posted on January 30, 2001 12:21:23 PM new
Hi all,
We've been discussing the viability of starting a co-op online auction house to face the dilemma of ePAY's apparent desire to bankrupt sellers of all sizes with their myriad of fees, not to mention stability of service.
If you want to read the discussion so far check out the thread "The dilemma of "FREE" auction sites" here on AW; and twinsoft has created a message board to continue this conversation also.
posted on January 30, 2001 04:09:42 PM new
Hi Jamie,
To answer your question: IS A CO-OP A GOOD IDEA AND ALTERNATIVE TO EBAY? YES, I think it is an excellent idea.
I think there is enough discontent NOW with eBay at this time with the increase in fees, No Customer Support, and their general overall attude that they want the little seller to go away.
I've been jumping from the 2 threads here in AW and twinsofts sight and the big concern that I'm seeing from sellers that is not being discussed is: What IS and is NOT going to be allowed to sell?
We don't want to turn into another eBay with their gastopo attitude dictating what you can sell and not sell.
At this point I don't know what the legal perameters are for selling firearms. As far as porn goes, it should be in its own retricted category, eBay did have the right idea about that. And well, you get the idea.
These things need to be on the table for discussion here where the sellers can exchange ideas on it.
posted on January 30, 2001 04:30:01 PM new
Hi Packer,
Wow, what to sell is putting the cart before the horse a bit.
To answer the question I think a co-op should sell whatever is legal to sell. Obviously a co-op that is one member, one vote can decide to not sell certain items and I can't speak for anyone else besides myself!
The point is that a seller's co-op that is non-profit, non-exclusive, one member, one vote that is very well run and organized will do quite well.
It's going to be a mighty hill to climb though to get to it!
Check out twinsoft's message board about this. AW doesn't want us to list the url so you will have to email twinsoft or me.
I agree. Here are the steps we are suggested to take-I've copied and pasted from the URL on Twinsoft's message board.
How to Start
The book, How to Organize a Cooperative, provides this sequence of events for cooperative formation:
Hold a meeting of leading persons to discuss a need that forming a cooperative might meet.
Hold an exploratory meeting of interested persons. Vote whether to continue. If affirmative, select a steering committee.
Conduct a survey to determine cooperative feasibility.
Hold a second general meeting to discuss the survey results. Vote on whether to proceed.
Conduct a market or supply and cost analysis.
Hold a third general meeting to discuss the results of the market or supply and cost analysis. Vote by secret ballot on whether to proceed.
Conduct a financial analysis and develop a business plan.
Hold a fourth general meeting to hear results of the financial analysis. Vote on whether to proceed. If affirmative vote on whether the steering committee should remain intact or whether changes should be made.
Draw up necessary legal papers and incorporate.
Call a meeting of all potential charter members to adopt the bylaws. Elect a board of directors.
Call the first meeting of the board of directors and elect officers. Assign responsibilities to implement the business plan.
Conduct a membership drive.
Acquire capital - develop a loan application package.
Hire a manager
Acquire facilities
Start up operations.
The primary organizational documents for cooperatives are the Articles of Incorporation and the Bylaws. Other legal documents may include the membership application and membership certificate.
The Articles of Incorporation state the kind and scope of the cooperative business. Often broad operating authority is stated even though services may be limited at the beginning. The articles usually contain the following:
name of the cooperative
principle place of business
purposes and powers of the cooperative
proposed duration of the cooperative
names of the incorporators
a provision for redemption of member equity although sometimes this is in the bylaws
The Bylaws state the rights and obligations of the cooperative's board of directors and members and guide the day-to-day operations of the cooperative. The bylaws usually specify the following:
requirements for membership
rights and responsibilities of members
grounds and procedures for member expulsion
procedures for calling and conducting membership meetings voting procedures
procedures to elect or remove directors and officers
the number, duties, terms of office, and compensation of directors and officers
time and place of the directors meetings
dates of the fiscal year
information on how the net earnings will be distributed
other rules for management of the cooperative
So who and how will we vote on the "leading persons" to hold the first meeting as suggested in item #1?
posted on January 30, 2001 04:52:23 PM newWow, what to sell is putting the cart before the horse a bit.
