posted on February 5, 2001 07:29:06 PM new
Hi, I don't post often, but I lerk here alot to see what all the buzz is. I need some facts and opinions please so I hope someone can help.
I did search ebay to try to confirm what I think but couldn't find anything.
I recently sold a jacket on ebay. Here is what the auction said:
"You are bidding on a VERY NICE NIKE WINDBREAKER TYPE JACKET, size 10/12. It is green/orange/purple. My son wore it, but it could be for a girl as well I suppose it's kind of unisex colors. Retail value $29.99 Thanks High bidder to pay $3.50 shipping."
My auction also includes my auction terms:
1. MY PREFFERED PAYMENT METHOD IS Ecount.com, but for your convience I also accept paypal.com, & money orders. I now also accept YAHOO PAY DIRECT. If you pay via Ecount.com it's TOTALLY FREE! Check them out!
2. I DO NOT ACCEPT PERSONAL CHECKS!
3. There is a $1 handling fee on all of my auctions UNLESS you pay via ecount.com in which case I will wave the handling fee.
4. High bidder will pay s/h as stated in auction
5. International bidders will have different shipping charges
6. Payment MUST be received within 10 days of the close of the auction, or item will be relisted, and FEEDBACK GIVEN International bidders MUST use some form of online payment to pay for their auction purchase, please keep this in mind when bidding!
7. Insurance is avaiable, and an additional charge at the buyer's request!
8. I try to describe all items honestly, and therefore all items are sold 'AS IS' and All sales are final!
We only ship priority mail at your request, unless specified in the auction!"
No I know many of you may or may not agree with my terms of sale, but I have them clearly stated and now she says the jacket had two stains (which I honestly did not notice) but I am taking her at her word that they are there....she is DEMANDING I return her payment (high bid + shipping) to her. She would return the jacket after I send her the refund.
She said she assumed the jacket was MINT since I did not mention stains. I explained to her I must have missed them, I was sorry and though it's not my policy to do so I would gladly refund her high bid if she returned the jacket to me. I also told her I felt we were both at fault. Her (for not asking questions when the auction did not state something important to her) and I (for not checking the jacket out closer)
She now says she will report me to ebay if I don't refund her the whole amount. I do not feel I've done anything wrong, and giving her the money back is no big deal it's less than $10, but to me it's the principle of it all. My terms are my terms, and when she bid she agreed to them. Am I wrong? Thanks! =0)
posted on February 5, 2001 07:36:05 PM new
I forgot to say any help you can give me would be GREAT! I can't find ebay's rules on the sellers TOS anywhere! Thanks again!
posted on February 5, 2001 07:42:23 PM new
HELP SOMEONE!!! I DON'T KNOW HOW TO RESPOND TO THIS WOMAN AFTER HER THREAT TO TURN ME INTO EBAY FOR NOTHING!
posted on February 5, 2001 07:42:48 PM new
Stains should be mentioned. It looks possible that you may have accidentally missed them. :> If so, the customer is justified in requesting a refund but she should have done it in the nicest possible way. Inform her she must, however, return the item first and then you will be happy to undo the transaction. Be calm, and unemotional in your response to her.
posted on February 5, 2001 07:51:43 PM new
If the item wasn't as described she deserves a refund and shipping charges despite "all sales are final". Her argument of "I would not have bid on the item if the stains had been disclosed" is strong. Yes, you will be out of pocket. Is it possible she may switch her stained but otherwise exact item for your's?
posted on February 5, 2001 07:53:04 PM new
You're not required to do anything, but why wouldn't you?
Tell her that as soon as she ships the jacket back to you, and you verify that there indeed are stains on it [and not recent ones] that you will refund both her high bid amount AND the shipping costs BOTH ways.
posted on February 5, 2001 07:59:03 PM new
Well I guess so much for TOS after all. I really didn't think there were any stains on this jacket. I feel that her saying "if you don't refund my total cost I will turn you into ebay is kinda like extortion" but I don't know all the legistics of it all. I just felt that she was being pushy and rude. To be honest if she had approached me in a nicer way I would have had no problem with it.
