posted on August 29, 2000 11:36:03 AM new
My sister bid on an item recently that was an auction for four necklaces. The ad described each one and said: "Shipping $6. One of the necklaces is heavier than all the rest combined."
I told my sister that I thougth the shipping was high, but she bid anyway making the assumption (bad idea, I know) that since the seller qualified the shipping charges by noting that one piece was heavy in weight that that would justify the shipping charge.
She received the items today in a manila envelope with $1.60 First Class postage on the envelope. She's kind of pissed.
I told her I wasn't sure what to say about it. While the cost was in the listing, it was very high for First Class and IMO, the qualifier about the weight was false.
The seller has just under 75 feedback with 0 negatives and 0 neutrals. I looked at their completed auctions and the shipping charges are different for each auction. The word handling does not appear anywhere in their auction.
I don't know what to say to her. I told her I'd post here to get some opinions.
posted on August 29, 2000 11:48:34 AM new
I know that I would appreciate knowing that this seller overcharged on shipping.
I think I would post a neutral and say something to the effect of "Nice item, as described. Seller overcharged on actual shipping cost."
That way other buyers would be alerted to the fact that shipping charges were inflated by this seller.
Edited to say that sellers have a right to charge what they want, but buyers also have a right to know what they are paying for. You paid for shipping and were also charged for handling.
posted on August 29, 2000 11:49:04 AM new
The generally accepted rule is this: if you aren't sure what it means - ask! . . . and hopefully before you place your bid!
Now you, and then your sister, will have learned this lesson and next time, do as sugested.
Please remember this also: Sellers are not mind readers, nor are they so experienced that every auction description comes across 100%.
SO! My opinion is that you check to see if the Seller lived up to what they stated. Check the auction, the above part where eBay lists the bidding info. Does it state Buyer Pays Exact Postage? Was there really a necklace much heavier than the rest? Was the rest of the auction transaction smooth?
My last thought is that it is most kind of you to critique the auction in a nice way and send it back to the Seller as a personal feedback instead of something everyone can see and make different thoughts.
posted on August 29, 2000 11:49:14 AM new
I would *nicely* ask for a partial shipping refund. If refused, I would give them a negative. It's time people started speaking about about the shipping gougers on ebay. It's gotten waaay out of hand.
posted on August 29, 2000 11:55:34 AM new
KatyD: Amen!!
However, I still thing sellers can charge what they want, as long as they are up front about it.
And yes, buyers need to ask questions, but from the sound of the listing it was reasonable to assume that the seller had accounted for the extra heavier piece in the shipping cost. It would make buying a sorry process if one had to question every seller on every detail before placing a bid.
posted on August 29, 2000 11:59:04 AM new
"Shipping $6" is rather non-specific, so if there were only certain methods of delivery that would have been acceptable to your sister, she should have asked before bidding.
It sure looks like $6 was a lot to ask for shipping, but it was there in black and white- if that was more than she wanted to spend on shipping, she should have passed on the auction.
If the items arrived as described, I'd say the seller did everthing they said they would, and she should post positive feedback. I don't think it is fair to demand a seller to meet the buyer's unstated expectations.
Here's a question for you: If the items had arrived in a priority mail box with $6 postage on it, including insurance and delivery confirmation, and the items were in the same condition as the ones actually received, would she still be unhappy? Why?
Is the point of an auction purchase to:
A) Obtain a desired item at a price determined by the buyer?
or
B) Obtain a desired item with the least amount of postage on the envelope?
And another question:
Why is the focus so often on the package the item comes in rather than the item itself?
posted on August 29, 2000 12:02:21 PM new
I don't think there's anything wrong with letting the seller know your sister was disappointed and would like a refund of the over-charge on shipping. I would not mention feedback in the request. I've found that once I bring feedback (or any other retaliation) up, it gives the erring seller something to think about and react against. But if I stay uncommitted (and uncommented, lol) they have to use their imaginations to decide what I might do, and they usually anticipate far worse havoc than sweet lil' ol' me would ever wreak. No, really!
But even if they say no, I don't think I would leave a negative or even a neutral, unless the seller was particuarly nasty in her reply. The cost of the shipping was stated in the auction; it was incumbent on the bidder to challenge that before she bid or at least before the end of auction. I usually can spot shipping over-charges in the items I bid on and adjust my bid downward accordingly.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:02:47 PM new
kerryann:
This was an issue that need to be addressed before the bid. Or at the very least before payment was sent. Auction stated $6.00 for shipping, you paid $6.00. A letter to the seller stating why you are unhappy is ok.
When you see shipping charges you think are high do not bid.
Case in point, saw a Zippo lighter I wanted for my collection. Emailed the seller about the $5,00 charge. He agreed to use US mail instead of UPS, and if I won the auction, and used a credit card to pay, he would charge me the real cost. Won the auction and paid .78 plus a buck for the box.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:02:59 PM new
Precisely, AnnieJean. "Ask Questions" has become a chatch all for too many sellers to gouge their buyers, especially when any "reasonable" person can estimate that a 1oz. envelope isn't gonna cost $6.50 to mail.
