posted on April 3, 2001 05:42:32 PM
Have reported numerous copyrite violations to eBay and eBay does nothing. Ebay has categories full of these bootleg cds and ignores it even when it is reported to them. It hurts sellers trying to sell legitimate items. If it was my copyrites being violated I would sue eBay.
posted on April 3, 2001 05:46:49 PM
If it were your copyrights being infringed upon, you could sign up as a VeRO member and the auctions would be ended immediately.
posted on April 3, 2001 07:52:50 PM
I think you mean copyrights...they definitely don't ignore them if the complaint comes from VEROs. I like to buy Beatles/solo Beatles stuff and those have a notoriously high kill rate. Bruce Springsteen is also said to have that, and of course Jeff Buckley (whom I had never heard of before eBay). The Grateful Dead, OTOH, probably does not have a high kill rate.
Third-party complaints probably do get mostly ignored because of past abuses and sometimes questionable motives. You would have a much easier case saying your business is harmed if it was "pirated" material (which can compete directly with your product) than if it was bootlegs. Bootlegs supplement existing product rather than supplant it; anyone who would pay $30 for an inferior quality Beatles live record, for example, is a pretty safe bet to have all the official live product already.
posted on April 3, 2001 08:40:42 PM
eBay policy is basically.
"Hi. I am a big corporation."
How can we appease you?!!?!
"Hi. I am an individual."
[Insert your name here] thanks for writing [insert form letter saying we cannot do anything because of [insert reference to policy that may or may not fit your email]
posted on April 3, 2001 09:15:42 PM
"Third-party complaints probably do get mostly ignored because of past abuses and sometimes questionable motives."
This is a good point. I've had a couple of legitimate items deleted because they were reported as "pirated", so I can understand why eBay would not automatically delete every item reported by a third party.
Its not a big issue with me, but the items I reported were obvious (one seller states in the description that he compiled this cd himself). Whatever, I'm as concerned with eBay as I am AOL. I pretty much avoid them and their users whenever possible.
posted on April 4, 2001 03:39:44 AM
Ploughman: I, too, had 2 Beatles as solo promo albums knocked right out from under me at ebay ... really bummed me out, because I paid a lot at a local auction to get them ,... as I went to read their no-no-to-copyrighted reasons and details to see which one applied to my albums, it made me realize that even the auctioneer I bought it from was actually 'not allowed' to auction it off! ... i'dathunk licensed auctioneers would know that ...
--- Marcia in Ohio
[email protected]
posted on April 4, 2001 06:42:43 AM
I am not trying to start a debate or anything, but why would anyone care if someone put up "promo's", "Bootlegs" etc.?
Why would anyone even bother to report it? Don't we all have enough to do without searching for other peoples mistakes?
I guess I understand if the band or company has a problem with it, that is financial.. But what motivates uninvolved people to get involved? Boots and Promos do not hurt anyone, they are not bombs, drugs, guns, etc.. So why bother?
Again, not trying to start a debate, just looking to understand. Is it a competition thing?
posted on April 4, 2001 08:13:41 AM
(it's been awhile for me at AW, but the issue of bootleg video is something I need to speak on!!)
kyms ... I'll tell you why it's a problem, not so much for the promo tapes, but for the bootlegs. And, it's not a "mistake" when someone lists all 22 episodes of "The West Wing" on eBay - it's pure out-and-out criminal activity and the sellers KNOW this.
1. It affects the price of commercially released product. For example, everytime someone sells an illegal copy of "The Sopranos" on eBay or Yahoo, it takes a sale away from HBO. The cost to produce the tapes by HBO doesn't change, so guess how they make their profit. You may not agree with Jack Valenti, but he is right - this hurts all fans!
2. Secondly, and even more important, when the bootlegger gets caught they are required to provide personal information about their sources and all persons who purchased the bootlegs (names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.). The purchasers are then contacted and ordered to turn in their illegal tapes to the copyright owners' lawyers. They do not get reimbursed. The 2nd time the bootlegger gets caught, s/he loses all of his/her tapes and recording/duplicating equipment. 3rd time = heavy fine and possibly jail.
3. Lastly, most of the time the buyer gets crap multi-generation copies dubbed at EP - certainly not what s/he thought s/he was bidding on. There is nothing the buyer can do except learn a hard lesson.
I know that this is going to generate a lot of "RB, you're full of crap, this is small stuff and doesn't hurt anyone, and the studios are greedy and gestapo-like yada, yada, yada" responses, but I can tell you from personal experience that this DOES happen. I have on file copies of several letters that have been written to bootleggers by law firms and they aren't pretty. I personally know (knew?) 2 people who have been busted - one of them lost his entire collection of tapes and some very high tech duplicating equipment.
