posted on October 21, 2000 09:22:58 AM
I hear that some States with well-established auction laws are keeping tabs on unlicensed eBay sellers, and are prepared to slap them with hefty fines for selling without a license (a Felony) as soon as the State AG office approves their assertion that the States existing auction laws apply to eBay.
As we all know, eBay cooperates fully with Law Enforcement agencies.
Because State auction laws have been on the books for decades, they stand to collect millions in retroactive fines from illegal eBay sellers.
No non-payment issues either, since the non-licensed seller must post the fine when they are arrested. Where I live it is a Felony to conduct an auction without a license.
I'm sure mine is not a popular opinion, but me (and thousands of other eBay sellers) are in favor of auction firm licenses for eBay sellers.
The UCC regulations relating to interstate sales of goods are quite complex. My State has a challenging exam, and requires 80-hours of schooling before you take the test. They are also required a High School Diploma, a through criminal background check, and credit check, complete with FBI fingerprints.
No crooks or folks with bad credit are accepted for a license.
I see so many blatant violations of UCC regulations on eBay that requiring knowledge from sellers is the only solution.
Also, eBay fraud will STOP once the States enforce their auction licensing laws. Felony activity requires immediate police action and arrest.
eBay freely admits that they are not auctioneers, and are only a "venue". Since eBay sales are clearly auctions, who then, is the auctioneer? You are!
According to most State regulations, anyone who solicits or accepts bids is requires a valid aucion firm license. Also, anyone who buys goods for resale at auction requires a auction firm license. The law is quite clear and fully enforceable.
My State Auction Association has been lobbying extensively for online auction firms to have the same licensing requirements as any other auction firm. We number over 8,000 supporters, and have lots more clout than the tiny Online Auction User Association (OAUA).
As you may know, the OAUA was unsuccessful in stopping the NC Auctioneers Licensing Board from moving forward to their AG office for approval for applyng their auction Law to ebay. NC hopes to get final approval for enforcement early next year.
In my opinion, all States will eventually require auction firm licenses to sell on eBay.
posted on October 21, 2000 09:27:08 AM
Wasn't this brought up last year, when I believe it was North Carolina was supposed to do that-require ebay sellers to get a license to auction?
Never heard what actually happened back there. In my state, I heard, not sure its true, that its fairly easy to get one.
I have a business license to sell and a license to have a business in my home, I think thats good enough, if I pay the revenue taxes to my state? no?
posted on October 21, 2000 09:38:22 AM
Probator.
This has gone around and around and around.If something changes then it will become major news not just something that a few insiders will be aware of.
Besides if you really think that by getting people licensed this will stop fraud,then I have some beach front property for sale in Arizona for you.
Some of the biggest frauds in the auction business have been by the auction houses themselves.
Look at one of the most respected and well known auction house in the World that was involved in price fixing,shill bidding I think that has ended up in the courts with millions of dollars involved.Plus jail terms suggested.
So if they have one it and I am sure they have all the correct licenses world wide to do it.It really made a difference having them licensed didn't.Oh I have a license better not commit fraud all they look at is the might dollar.
Some others here can tell you about some of the crooked tactics that other auction houses both use and still use.Yet these are licensed too and it stopped them from fraudulent pracices did it not.
There is no solution to fraud,it will always be there to think it is not and will ever go away is a pipe dream.
posted on October 21, 2000 09:41:09 AM
Well, I'm not so sure now, as I just looked at the latest internet news, ya think it would be one of the headlines, but napster is, go figure...
And they brought the old posts about NC up again, if you'd go look....
edited to add: in my state there in no exams yearly fees thats it, but I doubt this is going to happen.
With a $4,000 fine (for each violation), Law Enforcement has a strong financial incentive to arrest illegal eBay sellers.
They also are entitied to seize all goods being sold illegally.
In my State, auction fraud has virtually become non-existent since they began agressive enforcement. Shilling and false advertizing bring swift and certain arrest.
