DrTrooth
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:50:23 PM
The question: Is there specific language in the User Agreement of PayPal or Billpoint that prohibits a Vendor from passing the fees for using that service along to the Buyer?
I don't want to hear the rants, I just want someone to show me where it says that you cannnot.
Those people that say you cannot because it is against State Law could be wrong....as it is for the one accepting the card.....and we all know that Paypal or Billpoint are the merchants that actually receive the card # and process the payment and send it to the Vendor. The Vendor has the agreement with the Third Party provider...NOT with the CC Company.
It is an interesting point that deserves to be cleared up. the pronouncements from ebay seem to be unclear and best and likely full of crap.
Dr. Trooth
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Julesy
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posted on September 22, 2000 02:59:36 PM
http://pages.ebay.aol.com/help/community/png-list.html
At the bottom of the page, see the section on Credit Card Surcharges.
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DrTrooth
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:05:24 PM
Julesy - thank you for your time and attention.
From the linked area:'Credit Card Surcharges
An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments. This surcharge, which is an added cost to the buyer over and above the final sale price and shipping/handling, is not allowed under the laws of many states, including California. For more information, see:
[and there were the links to the Visa and MC TOS]
BUT.....You still do not get the point. The Vendor is not the client of Visa or MC. the Vendor is the client of the third party provider.
Still waiting.......
Dr. Trooth
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coonr
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:09:14 PM
I think you can. You are accepting Billpoint and PayPal, you are NOT accepting a credit card.
Billpoint and PayPal may or may not be accepting a credit card.....
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Julesy
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:25:38 PM
http://www.billpoint.com/help/sellerguide/policies.html#CHARGEFEE
That is Billpoint's policy. I have no idea if the same goes for Paypal.
I DO get your point, DrTrooth; I just don't do semantics very well.
Have a nice evening.
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sulyn1950
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:26:40 PM
Although if you email BillPoint (I have) you will be told no you cannot, I have been over the BillPoint user agreement many times and it says NOT ONE WORD about it.
http://www.billpoint.com/policies/user-agreement.html
(sorry, I don't know how to make them clickable here)
The only thing about charges mentioned in the TOU is:
USERS (their exact word) are required to pay all fees. I am sure they mean "sellers", but they DO NOT state that.
Eventually they will probably notice they do not say anything about NOT passing the fees along EVEN if they meant to, and will admend the agreement.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 22, 2000 04:00 PM ]
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twelvepole
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:42:40 PM
I had already asked ebay for an answer and here is their reply:
Hello,
Thank you for writing with your questions.
No, eBay does not permit any type of surcharge for credit card use
(which is basically how funds are collected by PayPal). This is illegal
in our home state of California and we do not permit it in our auctions.
If you would like to report these surcharge auctions, you may do so at:
http://cgi3.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ReportInfringing
Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Regards,
Tisha
eBay Community Watch Team
Ain't Life Grand... 
[ edited by twelvepole on Sep 22, 2000 04:01 PM ]
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networker67
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posted on September 22, 2000 03:53:20 PM
Dr.tooth - What part of ebay's stance on credit card fees are you finding so difficult to accept? Is it that hard for you to pay the fees to the providers of services that enhance your business? Or do just hate the idea that it cost money to be in business?
Look at it this way. Suppose your BUYERS who pay by money order decided to deduct the fee for the money order? Would you find this acceptable or would you flip your lid that they have the nerve to violate your TOS? So if you pass all your expenses back to your customer. You in effect make the operation 100% taxable on its profits with no expenses because all of the expenses have been recovered from the consumer. I know its a difficult concept to grasp but in business you have expenses that may or may not all be passed onto the consumer.
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DrTrooth
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posted on September 22, 2000 04:12:15 PM
Oh, good God!!!!!!!!!
Has it been 30 days already?
Well, if your past performances are any indication, it will not take too long to get you to flip out and garner another respite.
And to stay right on topic....my point is that one will do business with a third party....and that party does not fall under the laws of surcharges on credit cards. That is between the Third Party and the Credit card compamy that THEY have the agreement with.
Now....I have seen the TOS of Billpoint....and they do prohibit passing on the fees....but if I read it correctly their reasoning is flawed...as [yet again] the agreement is tween the third party and the CC company, not with the User.
Somehow I knew that this would get complicated quickly.
Dr. Trooth
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sulyn1950
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posted on September 22, 2000 04:19:14 PM
Is Passing Along Paypal/Billpoint Fees in the TOS?
I thought Dr. Trooth was asking a specific question. Not necessarily whether it should or should not be passed on.
If you read the TOS with BillPoint, it DOES not say one way or the other. There IS nothing SPECIFIC in the TOS that says you cannot. Unless it is "assumed" as a result of all the legal mumbo jumbo about falling under the jurisdiction of CA law.
