posted on February 5, 2001 10:55:03 AM new
Here's a question related to eBay's definition of spam as it relates to fee avoidance and off-auction deals.
Lets say I put up a reserve auction. The auction ends with a few bids BUT the reserve has NOT been met.
So, I email the high bidder with something like this (even using eBay's email form):
Hi xxxxx,
I wanted to thank you for bidding on my left handed golf ball. The reserve price for this rare item was xxxxx. Even though you didn't meet the reserve, I still appreciate your interest and thank you for bidding.
Sincerely, me
xxxxx@xxxxx (<-----my actual email address)
-------------------------------------------
Now, I've made NO attempt to sell the item. I've simply thanked the bidder and revealed the reserve price (and, of course my actual email address). I don't think this could be defined as a "commercial" email, could it? So, would eBay consider this a "spam" offense?
Ray (who knows how silly this is, as my left handed golf balls ALWAYS sell but I was just posing the question hypothetically)
posted on February 5, 2001 11:00:42 AM new
LEFT-HANDED gold ball????
I would say that, viewed with yBaY's greedy eyes, the moment you make ANY contact will be considered SPAM (or looking to make a sale )...Plus, you really don't know for sure if the bidder might not REPORT you to EbAy... Time to start looking over one's shoulder...Paranoia is here to stay
********
Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 5, 2001 11:02:26 AM new
Theoretically, it still seems like "unsolicited commercial email" to me. Its "commercial" since its related to your auction, not to a personal relationship, and unsolicited since they didn't request it. These kinds of letters are pretty common marketing fare, after all, in many lines of business (insurance, real estate, etc). Its pretty clear they are related at least indirectly to future business (potential customer management) if not specifically to current business (solicitation of a bid).
Having said that, the chance of that person objecting and notifying ebay and ebay deciding to do anything about it is pretty darn small.
posted on February 5, 2001 11:14:14 AM new
Hi Sosh,
Well, even eBay seems to define spam as any unsolicited COMERCIAL email. I would consider my example email one of good customer relations and consideration. I know when I bid in a reserve price auction and I don't win, I would like to know what the reserve price was. Just to know.
AND, even if the bidder DOES consider my email spam and DOES file a complaint against me, it's still eBay that will be dishing out any punishment (such as being banned from using the email forms or being suspended from the site), SO, eBay will have to be ready to defend any actions they take, based on their own rules and policies. Does my example actually violate eBay's rules as written?
posted on February 5, 2001 11:24:30 AM new
Hi captainkirk,
Well, it seems like a simple thank you note to me. This whole eBay thing IS a business or at least it's about buying and selling. So, would eBay define ANY communication as spam? Even just a thank you note? I guess it would depend on how eBay defines the word "commercial". I haven't seen eBay's actual definition on that one.
posted on February 5, 2001 11:28:36 AM new
Hi Ray Waving at ya....
Well, YOU are being LOGICAL...More than can be expected from eBaY... They seem to apply different definitions to suit THEIR need..
********
Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 5, 2001 11:47:06 AM new
It would seem reasonably clear that a thank you note as pertains to a bid on an item is "commercial".
Now if the entire note consisted of catching up on common friends, inviting them to dinner, etc., then it would be personal, not commercial. But that's not the case here, even if you used polite language.
A "simple thank you" note can definitely be commercial. As I said, I see it all the time in the rest of the business world - accompanied in the physical world with a business card (in your case accomplanied by an email addy).
I mean, it is a pretty obvious "invitation to counter-offer", isn't it?
posted on February 5, 2001 02:59:24 PM new
:::sprinkling "LightenUpDust" on the end of this thread then going off to play golf on the freeway overpass near eBay in San Jose with the left-handed golf balls that I just bought from RM beacuse he sent me an email after my bid didn't meet his reserve:::
posted on February 5, 2001 04:24:30 PM new
LOL! Well first of all, I am just sort of playing here with this thank you note. I realize that we all have our own ideas of what we want and don't want in email.
I just wonder what eBay would do or try to do about something like this. I don't agree that it's automatically "commercial" just because I mentioned an item I had for sale. There was no offer to buy or sell anything. I never implied anything. I simply said thank you, revealed the reserve price and signed with my email address. Was it an invitation to make an outside deal? If I said no, what would make you feel otherwise?
It's difinitely unsolicited, no question. BUT spam is defined as unsolicited COMMERCIAL email and a thank you to someone who showed interest in my item is of course business related but does it fit the definition of commercial? I'm not so sure about that.
and thanks tentwentytwo. I hope you enjoy the
golf balls. If they work out for you, I've got some left handed golf cart wheels I'm gonna be putting up. I'll email you and let you know. (wink) <-----now that's spam for sure.
posted on February 5, 2001 04:28:26 PM new
There's definitely something offensive about it. Buyer has clearly stated an unwillingness to pay the reserve price. Why would buyer be presumed receptive to such a message having already rejected the price?
You want a more quesionable case, offer it to non-reserve meeting bidder at that bidder's high bid.
posted on February 5, 2001 04:28:50 PM new
SHHHHHH Ray, you're distracting me, I'm trying to hit 350 yards with my driver through Meg's window to get her attention...
