posted on August 31, 2000 12:51:58 PM new
About every 5 to 6 weeks, AW goes through another cycle of newbies and then comes up the Shipping & Handing thing again.
Nothing gets accomplished -- just lots of talk.
However, if we all took that energy and directed it at the source, namely eBay, we might just fix the problem.
Out of all changes for the community good that eBay couild make on their system, none would be so easy as this idea: MANDANTORY DISCLOUSURE OF FEES.
I'm not talking about the Seller's TOS. I'm saying that eBay should create a new Section in the Listing screen where the Seller must disclose all facts or not be allowed to post the item for sale. Information like this:
* BUYER PAYS (multiple choice)
a) Buyer Pays Only For Exact Postage
b) Buyer Pays Only For Exact Postage AND Materials Used
c) Buyer Pays For Postage, Materials, and a Handling Fee.
Once a), b), or c) is selected, then the dollar amount MUST be typed in and disclosed, just like we do with the price now.
This is so simple an idea (not origionally mine) and would be so easy for eBay to implement and it would fix the entire problem of Selers who are "unscupulous" about it, that there is no reason for NOT to be there!
So, instead of making endless posts and arguements about being ripped-off on S&H fees, why don't you all use that energy to WRITE TO EBAY and put it to really good use.
(exorbitant S&H fees area, of course, a different matter)
posted on August 31, 2000 12:56:41 PM new
First of all, the point of these forums, in my mind at least, IS to provide "lots of talk".
Secondly, I like your concept. But, what dollar figure should I type in if I ship Internationally? If I type in $3.50 and someone in Bora Bora wins it, it's going to cost me megabucks to ship. If I type in $35.00 (to cover that guy in Bora Bora), a US bidder will call me a crook ...
posted on August 31, 2000 12:56:43 PM new
I am a little bit confused. Why are all these people complaining about S&H AFTER they won the auction.
See, you have a CHOICE of not BIDDING if you think S&H terms are not CLEAR or TOO HIGH. Are these people 7 years old and cannot read or what? This is completely getting out of hand here. Get a clue, READ first THEN bid. If you cannot handle that then maybe online auctions are not for you.
posted on August 31, 2000 12:57:22 PM new
Good idea!
Personally, I'm sick to death of hearing the "I've been gouged by shipping costs" threads because (1)sellers didn't include all the info in their auction (2)buyers didn't ask questions before they bid.
Everyone blames the "other" party. Take responsibility for your actions (ask questions BEFORE you bid, or DON'T BID! - or list EXACT shipping & HANDLING amounts in your auctions!) and let the complaining about this come to an end!
posted on August 31, 2000 12:59:26 PM new
While I like the clarification;there's just no simple way to state something as complex as shipping charges. What if the seller offers multiple options? What if the buyer or seller is foreign? What if the seller offers combination shipping or free shipping to repeat customers? And so on.
posted on August 31, 2000 01:07:53 PM new
OTOH, Borillar, I do agree that these discussions really don't accomplish much. Talking S&H charges is like talking politics or religion. We're all friends here, but we're not going to agree on some things no matter how much we talk about it.
I think the single, most important thing any of us can do is communicate. If we have a problem with a buyer, seller, TOS, or any of that ilk, we should talk to that person before committing or starting a flame war ...
posted on August 31, 2000 01:12:55 PM new
A neat idea, but I think you're opening a can of worms.
If sellers must disclose that level of detail for S&H, why stop there?
Why not require disclosing how much of the bid price is for the sellers time to enter the auction into ebay? To monitor it? To send winning emails and replay to customers? How about a fee if you have to send more than 1 email to get a response?
Ridiculous? Sure. But that's the road you're heading down.
Let me put it another way: When you buy something from a catalog company, do you demand to know how much of the S&H is for packaging, packing, labor, etc.? Or do you just look to see if it's reasonable?
When you go for lunch and buy a slice of pizza, do you demand the resturant tell you how much of the price is for flour, eggs, sauce, cheese, etc.? And then argue you're being gouged?
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/artsnflies/
[ edited by artsnflies on Aug 31, 2000 01:14 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 01:19:03 PM new
I can understand it would be difficult for sellers who have international sales to list shipping amounts before knowing where the high bidder lives. I do feel though, that there should be a place on the auction page where sellers would be required to list handling charges and the shipping method they use. I also think sellers, to protect themselves, should require insurance on all items over $5.00.
Most buyers don't object to reasonable handling costs, anyone realizes that it is time consuming and requires extra materials to pack fragile and breakable items. Buyers also know that mailing a non breakable item is cheaper.
onsale People should read TOS beforehand, but many people are new to the auction sites and don't even know what questions to ask. Someone bidding for the first few times sees "buyer pays shipping costs" and doesn't realize some sellers gouge.