I just think the fact that she "assumed" the jacket was MINT is silly. I buy on ebay too, and I never assume anything. I ask questions if the auction doesn't say what I want to know. I feel I dropped the ball on this one by not saying NO STAINS, RIPS, ETC., but I still feel like she only deserves her bid price back.
I don't know her from Adam, who's to say she isn't lying about the stains? Or who's to say her son didn't make the stains? I don't know maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Thanks for your help! Does anyone know if ebay says anything on this type of thing?
posted on February 5, 2001 08:08:52 PM new
A couple questions:
If you hadn't seen the stains and said in your ad no stains and she emailed you about them would you have called her a liar?
Your terms of service are quite lengthy, I fail to see why you wouldn't list the condition with everything else you put in your ad? No offense to your terms intended.
If I say my figurine is in nice condition, does that mean it should be able to have chips? (Whether or not I see them) Or should every potential bidder email me and ask me if there are chips?
posted on February 5, 2001 08:09:54 PM new
I am mainly a buyer on Ebay and I have had my share of "bad" transactions. You stated that items were sold "as is" and it IS the buyers responsiblity to read everything on the auction listing. I personally think that you have been more than reasonable with refunding her high bid(less the shipping). If I was the buyer, I wouldn't have even expected that much especially with your disclaimer note. I would have expected maybe a partial refund or something. Have you tried that? Asked her if she would accept a partial refund, maybe 50/50? How much money was this item anyway?
posted on February 5, 2001 08:11:21 PM new
joelyfaith,
I would have to agree with "seyms"....it is possible you could have missed the stains...it has happened to me too. The bigger picture here though, is whether your TOS is worth defending over a $10.00 sale, and possibly resulting in a negative feedback. I know there is a lot of debate over TOS...Let me tell you this though...we offer a 100% Satisfaction Guarantee policy on every single auction, and absolutely feel it is the only way to do business. Not only do you gain the customers confidence, but you gain their bids too! Last year alone I gave a refund to a total of 9 people, mostly smaller amount items like clothing. The few refunds are a very little price to pay for putting the customers first. Thats just what we believe in...customers first. Send this message in your auction, WBN's, and post sale emails. As a show of good faith, I would send her the money ASAP, and then worry about when she sends the merchandise.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:11:35 PM new
Personally, I would not have bid on your auction - no insult intended. Stating an item to be in "VERY NICE" conditon, would not be good enough, or detailed enough for me.
"All Sales Are Final" or "As Is" has no place in on-line auctions - IMHO. The bidder cannot see, feel, touch, or smell them item being sold. It's just not fair to have such a staunch policy.
If you did make a mistake and miss some stains, and do the "right thing" now by refunding, you won't make the same mistake in the future; consequently, you will be a better seller. But, don't refund until the item is returned.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:12:36 PM new
I see your point, I'm not saying I was entirely right here, and not calling her a liar per say, just saying she could be. I guess she's thinking the same of me. It's a lousy $10 but to me TOS are important. And I have seen MUCH LONGER TOS in other auctions. I state only what I feel is needed. I do usually try to put exactly what is and is not a part of what I am selling, ie: rips, stains, chips, etc. Like I said I dropped the ball here!
posted on February 5, 2001 08:14:23 PM new
I see nothing wrong with her request.
If it is stained she has a right to be upset.
If I was her I would request shipping refunded both ways.
How can you state you were both wrong?
NOT MENTIONING A STAIN IS A MATERIAL DIFFERENCE.
I recently purchased a broach and received it with no pinback seller claimed I was wrong for not asking if it had a pin.
AS IS doesn't remove responsibility for acurate description.
I'd send refund, apology and tell her to keep jacket to save return postage.