If I received your proposed email message after an auction, it wouldn't bother me, and I'd never even think about reporting it to eBay, but after bidding in at least a thousand auctions, I've yet to have a seller contact me just to thank me for bidding.
I would interpret it as an attempt to work a deal on the item, but that's just me...
posted on February 5, 2001 05:02:16 PM new
As a bidder, I wouldn't think anything of it. As a seller, I would think of it as spam. That is, if I sent someone a similar email, I'd be thinking, "Contact me, I'm still open to offers." I'd suggest, within the auction description, "thank you for reading/bidding."
posted on February 5, 2001 06:09:04 PM new
Ray, its commercial. I don't know why you haven't come to this solid conclusion as well, other than the fact, of course, that you'd like the answer to be otherwise.
No matter how you slice it, it comes up peanuts. Or spam in this case.
posted on February 5, 2001 07:52:59 PM new
OK. What if the buyer contacts you? In other words, they contact you wanting to buy the item or asking for the reserve price? I have sent e-mails to sellers requesting the reserve price (if I really wanted the item). I never thought twice about it-was that SPAM? I have also had many, many, many buyers contact me and I was GLAD for it. After all, I wanted the item. Have Ebay's rules changed recently? I know their fees sure have!!!
posted on February 5, 2001 08:39:50 PM new
Hi Ray;
As written, I think your note is clearly an enducement to strike a deal in one way or another.
The key for me is revealing the reserve price. Drop that and it just becomes a thank you note. Send these to every unsuccessful bidder, even on non=reserve auctions that sold, and it would reduce the transactiom promotion element even more.
Course that could be a lot of emails.
In any case, it really depends on the person that gets the email. If they report it....well ebay doesn't have a sterling reputation for careful or thoughtful investigation. So it's a crap shoot.
I wouldn't report it. But I wouldn't send it either.
posted on February 5, 2001 09:47:32 PM newmrlatenite: Most of what you said of the differences is precise and, IMO, correct. The difference between there being a transaction (a winning bid binding the seller and buyer for the length of completing the sale) and not being a transaction (non-high bid) is significant, and meaningful.
One bit I'm not clear on is: "On the other hand if they had won, then that means they did enter a contract with you, and that it WOULD subject them to email from you, a winning bid IS a solicitation for future email"
How long is "future email" here? I'd define as email dealing with the transaction that has just begun. Once the sale is complete, or has failed (FVF), that should be end of contact, unless the seller clearly asks (as part of a transaction note, not a separate note) if the buyer is interested in receiving future emails about other auctions (or whatever), and waits for the buyer's explicit permission to do so (full opt-in). I want the item I bid on, not the item and additional marketing I did not give explicit permission for.
[All]:
"Reserve" confused me in one major aspect, though. When I first signed on a few years ago, I read about reserve and interpreted it as meaning that if the high bidder did not make reserve, it was up to the seller whether or not to accept the high bid (and if so, contact the high bidder). So I would have treated an email from such a seller, on that one auction, as transactional (non-spam).
Evidentally this would be fee avoidance, even before eBay's recent rule changes. If "reserve" is and always has been a hard limit, then bids not meeting the reserve, even high bids, are non-transactions, and any contact by the seller I'd consider spam. If the buyer made contact with the seller, however, this would not be spam IMO, though if the buyer tries to get the seller to end the auction early, that would be auction interference.
Yes, RM's hypothetical case is more borderline than bulk, and yes, some of it could be friendly rather than pushy in nature, but in a day when telemarketers are using both pushy and deceptively "friendly" tactics, and even have the nerve to start to insist their are "courtesy calls" to try to get around some states' tightening anti-telemarketing laws, even the friendly-looking notes will increasingly be seen as just one more direct marketing tactic, even if it isn't meant that way.
Sorry, RM, your hypothetical case, if carried out, would be better-meaning than bulk spammers, even in the commercial context, but still....
When it comes down to spam, what the phrase "unsolicited commercial email" (UCE) does not happen to make clear, I think this should (theoretically and IMO, anyway):
If it
1) has to do with an actual transaction (not failed bid or abandoned order) at hand, or
2) has to do with a specific question a potential buyer asked of a seller, or
3) the seller asked, during a previous transaction (see #1) or Q&A (see #2), if the consumer is interested in later marketing, and the consumer gave clear, explicit permission (and has not since asked to be removed from further mailings), or
4) has nothing to do with selling a product (e.g. an old friend making contact),
then it is NOT spam; anything else is.
Or more simply, if it's commercial, is not for an ongoing transaction, and the seller can't secure explicit customer permission during an transaction or consumer-initiated Q&A for later marketing, there should not be any (further) email contact.
Sorry if this attitude stinks, but blame the direct marketers (bulk emailers, telemarketers, etc. ) for poisoning the marketing well and making cynics of more and more consumers.