I am also very proud to say that during the past 9 months, I have been personally responsible for "eliminating" 3 bootleggers from eBay and Yahoo, and I will continue my vendetta.
wrt VeRO ... that is nothing but a money grab. ANYONE can register as a VeRO member and cause eBay havoc. I, for example, have claimed the rights to everything that starts with "H" so if your listing meets this criteria, watch out
posted on April 6, 2001 08:28:38 AM
I agree with RB. Bootleg copies of music, software, books, sewing patterns and other goods hurts the true owner of the original. While some people have no qualms about buying illegal copies of stuff, some buyers will not knowingly buy stolen items. To either knowingly buy or sell stolen items is wrong, and copying someones work without permission or payment to them is stealing. Copyrights do expire so not every copy of printed material is illegal.
posted on April 6, 2001 08:42:05 AM
Look - here is how the intellectual property thing works, including VERO.
Only the owner or agent may make a sworn infringement claim through the Internet operator, and the operator then must take the offending item down, BUT - the person who posted the item may respond with a sworn statement that to the best of his/her belief the material does not infringe. NOW, within 10 days of the poster's response, the owner/agent must final in Federal Court in the OFFENDERS jurisdiction for an injunction to keep the material from being re-posted.
If within those 10 days the owner/agent does not file for injunction and show proof of same to the Internet operator, the poster may re-post the material.
If you got your item pulled and to the best of your belief you have a right to sell the item, file the response and force the other party to initiate court action.
"If you got your item pulled and to the best of your belief you have a right to sell the item, file the response and force the other party to initiate court action."
For an $20.00 item this seems like overkill. The only people who would benefit in a court action are the lawyers. Besides, legit VeRO members are probably, for the most part, large organizations like Microsoft, Revlon, Amway etc. - they've got tons of dough in their legal account budget and can drag the poor seller through court until that seller is broke or dead.
I believe what eBay and the other auction sites need to do is become a little more pro-active in what goes on at their sites. The "we're just a venue and we can't police our site" excuse is getting pretty weak. Pawn shop owners used to use this one until the law got tough.
In the case of what appears to be an infringing item, whether reported by a VeRO member or any other member, even those who just want to throw a little dung at the wall, eBay needs to deal with this themselves rather than telling the reporter to notify the copyright owner. All eBay would have to do in these cases is send a simple email to the seller (a form would work very nicely) making this statement:
"This is to advise you that no person is authorized to reproduce, transmit, copy, or otherwise utilize the "XXXXXXX" Copyrights and Trademarks without the express written permission of the copyright owner.
followed by this question:
"Do you have such express written permission for your listing, and are you willing to provide a copy of this to your purchasers?
They could also include some further information along these lines:
"The reproduction, transmission and/or distribution by you of any unauthorized and/or derivative copies of the "XXXXX" Copyrights and Trademarks may constitute copyright infringement. You may be required to provide all information pertaining to the source from which you obtained these videotapes/CD's/whatever, and all information pertaining to any purchasers, including each purchaser’s name, address, telephone number and email address."
The seller should be given a reasonable amount of time to respond, or end their own auction, say 24 hours. If the seller does not respond, eBay should end the auction immediately and suspend the seller.
Ebay will get all kinds of "gee, we didn't know this was illegal" nonsense responses, but let's face it ... these sellers KNOW they are selling stolen goods, and if they don't, they should heed eBay's advice within the 24 hour "grace period", plead ignorance and end their own auction before the time limit is up.
It would take a little work (and caring) on eBay's part though, and for that reason, it will probably never happen
posted on April 6, 2001 09:37:57 AM
RB- What eBay does do regarding infringing material is follow the Federal law.
First and foremost, only the owner/agent may make the sworn complaint of infringement. This makes sense. If an ISP had to act on anyone's complaint, a group of people could pull all content down from a site, or in the alternative, the ISP wouldn't know whose claim to act on and be hamstrung to do anything or prevent ongoing damage to the owner.
The cost benefit in litagation for a $20 item runs both ways. However, it is unlikely that the other party will file unless you're a huge bootlegger. The owner loses to the court of public opinion also.
However, if you have a legal right to sell the item, then the litigation would cease early in the case.
