon you will be on the FBI wanted list.
posted on October 21, 2001 06:13:04 AM new
This post has been edited voluntarily to try and offend fewer people who didn't do their research.
I'm sorry, but that's about the most painful story I've ever heard. No one with half a brain promises to "generate traffic" out of thin air, because it can't be done. Your first mistake was buying into his scam in the first place.
Your second mistake was reselling a product you didn't fully understand.
Then you did it again, with another seller, with similar (lack of) results.
I agree Paypal's probably not the most responsive or "fair" company in the world, but what financial institution is?
Lawrence.
PS: There are only two ways to generate traffic: hard work and time.
[ edited by nfgman on Oct 21, 2001 08:03 AM ]
posted on October 21, 2001 07:34:13 AM new
there is a website which discusses search engines and how they work and how you can make better use of them.
the major search engines such as alta vista,yahoo,lycos etc are responsible for 95 % of the traffic.
some say it is more like 98 %.
there is no sure way to guarantee sales or revenue will follow traffic.
with the cost of doing business rising in cyberspace,one can only hope there will be less websites to compete with.
the most trafficked sites are still ebay,yahoo and amzn.
posted on October 21, 2001 07:58:57 AM new
My last post violated some guidelines, so I won't address the individual in question directly. I'll also try and refrain from heaping abuse, deserved as I may or may not think it is, upon anyone.
If you're going to operate any sort of business, you have to do your research. I have a non-profit website which, if searched from any major search engine by the topics I cover, is consistantly ranked in the top three, rarely out of the top 5. Yet I only get 200k hits per month.
If you think anyone can deliver traffic regardless of your content or quality, you're a loon. Oops, let me rephrase: anyone who promises this is a scam artist. Since said scam artist isn't on this board, I think I'm ok.
It seems to me that the person I'm not abusing is blaming paypal for something completely out of their control. For sure, they might have more friendly policies for such occurrences, but they're clearly not the problem here.
I'm personally of the opinion that it's foolish to sell services you can't control, or to invest any money in things you don't understand. Paypal acted exactly as they said they would, so I'll continue to use their services with a clean concience.
Bottom line, I think: read the rules, research everything, research some more, read everything. Expect these things to happen and be ready for it. The days of fast internet moneymaking are over.