Last year, you were talking about getting an Ohio auction firm license.
No, eBay is only a venue. They readily state that they do not perform any of the duties of an auctioneer.
The seller does all of the auctioneers duties.
The seller starts the bidding, determines the auction end time, solicits (and sometimes cancels) bids, accepts the winning, bid, and delivers the goods.
According to some States laws any one of the above requires an auction firm license.
posted on October 21, 2000 09:49:40 AM
Does anyone know where I can find out about my state? I have searched the internet and can't find a thing. Thanks..
[ edited by lmsh on Oct 21, 2000 09:50 AM ]
posted on October 21, 2000 09:56:39 AM
If this does come to a legal point, a simple change of ebays verbage, will take it out of the auction venue. Replace the bid button with "My Best Offer" Ebay would then change the verbage to The biggest online clasified ad in the word, where your best offer buys the item. Done deal! No auction laws. This is done every day in local newspapers, IE: I will take the best offer by noon Sat 12/01/2000 for my widget. As long as it is an item owned by you no auction laws, folks that collect a fee for selling other folks items would be a gray area. Ed
edhdsn
Don't you think that ebay has auctioneers license, and in every state? I'm sure their legal dept has all bases covered.
So if they are no part in this, and only a venue (in THIS aspect) why do we pay the FVF's to them for each and every item we sell? If they were only a venue (in This aspect) then we should only pay a listing fee, no final value fee's. As in live auction houses, the house or auctioneer gets a percentage if your item sells that he auctions.
posted on October 21, 2000 09:59:09 AM
There is no auctioneer, and there are no auctions at eBay.
In most states, an auction is defined as a process where an auctioneer makes repeated requests for bids. So sealed bid auctions, silent auctions, etc., are not "auctions" as defined by the laws of most states, and you don't have to be an "auctioneer" to run them.
What happens at eBay is most akin to a silent auction. Simply posting an item and announcing that it will be sold to the highest bidder 7 days later is not "making repeated requests for bids."
Now, if a seller wants to add a supplement to his eBay listing everyting a bid is placed, saying "Come on, folks, it's only at $6.00. Won'y somebody make it $6.50?", that would be an "auction". But I don't know anyone who does that.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:00:13 AM
Ed, was just thinking the same thing, how many times have you seen OBO (or best offer)
on things for sale? Exactly
The States want us to have "Auction Firm" licenses, and from reading the definitions, it appears that eBay sellers are indeed auction firms.
Here is the NC Statute:
"Auction Firm" means a sole proprietorship of
which the owner is not a licensed auctioneer, or any partnership,
association, or corporation, not otherwise exempt from this
Chapter, that sells either directly or through agents, real or
personal property at auction, or that arranges, sponsors,
manages, conducts or advertises auctions, or that in the regular
course of business uses or allows the use of its facilities for
auctions. This definition applies whether or not an owner or
officer of the business acts as an auctioneer.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:05:53 AM
I have heard these and many other rumurs in the past people who sell at online auctions are veiwed the same as people who list item in the new paper for sale or who hold garage sales.
Just because you use ebay or yahoo dont make you an auctioneer not buy a long shot. If state laws are going to hold anyone to license it will be the auction sites them selves.
after all you are selling at a online site so named Ebay auctions.
we are Ebay clients and being charged not only for listing there but also FVF if the Item sells.
For the moment do to the fact that Ebay charges the finail value fee and its in there best interest money wise to see all are items sell for as much as posible the Ebay we are just a venue statement is just barely truth now as it is
WWW.dman-n-company.com
posted on October 21, 2000 10:11:26 AM
Probater, just re read your first post, so NC hasn't got the new online auction license law yet?
And your pushing because you are a RL auctioneer?
Oh yes, I'm sure ebay is going to close up house, once every one of their millions of sellers are charged with a felony for not having a license for this, I doubt it, they will change, they make too much damned money not to, IF this happens.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:17:58 AM
Hi ShellyHerr,
The NC law has been on the books since 1973, and it is quite clear that anyone who buys goods for re-sale at auction requires an Auction Firm license.