IF IT IS THERE, I can't find it.
[ edited by sulyn1950 on Sep 22, 2000 04:22 PM ]
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DrTrooth
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posted on September 22, 2000 04:22:46 PM
Sulyn - BINGO!
Someone got the point. LOL......
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chum
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posted on September 22, 2000 04:30:19 PM
DrTrooth
Just do what my friends have done. Start adding a handling fee on to the shipping. Personally I find auction life to be much easier using checks and money orders, and never have or will accept credit cards. I dont see what california has to do with other states.
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dman3
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posted on September 22, 2000 07:21:52 PM
this is an easy one What does califoria have to do with other states.
Ebay and bill point have to live up to the laws there where they do business from no matter what state your in if you do business with Ebay if you break cal law and they let you they are as guilty as you are, even if they say they are only a venue they have no imunity to the laws of the state they do business in, and more then technically your business is on there computer in that state.
by the way sellers may concider paypal billpoint and other services third party but to the buyer they are simply makeing a credit card transaction the card agreements say that merchants cant charge fees you are the merchant they send the payment to your email account from paypals or billpoint website there records state they sent a credit card payment to email address.
to get really technical all credit card transactions are third party each one is a small loan.
most credit cards allow the user 30 day to return or dispute the charge. none of us that sell at auctions would want the protection our credit cards allowe changed or voided.
in my opinion ebay and bill point both state clearly you cant charge buyers of there auctions these fees.
I am not for or against paypal or bill point or fees just my opinion.if it was your credit card and your purchase would you want to find you have no rights would you want to be charged a fee for the sellers convience my guess would be no you would buy from a seller that didnt charge these fees and who's credit card services offered all the protection you would get useing the card at the mall.
WWW.dman-n-company.com
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upriver
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posted on September 22, 2000 07:55:48 PM
The auction company that recently sold that Million Buck baseball card on eBay had the noive to charge a "10% buyer's premium" on top of the purchase bid!
Why can't we all do that? Seems to me it would cover all of the supposed "enhancements" we're all being so avidly sold on by these big businesses whose venue we use.
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dman3
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posted on September 22, 2000 08:28:00 PM
upriver:
you chose to use them high priced services your not forced
you could simply put in your listing, my starting prices are to low and my return to small to offer credit or credit card payments cash check or money orders only thank you.
Though buyer's premiums are very normal in the auction world feel free to call your handleing charge a buyer's premium.
10% is steep in my mind but its not out of line for high end items you might need to insure for a few hundered thousand or million to ship and deliver.
also 10% may not be out of line per sale if you are offering high end item with lower start bids and no reserves some might yell its a trick or hidden charge but if its clearly stated they honestly have nothing to yell about many buyers dont like hidden reserves any how.
rest knowing they more then likely didnt charge this buyer's premium to cover paypal or bill point fees.
WWW.dman-n-company.com
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networker67
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posted on September 22, 2000 11:15:57 PM
Drtooth - Since you brought it up try 15 days not 30. Now returning to the subject at hand.
Passing the fees for a credit card transaction is actually a contractual agreement between the card issuers and the merchants that accept them. With that said and accepted as fact. PayPal, Billpoint and others all are acceptance points for credit cards. As such contractually they can't accept charges that include fees for the accepting of cards because they would be in violation of their contracts with the card issuers (ie. Visa, Masterard, Discover, and American Express). As such their TOS with you may or may not "Specifically" state you cannot charge the fees on the transactions.
However, since they are already contractually bound not to charge the fees "Directly" to the consumer. That part of their contract extends to any third party contract that they form with users of their systems. Admittedly they should clean up their TOS's to spell this out with a degree of clarity.
However as a business person and consumer, why would you charge something that, you yourself wouldn't pay, if you were on the reverse side of the transaction. Try applying the "Golden Rule" to your business thought process and some of these questions would never be asked.
As for those of the opinion; adding them to the "Handling Fee". As long as you don't specifically state part of your handling fee is for the acceptance of credit cards you are in the clear. But keep in mind we got people placing everything but the kitchen sink in their handling fee as it is. So you guys will reach the point that your buyers will start passing on all auctions that have handling fees that exceed actual postage plus fair allowance for packing material cost.
Instead of trying to mickey mouse around about paying for services that open doors for your ebay operations. Why not do what real businesses have always done. Figure the fees into your inital listing prices for your auctions. Many ebay sellers seem to find this "Concept" extremely hard to grasp. Why I can't seem to grasp. But it works if you think business and not garage sale.
[ edited by networker67 on Sep 22, 2000 11:19 PM ]
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