The bottom line is, if you have a right to sell the item, call the bully's bluff.I just read an article about a guy in the UK considering suit against Microsoft for having his auction pulled. He was selling a perfectly legal piece of MS software, and he had the right to sell it too.
posted on April 6, 2001 11:06:01 AM
"If an ISP had to act on anyone's complaint, a group of people could pull all content down from a site, or in the alternative, the ISP wouldn't know whose claim to act on and be hamstrung to do anything or prevent ongoing damage to the owner."
My suggestion would not permit a person or group of people from pulling down anything
What is the problem with having some SafeHarbour drone at eBay send out the questionarres like I suggested above? We all know that they are very capable of doing this The auction would run along unmolested until the seller, either feeling guilty or knowing that RB is after him, ends it, or s/he hasn't responded within the time limit.
The whole point of this is that a seller should be responsible for knowing what sh/e is selling. If potential bidders can ask a question about an item ("is that a genuine Dresdan statue?", why can't eBay?
Unfortunately, when it comes to bootleg videotapes and CDs, most potential bidders don't even think of asking this question until they get the item and realise it is not what they expected.
Maybe a better way would be a checkbox type of thing that requires all persons selling bootleggable items to indicate (in their seller's preferences maybe?) that they have the copyright owner's OK to sell the item. Then it would be a matter of educating the buyers - if you don't see this box ticked, you could be contributing to a criminal activity (buying stolen merchandise) and you could be getting junk copies. If a seller ticked this "Yes" and it turns out s/he didn't have the OK, then indefinite suspension should be a no-brainer.
When eBay passes their buck of responsibility on to the owner of the copyright, they know damn well that by the time the owner can respond (these guys are busy with other things!), the auction has probably ended. Thus, they get to keep the listing fees and a cut of the selling price.
"The cost benefit in litagation for a $20 item runs both ways. However, it is unlikely that the other party will file unless you're a huge bootlegger."
One particular seller on Yahoo has sold 19 sets of a current tv series at an average price of $50.00 US per set plus shipping over the last month or two and has another 5 sets listed right now. When does it become "huge"?
"The bottom line is, if you have a right to sell the item, call the bully's bluff."
I agree with that 100%.
"I just read an article about a guy in the UK considering suit against Microsoft for having his auction pulled. He was selling a perfectly legal piece of MS software, and he had the right to sell it too."
How far do you think that guy will get, and do you think Microsoft cares even a little bit about "public opinion"?
Anyway, good luck with your auctions and thanks for talking to me
posted on April 6, 2001 04:30:15 PM
Well it's time to step and comment on a few of these statements... from someone that has sold more than a few bootlegs in his day.. Mostly Music stuff, never had much interest in TV/Movie material.
"1. It affects the price of commercially released product. For example, everytime someone sells an illegal copy of "The Sopranos" on eBay or Yahoo, it takes a sale away from HBO. The cost to produce the tapes by HBO doesn't change, so guess how they make their profit. You may not agree with Jack Valenti, but he is right - this hurts all fans!"
Well that maybe true for material that has been released... But a ton of bootlegs remain to be material that is NOT released, and may never be. If the company/artist decides not to release something.. (or maybe they don't even have the peice in question) they loose NOTHING. I have every Pearl Jam cd, and if I buy a bootleg cd/video PJ is NOT loosing any $$.. When I bought some Sopranos on VHS last year (don't have HBO) it did not stop me for a second from buying the series one on DVD. And when they rest come out, I'll be there.
2. Secondly, and even more important, when the bootlegger gets caught they are required to provide personal information about their sources and all persons who purchased the bootlegs (names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.). The purchasers are then contacted and ordered to turn in their illegal tapes to the copyright owners' lawyers. They do not get reimbursed. The 2nd time the bootlegger gets caught, s/he loses all of his/her tapes and recording/duplicating equipment. 3rd time = heavy fine and possibly jail.
Mostly BS. The chances of a small time bootlegger getting caught is next to nil. I've known collectors around the world for 15 years... and two got caught. Basically being very stupid and open. But this one two thing certainly doesn't happen often. If someone gets a CAD letter.. (I've received a couple myself) you ignore it.. and stop selling that title or artist.
3. Lastly, most of the time the buyer gets crap multi-generation copies dubbed at EP - certainly not what s/he thought s/he was bidding on. There is
nothing the buyer can do except learn a hard lesson.
The old standard line.. sure there are some #*!@ dealers out there.. but there are many, many good ones as well. Many understand "tape generation", and only deal with Masters or first gens. I have some boot cds that simply blow offical stuff out of the water. So to claim that "most" of the time you will get crap, is well, wrong.
, why can't eBay?