Borillar Your idea is a good one, and I have emailed this suggestion to ebay. I also think maybe ebay should develop a tutorial that buyers should be required to watch before they can bid that would tell them the different ways that sellers try to scam buyers so they could watch out for them and at least know which questions to ask.
posted on August 31, 2000 01:21:07 PM new
Many catalog companies state up front that the charges are for S&H. I think the clarification Borillar is talking about is the "hidden" handling charges in shipping costs. I don't think this is a matter of breaking down the cost for each item in the total cost of shipping, but is a way to inform the buyer that when they receive their order, the postage charge may not match what they paid for shipping. If there is a handling charge, I think it should be stated up front, so why not integrate it into the auction headers?
posted on August 31, 2000 01:21:29 PM new
I think anything that can be done to make it easier for the Buyers should be utilized. While I normally abhor the "dumbing down" of anything, you have to remember that many people are not only new to eBay, but new to the internet as well. How many of us actually read all the eBay Tutorials that are provided? Or the User Agreement?
I think the checked box system would work, and one could also be added if you ship International to cover the additional postage charges or for "Fixed" shipping charges. Anything that can cut down on the confusion would be a plus. An unhappy Buyer may never come back.
posted on August 31, 2000 01:40:52 PM new
Does someone who gouges their customers on shipping have a gouge box that must be checked?
Actually, I am tired of trying to regulate common sense. Sellers should state their terms on their own steam. If they don't or I don't like them, I reserve my constitutional right to hit the back button. Responsible adults should be able to do this without supervision.
posted on August 31, 2000 01:41:58 PM new
In life, there are many "hidden fees" and no one would ever dream of making a stink over them.
When you go into a resturant and there's salt&pepper, sugar and paper napkins on the table someone has to pay for it. It may only be a few cents but that's factored into the price of the menu items. You wouldn't demand the resturant owner to tell you how much of you meal is for table salt. Even the plastic flower on the table costs and must be paid by someone.
I agree totally that sellers should state in their auctions their intended S&H charge. That will force sellers to be more accurate too.
My point is if you accept the idea that giving a detailed breakdown for S&H, including packing materials, packing time, taking it to the post office etc. that's just going to lead to more questioning and haggling over prices and costs.
If you think profit margins are slime now, just wait until your buyer starts wanting to know how much of the bid price is for the item, your overhead, pick up/delivery charges (for receiving items), etc.
posted on August 31, 2000 01:45:46 PM new
But njrazd ... there wouldn't be any confusion if you asked questions first! This is not rocket science ... really
posted on August 31, 2000 01:46:40 PM new
My main problem with this (other than more boxes to check) is that as a Canadian seller, the shipping on items over 1kg (approx. 2lbs) to the US can change depending on the destination state. If I quote $x.xx for shipping in the listing, and the buyer lives in one of the "closer" states, it's still going to look like I'm padding my shipping fee. Asking before you bid is still the best policy.
posted on August 31, 2000 02:10:43 PM new
Borillar, it'd be a great concept except for these few problems:
1)A seller using UPS doesn't know what shipping will cost until they know what state the buyer lives in.
2)Certain sellers determine s/h based on their profit on the item. For example, if the bid price goes higher to give me an ample profit, I absorb most of the s/h.
3)If a seller deems it important to list the s/h, then use that as a selling point and don't whine. A seller who views it as a distraction should have the right not to list it. RULES ARE FOR THE WEAK!
4)Sellers have options not to bid if there is no s/h listed. SEE #3
5) Ebay is only a venue, or so they say! There role is very limited to controlling what listings can say or not say.
6) If ebay creates another stupid rule, I will write them oten to complain, and will do less selling on ebay until the matter is resolved. Many other sellers will likely do the same.
posted on August 31, 2000 02:40:30 PM new
I like capitalism and the right to sell freely. That said, Borillar, I really respect the fact that you thought enough about this to bring an idea to the table.
I also see that there are many reasons that your thought might not work and the best avenue is knowlege.
I put my shipping in all of my ads or at least the weight and offer to find out based on the zip.
I have had some close calls, but due to the threads about shipping gouging I have learned to ask questions first.
I had one person tell me that a postcard was $4.00 to ship. I was thinking Priority, right? I remembered the gouging threads and so, I asked if that was for Priority. No, it was standard rate. I cleared out of that auction LIGHTENING FAST!