No, I don't think eBay will shut down!
Many States, including California, have no licensing requirement.
However, eBay sellers in States where Auction Firm laws exist need to check to ensure that they have the proper licenses to be in compliance with their laws.
And, yes, a State can charge a seller for violations that occurred years ago.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:21:06 AM
Never mind, Probater, here it is:
(1) "Auction" means the sale of goods or real
estate by means of exchanges between an auctioneer and members of
an audience, the exchanges consisting of a series of invitations
for offers made by the auctioneer, offers by members of the
audience, and the acceptance by the auctioneer of the highest or
most favorable offer.
While selling on eBay, I've never made "a series of invitations for offers". I make ONE invitation for offers, when I post the listing on eBay, then I wait a week and see who has placed the high bid. eBay doesn't make "a series of invitations for bids" either; it just displays my listing and keeps track of the offers. That is not an "auction" as N.C. law defines it.
And every other definition ("auctioneer", "auction house" is dependent on the definition of "auction". So if neither I nor eBay is running an "auction", because neither of us is making "a series of invitations for offers", then neither of us can be considered an "auctioneer" or "auction house".
posted on October 21, 2000 10:21:23 AM
Probater~~~
I was heavily involved in the NC "situation".
The NC auctioneers licensing agency is a quasi-government agency. The commission is appointed by the government, however, they are not allowed to make a move without the government's okay. They have no power other than to collect fees and administer testing.
After telephone calls to senators, assemblymen, and local politicians by many North Carolinians, the agency was told to back off, that it did not apply to online "auctions"
Since we do not choose the bid increments, qualify the bidders, "call" auctions or hold monies in escrow for other parties, we are not auctioneers and are not subject to licensing.
posted on October 21, 2000 10:23:04 AM
Well damn, guess I'll go to jail, cuz they can't get any retro active fines from me, if I don't have them, right?
I mean come on, the gov't is gonna have put a special HUGE task force, to go to every single ebay sellers home or office, and fine or arrest them, no?
Well new gov't jobs for people, A LOT of new jobs.... hmmmmm
posted on October 21, 2000 10:32:25 AM
and further, I think this will have quite an impact on the whole 'chain' -where the 'ebay seller' buys his merchandise, where that merchandiser buys his, there is a long chain here.
I've read stories where ebay has created a place where the disabled, people on welfare, can go off that and make an income.
I've read where ebay is the sole support for single men, women, whole familys.
Maybe when this law passes that you are pushing for passes, most of these folks can get gov't jobs on the task force to enforce this new ebay auctioneers license, fines for not having it, or jail time?
posted on October 21, 2000 11:00:58 AM
Probater... you sound like the typical whiny socialist who wants to use regulatory powers to prevent any competition.
Yeah the internet thing really sucks... can't have private citizens making money w/o the middle man... not the american way huh?
But seriously carry on... I live in a state that doesn't regulate auctions, maybe you can wipe out a few of my competitors
posted on October 21, 2000 11:15:22 AM
Don't know why this issue is being raised right now. This has been pretty much a dead issue, since last December, when pressure from interest groups (inluding OAUA), the public, online auction sellers, and eBay caused the NC license board to back off.
State legislators directed the license board to stop their enforcement until the IT committee could review the matter. And there it sits, last I checked.
This issue is closely related to the larger and much more politically charged issue of internet taxation. States and the federal government are struggling to establish some sort of coherent policy re: internet taxation and regulation, and the legislators in NC didn't appreciate the NC license board overstepping their bounds and trying to use old B&M statutes to regulate internet auctions. So they got their wrists slapped, and they backed off.
If anyone knows of any RECENT enforcement efforts by any state auction licensing board, please let me know (I'll be gone much of the afternoon, but will review the thread when I return...)
Steve
[email protected]
