posted on November 17, 2001 09:38:02 PM new
I'm in the middle of a developing situation and as I'm feeling a bit lost, I'm looking for advice and input from anyone who's been in this kind of trouble before. I've been both a buyer and a seller on eBay for a couple of years, and a user of PayPal as well, and haven't had a lick of trouble up to now (I know, I'm overdue for some.) I'm in contact with about a dozen other people in the same boat as me with this seller. Everybody paid via PayPal - the seller really pushed the idea.
It was an expensive item, bought from somebody who seemed to have plenty of good feedback. Shortly after he gets the money, his eBay account gets suspended (shill bidding, apparently). This prompted everybody he sold to recently to get anxious, and to ask for immediate shipment or refunds. Judging by the communication from this guy, he doesn't handle pressure well. He stopped responding to email. It's now been about a month that he's had our money. His correct address was not on file at eBay.
Here are my questions:
Is this unquestionably fraud? When do you make that judgement?
I started a PayPal complaint at the first hint of trouble (many of his buyers did the same), a couple weeks ago. I've heard nothing back. When does PayPal tell me what's going on?
Is there something effective that the dozen or so of us can do together, more so than individual action?
Does anyone recommend challenging the credit card charge immediately, or waiting for the PayPal investigation to finish? What does PayPal do when I challenge through Visa?
posted on November 18, 2001 04:00:38 AM new
i believe paypal takes 30 days to get back to you.
if you think he is suspended due to shill bidding,then one may hope that he does have the merchandise he has sold and will ship.
or if this is a new item,he will use your payment to purchase them and ship to you and the other buyers.
if you dispute the item with your cc company,it will pass on to paypal and paypal will take the hit,so to speak.
if paypal is quick,it should have locked up his account and freeze his fund await further investigation.
FTC said mail orders should be filled within 30 days after payment.
why is his address with ebay incorrect>has he moved? moved out of state??
posted on November 18, 2001 08:05:04 AM new
While his feedback was good, a number of people had complained about slow shipping. I surmised (only a guess) that he wasn't purchasing stock until he had the payment. If his PayPal account got frozen, it would explain why he can't send merchandise or refund money.
Of course, he isn't communicating what's going on, so it's hard to know whether he's a criminal or just dumb.
posted on November 18, 2001 08:27:54 AM new
if he is always slow to ship,then it is likely he does not have the merchandise on hand.
this poor guy is in a no win situation-while he needs your money to order goods and you folks complain to paypal and have his account locked and money frozen,it becomes a self fullfilling prophecy,you buyers now truly have a deadbeat seller on your hands.
sell what you do not have -there is always a risk involved.
posted on November 18, 2001 08:33:52 AM new
selling electronic goods used to be a very good business on ebay-pc,laptop,scanner and digital cameras.
i bot my scanner from an ebay seller who uses drop shipment when a scanner goes for 250 dollars.
these days there are brick and mortar retailers who sell on ebay,yahoo warehouse etc and they are not too difficult to spot.they have high feedback,their prices and shipping could be higher than joe doe who sells from his living room,but there is no nasty surprise and sales are handled professionally and they do have the merchandise in their shop,if not they can order fast.
the name of their store is often displayed along with toll free number.
do yourself a favor and buy from them,may be you have to pay more,but you get MIB merchandise with warranty and sleep better at nite.
posted on November 18, 2001 04:22:47 PM new
It occurred to me at the time that he might need his PayPal funds to purchase the merchandise...
But PayPal encourages an early initiation of a complaint. If I waited, knowing that others would file complaints, I would be at the back of the line for reimbursement.
It's a no-winner! I hope PayPal can distribute most of the money back to us.
Regarding your earlier question about his address, he purposely obfuscated it. Just a city, no address. (The wrong city.)