Well, I'm not so sure that's true. I would imagine those who sell the types of items that are banned by eBay might have a different opinion.
Obviously a co-op that is one member, one vote can decide to not sell certain items...
So the posibility exists that people may put their effort into helping to build a new site, and once things are up and running, have their business shut down? That doesn't seem like a good thing.
posted on January 30, 2001 04:59:52 PM new
Well there's a chance that a site won't get built. That won't help you either if you are a seller of such material.
I think it's about organization.
I also think we have to get certain things done first before we get to deciding categories. Just my opinion.
Just go to twinsoft's message board for more info. Email me or Twinsoft for the url.
Jamie
canvid13
[email protected]
[ edited by canvid13 on Jan 30, 2001 05:01 PM ]
posted on January 30, 2001 05:20:35 PM new
mrpotatohead -
What to sell?
Part of this would depend on federal and international laws ... I would hope a BUYER would know what they can get LEGALLY through customs.
Part of this MIGHT depend on the location of the "home office", because that state's laws MIGHT govern what the site can list. this would need a legal opinion. If it's just a quesiton of what can legally be ON a server in the state, moving certain files or sectors to a server in a different state or country is always a possibility.
Some items are way too much hassle to sell, because of the patchwork of laws and/or the legal regulation and prohibition of them, and the bad PR:
1. Firearms and certain other weapons, such as throwing stars and switchblades.
2. Foods (home-made kind ... all kinds of local health regs, and we don't want to be killing of our buyers) except packaged commercial stuff (as in
3. Live animals, stud service (bad PR)
4. Parts of dead animals (various state, federal and international guidelines need to be followed depending on species, but it's feasible).
5. BOOZE ... I would restrict it to verified buyers over 21 (signed notarized statement mailed in!)
6. Drugs and chemicals ... anything that needs a federal license to sell, or is on the HAZMAT lists of things that can't be shipped without warnings plastered all over the boxes (usually small quantities of these are OK)
7. Porn .... separate search engine and browse categories, AND sellers honor bound to avoid shocking the general public, and I would restrict it to verified buyers over 18 (signed notarized statement mailed in!) Of course, kiddy porn, bestiality and anything that is legally ruled obscene, or violates health regs (dirty underwear), or privacy (persons in any films who were not aware they were being filmed as in the "up the skirt" amateur videos) would have to be banned, but no reason to ban it all.
7. Nazi and other "hate group" memorabilia ... it's LEGAL to offer for sale in the USA, and as long as we do not do establish a branch in Europe, we're OK.
My only gripe are the ones pedlding the "how-to" when they obviously fell for an info-peddling scam
posted on January 30, 2001 05:47:58 PM new
I sell many things including some adult items. I would like to have a web site that treats me like a first class citizen not a sleazeball when I sell perfectly legal adult items. I pay the same fees as everyone else and I want to be treated the same way. As for illegal stuff---sure, have all the rules you want, but let me sell my legal adult stuff without constant hassles. Verify the user's age once and after that let them access the adult area---is that really so hard?
Kim
P.S. A signed statement is one thing---cumbersome but reasonable---but notorized? you've got to be kidding. Not only does the ordinary buyer not want to bother to do that, but he/she doesn't want some other person knowing his business (the notary). The process you suggest smacks of trying to discourage the audience from getting the material in the name of keeping children away from it (a worthy goal that can be accomplished in more efficient ways). This is a legal product, you don't need to put those types of barriers between it and the audience who wants to buy it just to keep kids out. Kids can be kept away from it very efficiently through adult-check services. Adult sites have worked out a good system of adult age-checking without the snail-mail paperwork you suggest---this new auction site doesn't have to re-invent the wheel. Use their technology and you will have happier sellers AND buyers. Remember---Adult buyers are also buyers of other things from non-adult sections...they're not just sleazy old men---they are men, women, couples, etc., who may just have finished buying collectibles or other goods, and decided to check out that "adult" item they've been wanting to buy. Adult buyers are your friends and neighbors, your adult kids, or your parents. Don't put them into some "weirdo"category...treat them well!