It's all a matter of how much you value your feedback and your customers
Joe B
posted on February 5, 2001 08:19:09 PM new
Yes, you dropped the ball, so refund her $ and move on, she shouldn't have to pay for your mistake. Consider it a learning experience - we've all been there!
posted on February 5, 2001 08:19:38 PM new
I do value my feedback of course. I also understand what you have all said about the refund...but you know what is the point of TOS if people don't go by them?
A seller can sell my item to the next high bidder and post a neg feedback if their TOS say payment must be received within 7 days and my payment arrives on the 8th day. NOTHING I CAN DO..it was in their TOS.
But here it does not apply. Guess I'm learning a "sellers leason" I will give her the refund I guess, but I am not happy about it. Guess i don't have to be LOL
Thanks for all your help, that's what I like about the posts on this board...HONEST PEOPLE, TELLING IT LIKE THEY SEE IT! Thank you!
posted on February 5, 2001 08:24:38 PM new
I guarantee everything except what I list as-is. I spell it out clearly in the listing in bold that this item is not covered by my guarantee and is sold as-is and to consider that in your bid.
I've never had someone come back on an as-is listing to request a refund but I would probably refund the selling price...but definitely not the shipping. I figure the as-is means just that...what you get is what you get and that bids should reflect that risk.
I would recommend you state all bids final more prominently in your T&Cs if that is what you want. Your bids will be hurt by it though.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:25:37 PM new
Boy...Where are all you sellers??? I want to bid on your auctions. I have returned a few things but NEVER, EVER did I get a shipping refund NEVER! I guess I was the shmoe because I returned items that were chipped and just plain junk and not as described and the description definitely did NOT say "as is". May all Ebay sellers be like all of you on this message board I learned a lesson here.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:27:41 PM new
joelyfaith,
I have deleted your post with the link to the auction. There are specific requirements in the CG's for posting identifying information, such as your buyers user I.D.
If you wish to post the pics here, you can do that otherwise, you must follow the CG's for inviting your buyer.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:29:35 PM new
I had something like that happen on a Disney placemat I sold for 5.99 that was from 1963, it had some water stains on it, I described them in detail, I took close up pics of the stains. Yet when the buyer got the placemat she was horrified to see it had stains on it! After she wrote me I told her I would be happy to refund all of her money upon return (including shpping both ways). She agreed. I then told her to keep the placemat as a token of my sincere apologies for the misunderstanding and immediately refunded her in full. Got a glowing feedback out of that one, and saved myself 3.50 in return shipping fees.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:30:21 PM new
I think taht if you are going to say ALL SALES FINAL, then you are obligated to descibe the item as fully as possible.
You should go over it with a fine tooth comb and list every defect you can find.
This gives the buyer confidence that you have checked the item well and they might be more inclined to bid.
And when the complaint arrives, if you are lucky, it was listed and they just didnt read the description!
I, too, offer a return guarantee. But I only had 2 returns out of about 1000 items last year. One was my fault; I called a Packard a Chevy. The other was buyer's remorse.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:37:49 PM new
I do agree that buyers should be held to the sellers TOS, however, if the description of the item is inaccurate, the seller should make it right without a fuss, regardless of TOS. Afterall, it is misrepresentation to not accurately describe an item.
I very rarely sell anything "as-is"; I think one time in the last 2 years. A few times I have had buyers feel that I have misrepresented an item and I have always refunded bid + shipping both ways. The only time I didn't was someone who did not read the ad, I offered for her to return the item and I would refund her bid price only or she could keep it and I gave her permission to use my picture and text from the auction to submit her own auction. She declined and left me positive feedback.
I just feel you need to make your mistake right, afterall, you admitted you dropped the ball. But I would not refund until you receive the item back.
posted on February 5, 2001 08:44:07 PM new
If the item was not as described, then you owe her a refund, with shipping both ways, along with a profuse apology. Clearly, if there were stains, you FAILED to "describe all items honestly".