I did the user info request after he lost his eBay account, and it looked like a red flag. Hence the PayPal complaint.
posted on November 18, 2001 04:42:55 PM new
i just watched somone who is an ebay member to register as a seller.
i did not realise that someone who is registered with ebay for years as buyer,if she wants to sell,she has to register??
ebay wants to verify both her cc and her bank account ??
both have to be verified before she can sell.
so coming back to your seller,even tho he is no longer selling,his info on ebay should still be good enough to find him,bank has more info than the obituary or funeral director
posted on November 18, 2001 05:49:29 PM new
I was just reading the last reply, and yes it's true sometimes the bank does have more information, I just wanted to say that I work for a bank and if the customer moves and doesn't fill out a form to change the address the old one would remain as the current address. So it could be that the seller moved and that is why the address is wrong but even if Paypal went back through the bank they still might not have the correct address. Of course, if the seller does have the correct address through the bank, unless there is some kind of problem concerning the bank, they probably won't get involved or give the correct address. I did get burned once when I bought something through Ebay and when I sent the money the seller didn't ship my item. I filed numerous complaints through Ebay, the internet fraud, and the USPS at no evail. I never even got a responce from anyone. I wish I could be of further help but maybe Paypal can compensate for your loss.
Please wait 30 days for response to your complaint. In addition, our terms of use do require that users file a Buyer Complaint before filing a chargeback for an item.
If we are unable to recover on your behalf, the only recommendations I can make would include:
a) filing a complaint with local authorities where the seller is
b) filing a complaint with applicable fraud agencies
c) apply for insurance (if applicable) at the web site where you purchased the item(s) from
posted on November 20, 2001 04:05:39 PM new
Thanks for the response paypaldamon,
I hope I can reason with the guy in the meantime, he seems more like an accidental criminal to me. Of course since he doesn't answer my email lately, I've got to treat him like one. The last email I got from him, he seemed anxious and depressed (not entirely coherent, either.)
Does PayPal ever try to work with people like this, or do they just wait to see whether the seller answers the form letter? Just curious.
Has anyone here ever pursued small claims court against someone in another state? Just wondered how that would work. Could be fun, if I could add my plane fare and hotel to the judgement. Or would collecting the judgement be another nightmare?
posted on November 20, 2001 05:29:30 PM new
do you know if his paypal account is frozen and fund restricted?
if so,then how much does he have in the account,is there enough to pay all his buyers?you may not get 100 % but say 75% ,it is still better than going to court.
also ebay will pay upto 200 dollars less the deductible.
posted on November 21, 2001 05:17:59 PM new
I'm in exactly the same situation with the same seller. Paid the man and he didn't deliver. PayPal has been absolutely NO help. This is the second time this has happened to me with PayPal. I get more protection and help from VISA, MasterCard, etc. than from PayPal and have decided that if I can't use my VISA directly, I will not buy. PayPal give a lot of hipe regarding protection, but where is it?
posted on November 21, 2001 05:24:21 PM new
Hi rtt3821,
Our Buyer Complaint Process does not guarantee recovery from a seller. It also takes at least 30 days for the investigation.
The issue was not caused by PayPal but by a seller. PayPal is a payment service, and we can't verify the validity of items listed for sale at another web site. We also can't guarantee that items will be delivered for the same reason.
I would urge users to use some discretion when sending payment through any medium (check,money order,online payments,etc).
posted on November 23, 2001 08:21:55 AM new
I guess I'm glad that PayPal offers SOME small protection, even if it isn't what we might hope for.
I think what some take issue with is that PayPal has at times implied that their service offers more protection than in fact it does.
I'm not dumb, I know that PayPal isn't the one who took my money. However, if the service had more to offer in the security area, it would be worth more to me, and I wonder if the PayPal folks are looking at any new ideas in this area? I might have paid an "insurance" fee on a large transaction like this, for example, if that were an option. Another idea: though PayPal points out that they're not an escrow service, having an optional escrow service hosted at PayPal would be very convenient, and worth paying for.