[ edited by brighid868 on Jan 30, 2001 05:57 PM ]
posted on January 30, 2001 06:04:20 PM new
What about lawsuits of one sort or another brought on by any number of disgruntled people? We will all be liable, no?
posted on January 30, 2001 06:04:45 PM new
God knows we need a good alternative to ebay, and with Yahoo heading south quick, we need something soon before ebay prices all of us out of business.
I don't see a co-op really contending with ebay especially since when I mentioned a $5 mill marketing budget, I was told that it is not needed, and there are other alternatives. Ok so the plan is to be a niche player, that is fine. What will our niche be? What message can we promote that will get buyers to come to our site that differents us from ebay? How exactly is this message going to be promoted? Simply setting up shop and waiting for buyers won't cut it, or the co-op will be another dot bomb.
Simply here's the main elements needed for a co-op survival, sorry for the generalizations but there's corporate spy's watching: 1)Become a niche (2)Create a professional layout with easy navigation -see ebay for a good example- (3)monthly fixed fees, not per auction (4)Charge buyers a small yearly membership fee. This eliminates much of the deadbeat problem, promotes users to buy more, generates needed revenue, and memberships gives a more of a sense of belonging to a group.
Right now it appears like this co-op is a long shot but I know a few people here who could pull it together and make it work. I think everything is going on behind closed doors and that's the way it should be because of corporate spys eyeing these boards but I know a co-op can't be started with a few self-appointed leaders. So why don't we head over to our own private chat board and get things moving?
\"It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.
\"
posted on January 30, 2001 06:20:21 PM new
Hey Quickdraw, are you a corporate spy? (g)
Nobody shot you down over that number. I think I said it was premature.
Let's take this one baby step at a time.
ZEENZA: The co-op would be a non-profit corporation. It would have insurance and limited liability. I think we'd really have to do something heinous to have anything affect us personally.
Good questions. Keep them coming and check out twinsoft's message board.
posted on January 30, 2001 06:37:19 PM new
Yep canvid, I'm Megs's righthand man, and I spend my time on AW providing my thoughts for a co-op, because Meg didn't give me a raise.
I think it was Radh that shot my $5 mill marketing budget down. That is fine by me, but I don't undertand why these threads keep discussing what the sellers can sell and blah blah blah without a single mention about marketing! Scar-eee.
posted on January 30, 2001 06:52:15 PM new
QD: Nobody is not talking about marketing. If you read through the main thread you will see that we are already advocating a strong marketing position. It's just a bit premature to come up with a number when we don't have our group going yet?
I suggest you check out and read twinsofts's message board and leave your questions, comments, and input.
I agree with you that marketing is an important factor in getting a site to be successful.
posted on January 30, 2001 07:03:36 PM new
different people have different areas of expertise, we can all talk about different aspects.....i am talking about adult buying/selling because that's one of the main issues between me and Ebay (ideologically speaking). i agree that marketing should be talked about too, but that's not really an area I care to be involved in, having worked at marketing ONE dot-bomb already...i'm sick of it!
posted on January 30, 2001 07:16:25 PM new
brighid868 -
"Verify the user's age once and after that let them access the adult area"
OK, but HOW do you do that. With CC companies giving cards to kids, and kids lifting their parent's CC numbers, the only way to verify is for somone to show up IN person somewhere with the form, and have it notarized. Can you think of any other POSITIVE identification measure?