Actually, I think Ebay should have a required field in the item listing where shipping charges must be filled in. If someone doesn't know them exactly, then "Actual" could be put there, and then another field for "handling" and another for "insurance". These should be required for seller. And don't tell me to "ask questions". When I'm looking to buy, I generally cruise the "ending today" items, and there simply isn't time to "ask questions".
posted on August 29, 2000 12:07:55 PM newKatyD For the most part, I agree with you -- I think eBay should have a way to let bidders know how much shipping will be on EACH auction by including the fields you've suggested. I also buy frequently by browsing the "ending today" categories, so there often isn't time to ask.
But...there is always the option not to bid. It's an option I would like to exercise more! LOL.
[ edited by wordgirl on Aug 29, 2000 12:08 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2000 12:15:12 PM new
My feedback would be very specific:
"Charged $6 for shipping, threw item in envelope with $1.60 postage. Caveat emptor."
There was no mention of handling and the packing was amateur or worse.
You will notice that I did not specify positive, neutral or negative. It doesn't matter, the facts speak for themselves.
The purpose of feedback is to alert other buyers, not to placate other sellers (myself included). What comment will help guide other buyers through this seller's imprecise copy?
Larry
[ edited by litlux on Aug 30, 2000 07:54 PM ]
posted on August 29, 2000 12:15:15 PM newBut...there is always the option not to bid.
That's the ticket- accepting responsibility for your choices.
I guess I'll never understand why somebody who spends $25 on an item ($20 bid + $5 non-defined shipping) is happy upon receipt of a package with $5 postage on it, but is pissed if the postage on the package is only $1.50- isn't it the same $25 total either way?
posted on August 29, 2000 12:15:59 PM new
Totally personal experience...
When I see a quoted charge which appears somewhat high, I write the seller and ask for a break-down of the quoted charge. If I am quoted XXXX for Priority Mail + whatever, and I agree with the price, fine...But item better be sent PRIORITY MAIL, with the extras I paid for.
If I saw 6.00 quoted and bid or my sister did, then I could only blame myself or my sister, and would have learnt to dissect the shipping cost, before getting involved....
It is NOT right of a seller to charge so much, though! That is greed!....
posted on August 29, 2000 12:26:04 PM new
Dear KatyD.
Would it surprize you to learn that what you suggest about Listing requirements is exactly what we Sellers have been asking eBay for, for a long time?
Would it surprize you to learn that eBay has always turned a Deaf Ear to our needs and requests? (except on a very few occasions)
Would it surprize you that we Sellers here on AW at least, have asked BUYERS to write to eBay demanding this listing feature, simply because eBay only listens to people who Buy? (when they listen to any of us whatsoever)
Last Spring, we went round-and-round on this issue of putting Shipping Facts in the Listing area; such as, Shipping Method;, i.e., USPS, UPS, FedEX, etc.; Actual Cost versus Shipping & Handling or None.
Things like that.
We Sellers have been making a ruckus to eBay for a long time trying to inprove the situation between Buyers and Sellers. But, you just can't stop some idiot from listing his old, used underwear on eBay; nor can you require that all new Sellers have to take a required college course on the Do's and Don'ts of Good Merchanting, swear a legally binding Oath to abide by everything that they have learned, and take a Competantcy test before placing their first listing. No, the only reasonable thing that can be done is for eBay to MAKE SOME SMALL, EASY CHANGES to the Listing process.
Don't think that many of us Sellers haven't tried to make positive changes for the best for all of us!
posted on August 29, 2000 12:35:32 PM new
Why would you leave a negative? Did the seller charge you more than what was agreed upon in the TOS? If you were unhappy with the stated charge, you shouldn't have bid.
In my opinion, I'd leave a neutral as suggested earlier :"Items as described, shipping costs overstated."
posted on August 29, 2000 12:48:36 PM new
I don't agree with leaving a neg.
First, before leaving any neutral or neg, contact the seller and try to work something out.
The shipping price was there in b&w, you paid and you received the item presumably in good condition. Don't neg.
Granted the price was high. But, if you're unsure about the method....ask.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:50:52 PM new
I'd leave a negative, (assuming the seller refuses to refund the overcharged shipping) because the seller "gouged" the buyer, and because "handling" was not stated in the TOS, which is the only "reason" that could "explain" the gross overcharge in shipping. In my book, that's a negative "buying experience" and so it would go on the sellers feedback. Perhaps, the next time the seller will think twice before he/she gouges a buyer through grossly inflated shipping charges.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:51:06 PM new
Thank you, KatyD, for that reply. You bring up another important issue related to this thread.
When you are a Buyer, and if you deadbeat a lot and get lots of negatives - no problem! You just delete the old account and start up a new identity and go about deadbeating more people until you have to change again.
My point there is it is easy for a Buyer with poor feedback rating to change to a new account and start fresh over.
