timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:03:05 PM new
This question is for long time eBayers who have been members since jan 1999. I recieved this question recently and was wondering if anyone else remembers a time before eBay last re-defined "shill bidding" in jan 1999 when it used to in fact be legal to place ONE bid on your own auction if and only if you DID NOT place a RESERVE price on your auction. This bid would in fact act as your reserve and you would still of course be accountable for commission fees. Can you help me out so I can answer this man? Obviously eBay has trashed all their old user agreements to "hide their sin" so to speak but I vaguely seem to also remember this as being a rule. Anyone wanna chime in on this one? I could be wrong but I would like to know if anyone else remember's this. Obviously if you weren't a member prior to jan 1999 you wouldn't have a clue so don't chime in if you are a newbie since then.
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alchemy
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:15:15 PM new
Hi,
To the best of my knowledge it is still allowed. (And was for 2-3 years) BUT, only if you bid as your seller ID. You could never shill with a seperate ID. (though that was done - but, against the rules)
I think the system will still allow ONE bid from the seller. That of course is not shilling since it the bid is recorded as the seller's ID.
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timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:17:19 PM new
Alchemy: Ok, I'm glad that someone else remembers this. Do you have a link to eBay that still verifies this is legal?
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newguy
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:22:52 PM new
The system will not allow you to bid with the seller ID. Try it.
And you can not ever bid on your own auction with with any other ID that is yours. They changed that a long time ago.
Miscreant  -and proud of it!
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heartsong
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:26:36 PM new
I remember when eBay had the rule of you could bid one time on your own auction.
I also remember when eBay looked the other way when shill bidding violations were reported.
They have clearly done an aboutface on this policy.
The applicable rule now reads:
An eBay seller is never allowed, under any circumstances, to place a bid on their own item. To avoid even the appearance of this activity, family members and individuals living together, working together or sharing a computer, may not bid on each other's items.
For the full explanation go to:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/shillBidding.html
http://www.auctionusers.org
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reston_ray
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:28:08 PM new
I do not believe it is allowed under any circumstances at this time.
I do recall that at one time the manner you could close an auction that already had a bid was to place a higher bid with your seller ID. After being listed as both seller and high bid you then were expected to immediately close the auction and request FVF refund.
This is the manner you could withdraw an item from sale. Now replaced with cancelling all bids and then closing the auction.
Best as I can remember.
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:45:24 PM new
It isn't allowed now, but was once. If a seller was not satisfied with the progress of bidding on an item he or she could place one bid on the item. Sort of setting a reserve at any time during the auction.
I thought it was a good system as it left bidding open between bidders without having to bid against an unknown reserve price, yet still allowed the seller a choice of whether or not to sell at the bid reached.
They said that it was disallowed due to buyer complaints, as I remember, but more likely it was stopped because it lowered the successful sale rate that they USED to publish on the home page and thus both lowered their revenue and created bad PR.
Wasn't it not long before they went public that they stopped that feature?
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timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:49:16 PM new
KRS: I am pretty sure this rule was changed in jan 1999. I was only a member shortly before that and I vaguely recall this rule existing but wanted to check with other long time members. Does anyone else have anymore info about this to share? Maybe personal experiences or links to pages that could help me here?
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:53:14 PM new
I think that it was months brfore that, Ben. The reason I am pretty sure of it is that they banned the sale of firearms in Feb. 1999, and that ability was not available for some time before that. Maybe nearly a year before that.
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timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:55:15 PM new
KRS: I know it was before 1999 jan but after 1998 may at least because thats when I joined. Anyone else have any clue when this rule officially went into affect?
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reddeer
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posted on August 30, 2000 10:56:18 PM new
That feature was pulled in 98, I can't remember exactly when though?
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:01:03 PM new
Bud knows.
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packer
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:07:39 PM new
I remember it was before the LIVE eBay support board went down. As I use to read that alot. The advise was always to place your own bid if you didn't want it to sell so cheap.
I think they removed that option at or about the same time that they instituted the "its only a dollar" for reserve.
eBay wanted you to PAY for not letting your item go for dirt cheap.
So hand in hand.....no more bidding on your own auctions to protect your investment...Pay us "its only a dollar" to protect it for you.
BAH...HUM...BUG!!!
Having a BAD HAIR moment!! 
edited because my sig line won't work 
[ edited by packer on Aug 30, 2000 11:10 PM ]
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heartsong
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:09:16 PM new
I just took a quick look through my archives. I lost most of my page copies, word docs and graphics when I had a hard drive failure, but I've still got most of my e-mails.