"Kids can be kept away from it very efficiently through adult-check services. Adult sites have worked out a good system of adult age-checking without the snail-mail paperwork you suggest--"
OK ... how does it work, and can it be defeated? AND can it be used for verifying ID of other buyers?
posted on January 30, 2001 07:27:18 PM new
abacaxi-
How about the service the porn sites use called Adult-Check? Not that I would know anything about it being a Nun and all(hehe)
but I did have to sign up to it with a credit card for another type of web site I was trying to get to, did cost me $9.99 for a year, 'tho.
posted on January 30, 2001 08:27:20 PM new
These are good questions and ideas. Let's get some comments about them and please, check into twinsoft's message board.
posted on January 30, 2001 08:51:36 PM new
abacaxi: I'm not sure how Adult Check works. I believe it consists of a credit card verification and several statements that the applicant is of age. of course having a credit card is no guarantee of any age at all, these days---because many ATM cards have the Visa thing on it, and I had an ATM card at age 14 (same age I started my bank account.) And underaged persons can most definitely lie. But my understanding is that Adult Check is on the whole effective, in the sense of keeping the sites legal. That is what it is for, to remove liability for the site, not to filter out every single hormonal 16 year old who is determined to see naked bodies undulating...
They do not have these statements notarized, and yet I am unaware of any individual sites using adult check being sued, because in the event of a lawsuit with a parent saying "You let my little Susie see porn!" the site could come back with "Not only did Susie use a credit card to verify her (false) age, but more importantly, she LIED on specific questions regarding her age in order to get through our age verification". Even if minors cannot sign contracts, a clear intent to deceive would be there and would speak pretty loudly for itself.
We may vary on our objectives. Mine is to filter out/separate kids from porn so that it is neither exposed to them involuntarily nor is it readily available to them. However I do not support extreme measures in a vain effort to keep kids who are absolutely determined to see porn and will steal a credit card or lie to do so, away from it. I think that is fighting a losing battle and that trying to fight that battle limits the lives of adults too much. I think reasonable precautions should be taken, but I don't think getting something notarized in order to see an X rated flick is reasonable. If 16 year old Bobby who has lied about his age and used his dad's credit card in order to buy Jenna Jameson or Hustler Big Busty Gals, then yes, he will slip through the "filter" we set up, but there's no way I would take the blame for that one! And I believe most reasonable people would agree. Think of this analogy: The fact that some people steal their older sister's ID to purchase booze or cigarettes does not mean we now ask for fingerprints so that absolutely, positively, nobody gets liquor or smokes when they're underage. Does that mean we are soft on kids smoking or drinking? No---it means that we are unwilling to go to ridiculous extremes to stop those who are determined to break the rules we clearly set up. Rather we take reasonable precautions and accept that kids that will go beyond them, stealing or lying to do something illegal, are the problem, not the liquor store owner.
Now...my OWN answer to this problem would be to have all credit cards contain a birthdate that would have to be inputted just as the expiration date is inputted, to verify the card. Then we could have an excellent system of verification....oops unless Bobby steals dad's card...
I think we need to have a balance of secure and convenient. Notarizing is secure (like fingerprinting would be) but it is not convenient and the additional kids it would filter would, I believe, be a small percentage.
posted on January 30, 2001 09:47:55 PM new
Hi, discussing what to sell is something we'll need to do first. We need to do that as part of a preliminary business plan. We want to be inclusive and we all have our pet peeves. I know I do. Nobody wants the sellers co-op turned into a porn den or clearinghouse for automatic weapons. There will be a need for a way to express grievances to the co-op, whether it be for questionable items, lousy sellers or refund requests.
mrpotatohead, factions taking over the co-op is a very real problem. We need to research this more and educate ourselves on the workings of the co-op.
"What about lawsuits of one sort or another brought on by any number of disgruntled people? We will all be liable, no?" No, I don't think so.
We want to do this right the first time. By its very nature, the co-op must be built to last (not inflated like a balloon). Whether or not we plan to "compete" with eBay, judging by the support expressed so far, we should take that possibility into consideration.
Some of eBay's biggest sellers are the shipping supply vendors. I'm sure they would be interested in selling at an online sellers co-op. Would eBay notice? Uh huh. Five thousand bubble mailers sold means 5000 quarters out of eBay's pocket. Oh, they'd notice in a hurry.
Quickdraw, nobody's overlooking that. Abacaxi mentioned several times he has some resources that wouldn't cost too much. Five million is too much. Right now we're looking at an exodus of sellers who got "nickeled and dimed" to death on eBay and now Yahoo. They're not going to take any five million dollar ideas seriously. Word of mouth advertising could work for us in a big way, especially when word gets out to the major news sources. A few articles on MSNBC and we'd be sailing.