At the present, the 30-day wait to find out what's going on is tough to sit through - I want to jump out of my chair and do something else. Why can't there be some information at least, like whether the account has been frozen, and how much is in it? Or whether the seller has responded to PayPal?
posted on November 23, 2001 10:51:39 PM new
To Paypaldamon,
Since the claim is base on "first-come, first-serve" basis, I would like to know if Paypal refund to other buyer who filed the complaint later but no for the one who filed earlier?
posted on December 4, 2001 07:09:35 AM new
I am another in the same boat. I sent money to the same seller without receiving the item. I have filed complaints with Paypal and Ebay and am waiting for their replies. I hope they can help.
I think we should stop using Paypal as their "Buyer Protection" is really poor. I will continue to take actions (including legal action) and once I got what I want (refund), I will close my account immediately.
posted on December 4, 2001 04:18:31 PM new
Well folks,
For whatever it's worth, PayPal finished their 30-day investigation and awarded me about 80% of what this seller took from me. It's better than I expected, so I don't feel like complaining. I'll try to make up the balance with eBay's insurance, if they'll let me do that. I was told via phone (have you ever tried to get through to PayPal by phone? Sheesh!) that my name was in "the top third of a very long list." This doesn't bode well for the other buyers coming after me.
It's a terrible feeling, losing money to a thief. I want it to be anybody's fault but mine. The limited protection that PayPal offers isn't too bad, if compared to a money order or a check. So I suppose that I complain because I like the service, and I want it to be more than it is. Believe it or not, I'm trying to help!
Certainly, and I hope PayPal can take criticism constructively, they could use some customer service lessons. Customer service always starts with communication. Just try locating PayPal's real address and phone number on the website sometime. Or an email address to write to.
posted on December 7, 2001 09:26:44 PM new
Remember, while PayPal would like you to think that if the buyer complaint doesn't work there isn't much you can do (like all you can do is contact authorities, file an insurance claim, etc.) you can file a dispute with your credit card company. Just because you signed up for PayPal doesn't mean you waive the rights provided to you by law regarding disputes for a credit card, which is why if on the 59th day after you paid the seller you don't get your money back with a buyer complaint, you should file a dispute. However, make sure you have no money in your PayPal account when you do this, since PayPal gets angry when people file disputes with credit card companies and they sometimes restrict accounts whose users do so. <br />
[ edited by andrew123s on Dec 7, 2001 09:27 PM ]
[ edited by andrew123s on Dec 7, 2001 09:30 PM ]
posted on December 8, 2001 04:06:17 PM new
Yes, I am considering filing a dispute with Visa. I was hoping to avoid this, and get some eBay insurance instead, but the eBay insurance is contingent on being turned down by Visa first.
It's a shame if this will mess with my PayPal account, as I am getting much use out of it as a seller. However, the amount of money I'm still out is probably going to make this step necessary. I'll wait till the last minute, as I'm still trying to find the seller. If my account is restricted, I'll just have to find an alternative.
I understand PayPal's point of view, as they would not like to be held accountable for the actions of third parties. However, as the law gives me this right, any payment service like PayPal has to account for it in their business model.
posted on December 8, 2001 06:12:03 PM new
you would not be able to collect much from ebay,i think it is under 200,could be 150 and there is a deductible,check out the ebay site
posted on December 8, 2001 06:53:44 PM new
Make sure before you dispute, you have ALL the money out of your paypal acct, and make sure it is actually in your bank account. And I think what you meant was file a dispute with your credit card company, not Visa (because you must dispute it with your credit card company). There are plenty of alternatives to PayPal (my favorite is C2it -- which is free, and gives the buyer 10 dollars for signing up and sending their first payment to someone).
posted on December 8, 2001 07:02:35 PM new
Also, as protection against other people paying into your paypal account should it become restricted, I'd recommend adding another e-mail address no one knows to that account, making it primary, and deleting your current e-mail address. (This way no one can pay into that account unless they use the new e-mail address you would register.)
And if your worried that PayPal could be ethically right by not wanting to be responsible for 3rd party actions, please take a look at this thread if you haven't already:
http://wsacp.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=10&thread=1257
I think they have taken enough money from innocent users that they can afford a chargeback.
