posted on January 29, 2001 01:09:17 PM new
A VeRO member, suspected to be a member only because of his trademark on the name "Digital Library" de-lists another competetor and my auctions whenever we are taking too many of his sales.
Each time, he contacts a different Community Watch representative at eBay. He is abusing this system.
We sell PUBLIC DOMAIN etexts from the Project Gutenberg collection. Proj Gutenberg allows entities to distribute the texts in any way as long as their notices are left on the texts. This VeRO member does not have the itellectual copyrights on "a gutenberg CD", many groups have done it before him, including the prominent Walnut Creek CD-ROM.
He has done this to me twice, and to another one of our competetors 5 or 6 times, just in the last month!
We are confident that we have done nothing wrong.
-I did not copy his CD. I have not even SEEN his CD.
-I did not copy his eBay AD. I was not aware that it existed until AFTER I had listed my first auction.
-My CD containes DIFFERENT supplementary tools than his.
-I do not use the product label "Digital Library" anywhere.
-He cannot copyright public domain text
-He does not have exclusive permission from P.G.
He is abusing the VeRO system. Am I helpless against this? Not only does this affect me in loss of revenue, headaches, and time, but he guilty of purjury by signing the VeRO statement knowing he has no right to. He is guilty of slander, by having eBay notify my bidders that I am basically a criminal and have an illegal product.
I have a relative that is a Patent Lawyer, and his son is also a promintent lawyer...between them I think I can seek vengenece if this goes further! I would much rather live and let live if this jerk would stop abusing the VeRO system. I appreciate the respectful, competitive atmosphere that eBay facilitates, but at times like this...
So much for U.S.'s capitalistic-competitive marketplace. And I guess the Community Watch at eBay is the exception to the U.S.'s "Innocent until proven guilty" as they wave around their wand of unliting auctions without even LOOKING at the auctions. That's right: I put a counter on each of the auctions, most were still at --0-- when they got unlisted. --Sorry eBay, I'm just frustrated. None of this seems like it is your fault.
I am not getting through to anybody though: eBay e-mail is backloged days! Heeeeelp!!
posted on January 29, 2001 01:37:06 PM new
This was the VeRO seller's reply to an e-mail I sent him
<i>
I have no way to confirm that your product is not a violation
of copyright. I have had numerous copycats who copy the CD,
claim it as their own work and proceed to sell it on eBay, thus
the need to set up a Vero acct. If you can provide me a copy
of your CD so I can verify it is not merely a copy of mine, but
a totally independent work of your own, then I will be happy to
let eBay know you are "go" for further ads.
Otherwise I have no choice but to continue to exercise my right
to protect the work that I did in compiling my CD by pulling
all products that "to the best of my knowledge" have to right
to be listed.
You can send me the copy at
-------------------
-------------------
JANESVILLE WI 53546
with all due respect, your continued threats of attorney action
are not very productive in coming to an equitable conclusion of
this matter.
</i>
HA! So much for innocent until PROVEN guilty!!!!!!! Should I send this guy one? If I do, I risk providing a competetor a FREE copy of my product. He can see my features, compare them to his for free, and improve his product!!!
[ edited by compnerd on Jan 29, 2001 01:39 PM ]
[ edited by compnerd on Jan 29, 2001 01:39 PM ]
posted on January 29, 2001 02:37:39 PM new
"HA! So much for innocent until PROVEN guilty!!!!!!!"
Say what?
You are talking about eBay aren't you?
Where have you been? eBay has NEVER practiced this on their venue. They prefer to have your trial, convict you, and sentence you without your input. Saves them the hassle of conducting a REAL investigation
posted on January 29, 2001 02:54:37 PM new
My guess would be to send a copy of that email, with headers, to ebay and let them know that the VERO that had your auction pulled, can not produce any evidence that your item is in violation of any copyright that he might hold.
The one time I had to have someone's auction pulled, under the VERO program, I had state EXACTLY what the copyright infringement was. If he can't tell w/out seeing your product... how did he manage to tell ebay.. with just a blanket statment? They might be interested in that.
posted on January 29, 2001 03:45:19 PM new
I've been having a VeROless problem. My auctions were cancelled a couple weeks ago under the generic "trademark, copyright, patent, etc." statement. Ebay is absolutely refusing to state what it was that I am supposedly infringing on and they are wholesale cancelling everything I put up even though one item isn't related to another.
This is definitely not a VeRO cancellation. I am not getting the VeRO cancellation email with the name of the owner of the trademark or copyright. I just keep getting the same generic statement indicated above for everything I put up. The only thing I've been able to get Ebay to reply in an email was their fax number and a statement that I may provide legal documentation as to my position why I should be allowed to auction the item. The problem... they won't tell me at all what the item is that I'm supposed to be defending. They just cancel everything I put up singly or in groups. Nothing is related to anything else. I even put up items I've never sold before and they get cancelled as well.