BrightID, that is an important issue. We must consider sales of "questionable" items. I use the term "questionable" because certain items generate a requirement for far more support. In other words, how do we handle the millions of complaints about used cheerleader panties, bootleg CDs, etc.? We don't have the answer to those questions right now. The more input people are willing to give, the better for everyone.
posted on January 30, 2001 10:32:47 PM new
well...I don't know about panties...have never sold those, seems like they could be a sticky issue no pun intended....I stick to vids and stuff....but please keep a distinction in your mind between your average adult video and a bootleg recording....the first is perfectly legal for persons above age 18...the second is illegal for everybody....although some of the concerns may be the same, I don't think they're really equivalent....but I know that's not what you meant. Just picking a bone. lol
posted on January 30, 2001 10:49:22 PM new
BrightID, some LEGAL items generate a lot of support (complaints). This is something we need to look at closer. Send me a porn vid and I'll let you know.
posted on January 30, 2001 10:59:24 PM new
My own pet peeve is nazi memorabilia. I don't like it. I don't know what the legal issues are regarding its sale. I know it is illegal in some places. I hesitate to simply apply my own personal preferences and ask that nazi memorabilia be benned without examing all sides, including whether nazi stuff is hate matter or protected speech.
posted on January 31, 2001 06:06:54 AM new
brighid868 -
I've had enough fake IDs in my life to start a small town
If AdultCheck is enough to keep the local prosecutors off the seller's cases come election year, that's good.
I agree that parents need to make sure their kids aren't using CCs without knowledge and consent ... give Susie a cardf and you are responsible for what she does with that card. In some states, parents are legally liable for the illegal acts of their children.
"Abacaxi mentioned several times he has some resources that wouldn't cost too much. Five million is too much."
That's SHE, thank you, and there are marketing/PR methods that are "fast and free", "free, but slower and takes time or talent" and inexpensive for a group but prohibitive for a seller ... there's where the co-op can really help us.
Twinsoft ...
When banning any class of "opinion" items, you run into judgement calls. I personally RESENT having my religion portrayed as "devil-worshipping idolatry" in the various Christian books for sale on eBay, but they have the right to their opinion, althiough I could probably get the auxctions shut down as "hate speech".
And what would you do with a hand-written memoir from Auschwitz? Yes, it's NAZI memorabilia, but the danged stuff is also HISTORY ... as are the Civil War memorabilia, slave memorabilia, and other reminders that we are a nasty species when given the chance.
posted on January 31, 2001 06:22:22 AM new
Thanks for that clarification, Abacaxi. "Questionable items," specifically the items that draw a lot of complaints, are an issue we'll have to look at carefully. We don't want to start arbitrarily banning items that "we don't like." On the other hand, if a specific type of item (for example, pornography) requires a full-time support staff just to handle all the complaints, the co-op may withdraw its support for that kind of item. We'll need to look at how existing co-ops handle this problem, decide on values and principles, figure out what goes in the charter and what part the members decide, etc.
posted on January 31, 2001 06:59:20 AM new
Interesting. I think that if we set up like the Senate with each area having its own reps it will help organize all this.
New groups could bring their area to the co-op and lobby for entrance.
When you're dealing with millions of people you will always get some who want to tell others how to run their business.
It's all about organization. I also don't like Nazi memorabilia but if it's legal then unless the extreme majority votes it down there's a place for it in the co-op.
I hate guns. Again, if related products are legal then you can't say much.
I sell videos. I have had ebay remove Pretty Baby with Brooke Shields. It's a studio produced movie that's for sale on most video shelves and isn't illegal anywhere that I know of?
I think the point is that if we have a fair and organized policy regarding goods and enforce it properly we'll have a minimum of problems.
Then again if the majority as a whole doesn't want something in, it will be voted out.