Now for a Seller, all feedback is practically written in stone. Sellers do not have the luxury of changing their account and name and starting over again. It takes a lot of time and effort to build up a good reputation and it is wrong IMO to trivialize it by advocating slamming the Seller's reputation for such a slight grievence.
My point here is that a Seller's business lives and dies by their Feedback as contrasted to a Buyer's Feedback that is practically valueless.
Truthfully, if Buyers start doing what you advocate, then we Sellers can easily retaliate.
Laughing?
Concider just how much leeway that Sellers give Buyers. Concider that if that leeway was gone. What if there was one tiny mistake on your part as a Buyer and you got slammed with a Negative from every Seller that you dealt with? No one could be late with payment for any reason within getting a negative slammed on them! When a Seller asks you to respond in an e-mail and you don't - SLAM!!! When you send in your payment without adequate name and shipping info - NEGATIVE!! And a thousand other reasons. We Seller could easily become like you advocate for Buyers and then everyone would get really unhappy real quickly!
The true solution is for Buyers to behave like Sellers do, in that you should take everythng with a grain of salt and roll with the punches. Sure, if you've been trated badly - give them a negative! But not for such hairline circumstances.
So if everyone would band together and demand these changes from eBay, that will solve these sorts of complaints once and for all. Negatives will accomplish nothing but putting honest merchants out of business.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:57:06 PM new
I don't see the "gouging" there...buyer agreed to pay $6 shipping. Buyer was not forced to bid on this auction, buyer could have bid on an auction with a lower shipping charge. Now, I can see the issue about it not being called a "handling" charge, but in the end, buyer "agreed" to pay the charge. The seller delivered the goods described in the auction. I still think a neutral is in order, not a negative.
posted on August 29, 2000 12:57:27 PM new
As a seller, I list all shipping charges upfront in a chart on my auctions. There is never any question how much shipping will be, and I never charge a handling fee.
If I saw an auction that said "Shipping $6" for a few necklaces, you have to *know* that if a necklace is going to cost $6 to ship it's probably too heavy to wear around your neck! If I had questions how much "handling" this person was getting I would have asked before bidding. If I didn't, I would have no right to complain.
Perhaps this seller should have been more clear about the shipping/handling charges, but you also had to ask questions BEFORE you bid or it's no one's fault but your own. It states in ebay's policy to "KNOW" what you are bidding on BEFORE you bid. Because once you bid you are agreeing to the seller's terms, which in this case, was to pay $6 for shipping on a few necklaces.
____________________________________
The only place you'll find success before work is in the dictionary.
posted on August 29, 2000 01:03:00 PM newI'd leave a negative... In my book, that's a negative "buying experience" and so it would go on the sellers feedback.
Of course, once such a buyer accumulates a collection of negatives on their own record saying "Shipping cost plainly stated in listing, buyer demands refund at end of auction", they may find some of their bids rejected by sellers.
posted on August 29, 2000 01:03:06 PM newSellers do not have the luxury of changing their account and name and starting over again.
Sure they do, and they do it all the time.
Truthfully, if Buyers start doing what you advocate, then we Sellers can easily retaliate.
Oh, and sellers DO retaliate. Why do so many sellers wait until the buyer leaves feedback before THEY do? About 98% of the sellers I buy from these days, will not leave feedback unless I do first, this after I have abided by all their terms of sale, both in communication and in speedy payment. They are simply waiting to "retaliate" for any negative comment I might make. I do not leave any feedback for these sellers anymore, regardless of whether I am happy with the item or not. If I have fulfilled THEIR terms, and they are "waiting" for feeback from me before posting theirs, forget em!
The true solution is for Buyers to behave like Sellers doEgad! Surely you jest!
Negatives will accomplish nothing but putting honest merchants out of business.Baloney! If they're honest, they certainly don't need to worry about getting negatives, do they? Mmmm?
For what it's worth, Borillar, I am both a seller and a buyer. I have to say that the vast majority of my sales are much nicer than my purchases. What does that tell you? Of course it could be that as a seller, I adhere to the same expectations I have as a buyer.
posted on August 29, 2000 01:07:37 PM new
A buyer has one short term goal...to buy an item at auction. A seller (usually) has the longer term goal of building a business and reputation. To say that sellers change id's all the time is a reach. I have quite a few regular customers, and I'm not about to switch ID's over a negative, even if it's over a clearly listed shipping fee.
posted on August 29, 2000 01:07:39 PM new
yankeejoe, okay, if you don't want to call it "gouging" let's call it "fee avoidance", eh? Padding shipping to get a "more satisfactory" price. Whatever one calls it, I call it an "unscrupulous" seller.
posted on August 29, 2000 01:11:47 PM new
No, Borillar. It tells me that I don't have to put up with the crappy service and goods of those Ebay sellers who regularly use ebay auctions to cheat and gouge buyers. And when I run across one that does, I use the feedback function to let others know about it. That's what it's for, right?