If you had described the item "honestly", there would be no need for anyone to email you with questions!! You advertised that you were selling "a very nice jacket". Why would anyone think there were stains? Why would they email you to ask, "Are you sure there are no stains?"
Frankly, your auction terms would send me running; I never bid on anything that says "all sales final". All sales are not final when I receive an item that is damaged because the seller packed it in a paper bag or when it was described as "very nice" and shows up "stained".
posted on February 5, 2001 08:57:03 PM new
...stating that you are selling 'as is' is not a license to misdescribe the item, by omission or otherwise....
posted on February 5, 2001 09:33:16 PM new
I can only reiterate what others have so eloquently stated. I know it's no fun to have to accept a return, but you should be willing to do so promptly, cheerfully and gracefully and to include shipping both ways. There should be no quibbling because the buyer's etiquette didn't meet your standards. Regardless of terms of service stated, I as a buyer expect full disclosure of any potential flaws.
You do have every right to expect the item to be returned first. You can reply to her consistently, but firmly -- "When the item has been returned, I will gladly issue a full refund."
posted on February 5, 2001 09:34:26 PM new
I think TOS is something you can hang yourself with if your not careful.
Do as Reddeer suggests.
Treat a customer like a person you'd like to do business with again. But protect yourself. No reasonable person would want their money back before shipping the return.
If I hit your auction I'd have been leary unless I had some great front and back pix.
Also your "as is" section is #8, kind of far from the top.
Most sellers, I email all of them before bidding, with "AS IS" will allow for poorly described items or missed "flaws."
posted on February 5, 2001 10:00:42 PM new
My feelings on this subject is:
Return the $$ and go on, thats the way it should be when you are running a "business"
You need to keep your customers happy.
Right or wrong here, it dosn't matter.
What matters is wanting to do the right thing. When I first started on Ebay I listed
all my policys, thinking it would make life easer, We'll now 2 1/2yrs later I only say, Checks or Money Orders Accepted. Why did I change it, I changed it because nobody reads what you write anyway.
I run my business with my customer as #1 thats my priority, Keeping my customer happy.
I had an Antique Store for 20yrs, and the best way to respond to a customer is, politly, and carmly, "What Ever would make you happy, let me know." Right or Wrong my customers are always right,
Since it is a small $$ amount I would refund her total money she paid and tell her keep the jacket. I would also leave her positive feedback.
I have only had 6 returns in 2 1/2 yrs and
I return the bid price and one way shipping on some, and on others I return bid price and shipping both ways. It all depends how they aproach me, if there pleasent I return all the money. Either way I make sure my customer is happy which ever way I do it.
In one case I offered 1/2 the money back and they could keep the item, sometimes it's cheaper that way.
Just my feelings!!!!!!!
posted on February 6, 2001 05:50:33 AM new
I agree with most that is: No Item Return - No Refund!
I've only had a couple of these types in years, but I have explained, that Sears doesn't give you a refund without a product return and I don't either.
PLUS, I am ALWAYS VERY suspicious of anyone who wants a refund and won't return the item; makes me wonder if there is actually a problem with the item.
I am sure you missed the stains, but if I received a jacket I purchased on eBay and it has stains on it that were not mentioned, I would be upset also. "All Sales Final" or not, your description did not state that the jacket was stained and, to be honest, I took it from your description that the jacket was in nearly new condition. Maybe that's just me.
You didn't see the stains and she wasn't aware of them. You should refund her money only after you have the jacket back.
As with a mail order company, you would not get a refund until you had shipped back the item you wanted to return. Certainly she can understand if you apply the same rules to her refund.
If so, the customer is justified in requesting a refund but she should have done it in the nicest possible way. Inform her she must, however, return the item first and then you will be happy to undo the transaction. Be calm, and unemotional in your response to her.
I learned a lesson here.