Something to think about. Let's talk about it on Twinsofts message board.
posted on January 31, 2001 10:28:25 AM new
Set this up like the Senate? Oh, please no! Rules, rules and more rules are a killer to the free market. Look at what's happening at ebay with alltheir rules. I say sell whatever attracts a minimum amount of buyers. It'd be a good idea to limit what is being sold to be no older than two years. Ebay already has a lock on the older collectibles which is not an area I'd want to compete. But newer items are where you generate the most activety anyway and would concentrate the most sellers into certain categories allowing these areas to be big, and that is how we attract buyers.
Now I realize many of us, me included, sell a lot of older collectibles, and this idea won't fly with them, but that would require the co-op to compete with ebay head on with at least $200 million advertising budget, which is not practical unless get a VC behind this, and obviously no one here wants this to be that big of an operation, so we need to cut out the older collectibles.
posted on January 31, 2001 11:08:55 AM new
I am not against any individual or business selling through the seller'c co-op. Care must be taken so that no party or faction has greater control. If any big company is putting in a lot of money (see Sun Microsystems), say $1M a year, they will have a DE FACTO power. Please think about this carefully. An additional $1M from Sun, or $10M, or whatever, will cause listing fees to drop for everyone. What if Sun starts wrangling? "Increase the advertising budget or we leave." What about that?
One member, one vote is only part of it. The co-op is also about social responsibility. We must make sure it is preserved for everyone, not just the big businesses. No party or group can be allowed to exert special influence.
One idea that has been proposed is eliminating FVFs. I think that may be a good solution. There's a lot to consider and again, we must educate ourselves about the nature of co-operation.
Regarding that issue, and questionable items. We must weigh the issues, and consider both the interests of the co-op AND our social responsibilities. It may be that a certain type of legal item simple generates too much trouble and expense. I am not going to be the one to convince an antique dealer that he has a moral imperative to pay for the additional support required by porn sellers. There is no easy answer to this question.
Now, about the rules. Co-op members do more than pay dues. They also actively support and maintain the co-op. That means keeping up with co-op issues and voting in regular meetings. That is the way a co-op works. I can't think of a polite way to say this, but those who aren't willing to perform their duties have no place in the co-op. They can still sell their goods, but there are no membership benefits.
Now that doesn't mean that we all take turns as programmers or lawyers. But it does mean that each of us will be contributing in some way. I would think that at a minimum there would be a monthly membership meeting for voting and also a turn on a rotating, administerial "board of directors" once a year.
posted on January 31, 2001 11:18:13 AM new
Quickdraw:
" It'd be a good idea to limit what is being sold to be no older than two years. Ebay already has a lock on the older collectibles which is not an area I'd want to compete."
OK ... and you are selected to be the arbiter of how old things REALLY are. As soon as you start limiting CONTENT (as long as it's legal) you are setting up for problems with enforcement.
If the sellers of 300-year old books, 150 year old glassware OR year-old kid's clothes want to sell ... let them.
"that would require the co-op to compete with ebay head on with at least $200 million advertising budget"
And on what marketing degree do you base this estimate? It is VERY possible to achieve critical mass with a heckuva lot less than 200,000,000 !
TWINSOFT:
"It may be that a certain type of legal item simple generates too much trouble and expense."
If a certain kind of item generates a lot of support and arbitration issues ... we vote whether to increase their listing fees to pay for the extra hassle of vote to discontinue that item or items.
posted on January 31, 2001 11:36:00 AM new
Great post abacaxi.
Lots of good stuff.
Regarding Sun the opposite could be true. There's only one sun but millions of Radh's? And no I'm not defending big corps against little sellers.
What if we get a huge amount of post card sellers as opposed to books? The amounts of sellers will always fluctuate and yes, sometimes the boards may sometimes be more lopsided.
The point being that in a co-op change can occur. Try doing that with ePAY?!
As for my Senate idea, if we end up with a million members after a year who all want to be heard it can be a bit hectic.
If these groups work amongst themselves and then have their reps work within the governing board it would still be representitive but easier to work from.
and I spend my time on AW providing my thoughts for a co-op, because Meg didn't give me a raise.