And yes, eBay's motives are questionable, but "spam" is "spam," regardless of whether eBay tries lumping it in with "fee avoidance" as if they were inseparable.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on February 5, 2001 10:06:09 PM newboochnee: I don't consider a buyer making a serious inquiry of a seller, about the possibility of items not currently being sold on eBay to be spam. I still am not perfectly clear on what eBay means in this regard.
If the buyer tries to induce the seller to end a currently-running auction, then it would clearly be fee avoidance, however.
kenlee: "The key for me is revealing the reserve price. Drop that and it just becomes a thank you note. Send these to every unsuccessful bidder, even on non=reserve auctions that sold, and it would reduce the transactiom promotion element even more."[/i]
Yes and no. Yes because it sort of reduces the promotion element, but no because it would still be thanking the bidder for bidding on a commercially-offered item, and thus still commercial in nature.
"Course that could be a lot of emails."
Yes, and spam in my book. This kind of email would almost double the volume of commercial related email I receive.
The idea, while well-meaning in a business sense, would roughly the equivalent of walking into a store and auction house and being forced to surrender my ID (given how eBay currently allows access to the email addresses) any time I made a bid or asked about the price, and then being mailed or called by them even if I wasn't willing to pay the final price, for them to say "thank you."
Offline, there is a difference between thanking the browser on the way out of the store (a good practice, seriously), and "following" them home (by phone or mail -- a bad practice, IMO). For eBay, thanking them "on the way out," is still simple enough, and already quite common: making one of the final sentences on the auction (ad) page be something like: "Thank you for checking out my auction!"
More to the point, if a seller is willing to "pssst" the reserve price, why not simply do this on the auction page, or lower the reserve slightly on such items? Easier and less time-consuming on everyone, with no chance of being misinterpreted as spam, right?
You wouldn't need to send an email like that if you disclosed the reserve price in the auction now would you ??
I am wondering about an email I could send very similar to yours, but not for a reserve auction.
What if I were to send this email through ebay's new system :
Hi xxxxx,
I wanted to thank you for bidding on my left handed golf ball. I am sorry you were outbid (sniped) at the end of the auction. I have listed another one of these left handed golf balls identical to the one you missed out on, here is a link to the auction.
Sincerely,
my ebay user id (<-----which happens to be my actual email address)
OK
So how do you think ebay would look at this ?
I am not offering to complete a sale "off of ebay", therefore I am not guilty of "fee avoidance".
posted on February 5, 2001 11:11:59 PM new
I think this would, also, be Spam, unless the buyer had previously asked you to "put them on your mailing list" kind of thing. Otherwise, when the auction is over, its over, and any further mailing from you to a losing bidder could be considered unsolicited (unless of course the winning bidder has defaulted on his bid).
How likely is it you would be turned into ebay? not likely, but if you were, they might not look kindly on your email.
See Glenda's examples, by the way, as yours falls right into one. The fact that they had previously bid on one of YOUR auctions doesn't, sad to say, give you any remaining right to contact them in the future, unless they give you permission.
posted on February 6, 2001 07:54:36 AM new
Well, I guess the general consenus is that my "thank you note" is spam. I must agree that eBay WOULD probably like to rule it as such. However, (and in spite of captainkirks end to this discussion) I still don't entirely buy into the assuption that this fit's the definition of "commercial". (although as I said, I'm sure eBay would "make it fit". This has nothing to do with what I'd LIKE to believe. It's simply what I think.
To me the biggest problem is the inclusion of my actual email address. I also agree that I could have simply added a comment to the listing revealing the reserve price. (which is actually what I usually do, IF I even use a reserve price, which I usually don't).
I don't tend to take this kind of unsolicited email as seriously as some folks and I think the delete key serves as the best remedy for it, but that's just me.
As far as my left handed golf balls, well I said they were rare, I sold them all. It wasn't my "spam" that did it though. It was the big L@@K I put in the title that did the trick. Yeah, I'm sure that was it.
posted on February 6, 2001 09:09:36 AM new
Oh, the *discussion* part of your question really was quite over several posts before mine - once you get about 6 consecutive "SPAM" answers in a row, there isn't really that much more to discuss! After that, we were just beating a dead horse. And in your case, more like trying to raise him from the dead!
Its more than just inclusion of your email address, by the way, that transforms your "sincere thank you note" into SPAM, since that can be gotten from ebay itself. Its the whole tone and structure of your note, practically BEGGING for a counteroffer.
PS - it ain't a "general" consensus in this case..its a complete, total, overwhelming one!
posted on February 6, 2001 10:26:41 AM newRay....Darn! Just when I was about to take up Golfing....I am left-footed..Does that count? I always start walking with left foot first...
******** Gosh Shosh!
posted on February 6, 2001 10:37:41 AM new
captainkirk,
tomatos/toMAWtos
Sosh,
I'm WAY ahead of you. I'll be putting up my first "two left golfing shoes" auctions real soon. I'm gonna throw in some left hand tees too! It'll be a lefty blow-out!!! This will be soooooooo big, I'm gonna put L@@K at both sides of my title!!
)...Plus, you really don't know for sure if the bidder might not REPORT you to EbAy... Time to start looking over one's shoulder...Paranoia is here to stay 