Another one didn't even say the shipping, so I asked before bidding. Shipping was $9.50! For something that could NOT have weighed over 2 Pounds! I could ship a LOT for $9.50!
All I can say is THANKS! to everyone for the gouging threads! It has saved me some big bucks!
Keep up the great work! And the new ideas are great!
posted on August 31, 2000 03:02:41 PM new
I state shipping price in all my auctions, and I always charge just for postage, no handling. I also state that price is for US only.
The thing is, I STILL have people write and ask me 'how much to ship?'
You can't win-people like that will always be out there bidding, while their brain takes a nap.
posted on August 31, 2000 05:31:21 PM new
THE FOLLOWING IS A COMMERCIAL MESSAGE!
Effective 09/01/2000
GRAND OPENING!
NEW BIDDING SITE!
SHIPBAY OPENS!!!!!!!
Buyers tired of being ripped off with shipping charges? Sellers tired for being ripped into for shipping charges?
Then folks welcome to SHIPBAY the new exciting site were the seller set the price for the item, and the bidders auction on the shipping charges! That's right no more
misunderstanding on shipping!
You know up front what you pay for the item!
You set the cost of sipping with your bid
All shipping charges, with insurance start @ $1.00, want the item more than the next
guy, bid up the shipping.
No more hidden charges, no more unhappy buyers, as they set the cost of shipping.
So what are you waiting for YAY YAY FOR SHIPBAY!!!!!!!
edhdsn
[ edited by edhdsn on Aug 31, 2000 05:42 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 05:49:23 PM new
Borilar - It isn't a Ridiculous Fuss it is a practical discussion when we have so many sellers actually gouging on handling. Take yourself for this matter. I took the time to breakdown your $6.95 Shipping and Handling Fee for your 2 ounce item. Take a look at what your unfair inflation of the charges amount to in sheer excess profit to you at this thread.
[link]http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=247608[/link]
Your excess profit margin is a whopping $1.80 and I figured in everything and allowed for an outrageous markup of the materials and your time. So the real solution is for ebay sellers to take the time to know what each aspect of their operation cost and compute fair handling and fees accordingly. Afterall if you are really in business your postage/packing supplies are deductible. Your gas and time are deductible and that excess profit is fully taxable with no way to expense none of it out of your income. Trust me the just because the TV advertised CD charges $6.95 shipping and handling that doesn't make the same $6.95 fair for your ebay operation.
Sorry for the multiple edits. I am trying to link to that other thread. I really want to see borilar explain all of that excess profit on his 2 ounce item.
[ edited by networker67 on Aug 31, 2000 05:58 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Aug 31, 2000 06:00 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Aug 31, 2000 06:02 PM ]
[ edited by networker67 on Aug 31, 2000 06:07 PM ]
posted on August 31, 2000 06:12:38 PM new
I believe that if shipping costs are clearly
disclosed in the ad there is ABSOLUTELY no
justification for anyone to complain. If you
think the shipping cost is too high, then
pass on the item. Why not fold shipping
costs into the opening bid price? Because
then eBay would get a cut.
posted on August 31, 2000 06:15:35 PM new
Unfortunately, full disclosure of fees won't work. If buyers can't complain about S+H, they'll find something else to complain about. I got an irate, "how dare you?" email from a customer this week.
From my TOS/item description:
"Winner pays $4 for first class postage, packaging, handling and insurance."
D'oh!
I buy lots of CDs and I never even blink when I see a $4 or $4.50 charge to ship an $8 disc. I know what the fees are going to be. I just figure it into the total cost.
posted on August 31, 2000 06:20:12 PM new
Ridiculous is the key word here. I sell on Amazon and my fees are listed in exact dollar amounts and I still get complaints AFTER the end of an auction. You don't get things for free in this world! Email the seller if you're not sure about S&H fees or want to negotiate a smaller fee BEFORE the end of an auction.
posted on August 31, 2000 07:19:54 PM new
Hello networker and everyone else who has been kind enough to resond to this and make a real discussion out of it.
In my other thread, I stated that Insured First Class for 2 ounces costs me $1.50 - without adding in Labor. In my business, we have been playing around all Summer long of offering FREE Shipping & Handling on every item. That $1.50 is figured into starting price.
What I mentioned was that I thought that $6.95, being charged everywhere else, was not an unreasonable amount to charge for S&H. I don't know about you, my cost on gasoline went up a lot this year, along with the price for a loaf of bread and anything else that you can think of. So I just don't see $6.95 being excessive.
Edited to add this image I just made:
It won't solve every problem, but it does eliminate other check boxes and can, of course, your choices can be saved as usual.
)