My real problem with this is that everything I sell is commonly available on ebay and the longtime sellers of these items are still around. My suspicion is that this is another seller not wanting competition so he is constantly writing emails to ebay making claims of suspected copyright infringement every time I post something.
posted on January 29, 2001 04:26:11 PM new
avaloncourt ... welcome to the club! What you are describing is exactly what happened to me. My listings were 100% legit and eBay would not tell me why they were ending them, or how they determined they may have been a "potential" infringing item. I KNOW it wasn't VeRO, and I also KNOW that eBay has no idea on who owns the copyrights to the items (I have the owner's OK in writing to sell the item). Figuring that someone was interfering with my auctions by providing false info to eBay, I relisted and whammo - got suspended ...
To this day, eBay has not been able to tell me why they ended my auctions.
Bill - does it cost anything to register as a VeRO? If not, and if eBay ever reinstates me, I think I will claim the rights to everything that starts with "H"
posted on January 29, 2001 05:04:42 PM new
RB: At least I know I'm not alone in this. I keep watching items up for auction by other sellers. About two weeks before this happened to me it happened to another seller and he did end up with a 2 week suspension. I exchanged several emails with him and discovered he experienced exactly the same thing and ebay wouldn't tell him a thing either.
I think this person is just picking off the competition one by one. Eventually, there will be one left and that will tell who the culprit is.
posted on January 29, 2001 06:10:30 PM new
We are also attempting to tople the fraud known as VeRO.
I won't say much, but we have been able to prove the horrendous actions that are capable by "masquerading" as a VeRO copyright holder.
eBay screwed up so many times with our little experiment, that the DOJ will have a FIELD DAY.
If you have a competitor that is selling more then you? use VeRO to shut them down, and move them out...we did...OVER A DOZEN TIMES!
even though we DID NOT own any copyrights.
(in our experiment of course)
Complain about 2 different competitors for the SAME violation, on the SAME item, and the Power Seller gets NOTHING, while the small seller gets NARU.
posted on January 29, 2001 08:48:50 PM new
Well, consider myself another documented case.
I faxed eBay at the VeRO number a signed document talking about the whole ordeal and testifying under eBay's famous penalty of perjury that I have not violated any copyrights or eBay policy.
posted on January 30, 2001 04:23:27 AM new
"Am I helpless against this? Not only does this affect me in loss of revenue, headaches, and time, but he guilty of purjury by signing the VeRO statement knowing he has no right to."
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=2&thread=254275&id=254275 has some information.
Any time he/she pulls the VERO claim against you, FIRE BACK to eBay with a properly filled-out challenge form, including the Gutenberg statement that is on the front of all their files. THEY *MUST* FILE SUIT AGAINST YOU OR EBAY *MUST* RESTORE THE AUCTIONS. That's the way the law works
1. Send copies of ALL their VERO claims to eBay's legal department and point out that the "VERO" has NO rights to block distribution of Gutenberg texts. Include the statement at the top of the Gutenberg files and the URL for the Gutenberg core site.
2. Point out that this seller is committing perjury with every VERO complaint because they DO NOT HAVE A COPYRIGHT on the Gutenberg texts, although they might on the SPECIFIC collection of texts and the software to read them.
posted on January 30, 2001 06:58:05 AM new
Hello Compnerd,
I think eBay is no friend of the VeRO program. My understanding is that it was forced upon eBay through legislation that was designed to protect copyright and trademark holders.
If a VeRO registers with eBay and then makes a complaint, eBay is compelled to pull the "offending" listings.
I think the fight is not with eBay per se but rather with folks who misuse the VeRO program.
I believe if someone has copyrighted a collection of public domain materials then they are not copyrighting the actual materials but rather the "unique" arrangement of those materials. As such, another similar but not identical arrangement of public domain materials would not be an infringement of their copyright.
I don't know what the precise mechanics of submitting a VeRO complaint to eBay are but I would assume that the VeRO would have to offer some proof that there was an actual infringement.
If reasonable proof is not being offered to eBay then eBay has no business pulling a listing.
The best way to handle this is to get a lawyer involved. eBay is not going to listen to you unless you have some legal expertise arguing your case.
"Aparently, they're backed up THREE DAYS! I can't afford to lose 3 more days of revenue."
Be prepared to lose quite a bit more than three days revenue over this. Legal proceedings take much more time and money than you can imagine. If you go the legal route one of your first questions should be if you can recover lost revenue and legal fees should you prevail against the VeRO.
If you don't want to go the legal route then I suggest you get a disk off to this VeRO pronto. Or rework your disk and your ad so that it is harder for the VeRO to present a complaint against you.
posted on January 30, 2001 07:42:14 AM new
That assumption of proof has no basis.
send a disk ?
ridiculous
Dear ebay seller,
I own a copyright and have no knowledge whether your offering infringes on it. Therefore immediately send me a free copy of your product so I can verify it is not merely a copy of mine. Otherwise I have no choice but to exercise my right to protect the work that I did by pulling all products that "to the best of my knowledge" have to right to be listed.