I have an e-mail from eBay upper management dated Tuesday Sept. 8, 1998. Here is part of the text:
"There's also one rule clarification you should be aware of: a seller is permitted to bid on their own item one time, if they don't use a reserve price. A single bid means that they run the risk of actually becoming the
high bidder, which means they lose the opportunity to sell to another bidder. The spirit of the rule is to permit a seller to reclaim the right to purchase the item himself, not to manipulate the bidding."
I believe this rule stayed in effect for at least a few more months after this letter was recieved. I'm leaning towards it being changed during one of the major system upgrades in early '99.
http://www.auctionusers.org
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timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:15:45 PM new
heartsong: Could you forward that ebay email to "[email protected]". I would love to read it. Thanks.
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:20:20 PM new
timeforebaytodie,
Is interest a result of an as-yet undisclosed ebay charge against you in addition to the 'email fraud' and 'auction non=performance' that you have disclosed?
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Frogleg
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:24:20 PM new
krs
hehe
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Glenda
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:39:18 PM new
Packer: FYI, the reserve fee was put in place almost exactly a year ago http://www.auctionwatch.com/awdaily/dailynews/august99/1-082399.html
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:40:12 PM new
Pretty quiet out there. Oh, I see what's wrong, I fractured the grammar. I meant:
"Is this interest a result of an as-yet undisclosed ebay charge against you in addition to the 'email fraud' and 'auction non-performance' that you have disclosed?"
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heartsong
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:41:06 PM new
time?
I wish I could (forward the letter) ... but I can't.
It's kind of an honor pact I made with myself  .
Best of luck in zeroing in on the timeframe. Hopefully the Sept date will help narrow it down some.
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Frogleg
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:45:42 PM new
krs
LMAO
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Frogleg
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:45:57 PM new
krs
LMAO
added....And my first double post.
[ edited by Frogleg on Aug 30, 2000 11:47 PM ]
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magazine_guy
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:48:24 PM new
It's kinda misleading to even call that abandoned procedure "shill bidding." Shill bidding, as the term is commonly used, means to deceptively bid on your own auction (either yourself or via proxy) in order to attempt to manipulate the bid price. Under the old provision, the seller had to openly bid on his own item- which eliminates the deception that's part and parcel of shill bidding. With full disclosure, and no deception, there's no fraud.
Different animal, really.
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krs
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:56:33 PM new
Right. It was above board and quite within the rules of the time.
What is "email fraud" anyway, as it pertains to ebay rules? Ebay has repeatedly stated their position of non-responsibility for what occurs in email.
For the matter, I don't think that I've heard of anyone removed for "auction non-performance" unless an insurance claim had been made with the ebay carrier.
Everybody has heard of shill bidding since that practice has never been allowed.
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packer
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posted on August 30, 2000 11:57:18 PM new
OK....does anyone remember when they took the LIVE support board down on eBay?
I've got my thinking cap on......but its late and I'm tired.
I know they took it down during a REALLY BIG controversy(there were several back then). Everyone moved over to the DNF board.
As I recall they were having BIG TIME stability problems and to reward all of us they instituted the "its only a dollar" fee.
Its late, I got to get up in 4 hours, I'm probably have an alzhemer moment.
All I know for sure is that when I went to the LIVE support board the advise to bid on your own item was given out ALOT!!!
Having a BAD HAIR moment!!
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Glenda
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posted on August 31, 2000 12:35:10 AM new
Packer: All I can tell you is that Live Support was taken offline before May 1999.
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magazine_guy
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posted on August 31, 2000 12:49:45 AM new
There's a thread in another forum, from January 1999, that mentions eBay permitting this, but frowning on it. I think it went away in the first half of '99.
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Springdream
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posted on August 31, 2000 04:36:07 AM new
Packer,
The live support boards were taken down on February 14th, 1999 (I can remeber thinking, oh boy, another Valentine's Day Massacre). Ebay had been down off and on most of that week and, by the 14th, the "community" had had all that they could take and really let the staff manning the boards know their feelings. It's too bad they closed the live support boards, as reading the posts was a great way to learn about eBay.
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timeforebaytodie
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posted on August 31, 2000 01:08:45 PM new
Thanks for the info folks. I have recieved another lie this time via email from eBay. ****** from Investigations has told me via email that it was never and I repeat never an ebay policy that as a bidder you could place one bid on your auction if you had not placed a reserve. This is another blatent lie from the ebay staff and if anyone has any more documented proof about this please post it here on the board or send it to my email: "[email protected]". Thank you.
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krs
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posted on August 31, 2000 01:43:31 PM new
I think that it's less a lie than it is inexperience. Ebay has a continual flow of people answering questions off the cuff who haven't been there long enough to remember and who don't seem to check their information. If you were able to ask the question of each rep in turn you'd get more answers than you get here.
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