I sell under one id, buy under another id. Since I sell I know how to package and ship antique china and how much to charge.
A few days ago I won eight different auctions under one seller. Each auction was for one plate. The auction text did not state anything about handling charges. Nor did the auction text state how much the shipping costs would be.
I contact the seller with my info and request that the seller use bubble wrap and packaging peanuts since the plates are 19th century. I should add that the seller started the auction at one dollar, used photos that were about one inch by one inch and did not describe the backmarks correctly. So I got the plates real cheap.
This morning I hear back from the seller who says shipping, handling and insurance for the eight plates will be $35. Huh? The cost of all eight plates is under $100. The plates when packaged in one box will weigh around ten pounds at most. Shipping and insurance would be no more than $20.
So there is a handling fee of $15.00? Isn't that agaist eBay rules? Does anyone know where that is stated?
I wrote the seller a perplexed email, stating I didn't understand the charges. Can it be that because I asked for bubble wrap and packaging peanuts the seller is charging me for a whole roll of wrap and an entire bag of peanuts?
This has never happened to me before. The seller has about 5 feedbacks is all. I am really dumbfounded by this situation. If you have any suggestions I will be appreciative.
posted on April 15, 2001 10:47:31 AM new
Go back to the auctions. If on eBay's default shipping settings, the seller picked buyer pays fixed shipping charges or Please see description for shipping charges, you're screwed, you should've asked first. If the seller picked Buyer pays actual shipping charges, you might have a case.
------------------------------------------------------------ Conform or be cast out.
posted on April 15, 2001 10:53:32 AM new
They might be charging extra because you told them how to ship it. Some people are offended at being told how to handle their items.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:10:59 AM new
darcyw: I don't charge a handling fee myself... but if you're upset about the $15.00 handling fee for the Vintage Plates... perhaps it will make you feel better to visit eBay Premier and see what buyers pay in the way of "Buyers Premiums" AND "Handling Fees".
ALSO... if you're STILL feeling a little bent out of shape regarding handling fees... vitit eBays CoBranded DISNEY site to find TERM OF SALE that are SO rediculous that it's LAUGHABLE!
I think that buyers should NOT EXPECT sellers to be willing to ship WITHOUT a Handling fee... not any more than we would expect ANY OTHER internet, television or mail order purchase to not include a Handling Fee.
Although I think Sellers should include ALL information within their listings... I also strongly believe that if a handling fee (of ANY amount) is off-putting for BUYERS, then BUYERS should be responsible for requesting ALL Terms Of Sale (including any shipping and handling fees) that might not be included in the listing (or advertisement) BEFORE agreeing to the purchase.
Sellers that DON'T charge a Handling Fee are perhaps being overly generous in todays online market.... but just because many of us still DON'T charge Handling... doesn't mean that the ones who do charge are ripping anyone off. They're in BUSINESS... just like anyone else, and they have the right to charge reasonable Shipping & Handling.
Like I said... to get a better idea of what "Reasonable" might be... visit eBay Premier and the Disney Auctions!
AND... wait until your package of Vintage Dishes arrives to see what extra care the seller might have put into HANDLING before getting too upset at the $15.00 fee.
Least, that's what I think.
- Dottie
[ edited by dottie on Apr 15, 2001 11:12 AM ]
posted on April 15, 2001 11:17:00 AM new
Could be that she is using a packaging service.
Happened to me just last week.
Got an item that should not have been more than $18.00 at MOST to ship. I hit BIN since it was a fantastic deal. Got the EOA and shipping was $35.00. OUCH!!
Still a great deal, though. But, had I known she was using a packing service, I probably would have passed.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:22:10 AM new
The golden rule is ask first.But if there was no mention of a handling charge, I would not pay it. How where they going to ship it? Best if you ask them.
A lot of sellers make up for a low starting bid by sticking it to you with a high handling charge. So much for the good deal.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:26:19 AM new
What it all boils down to is that you should have contacted the seller to learn the shipping charges before you placed your bids. As it was, you state that you got a "great deal" on these plates as the seller is inexperienced--now you just aren't getting quite such a good deal as you thought.
You might get the buyer to come down a bit by *nicely* enquiring about combined shipping or using a different form of shipping.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:41:46 AM new
If you bid on an auction, the shipping and handling charges are NOT too high, even if you pay $100 on a $10 item. After all, you agreed to those charges by bidding. Surely you would NEVER bid on an item if you thought the shipping and handling charges were excessive. No one would. To do so would be completely illogical.
Were the shipping handling charges stated in the ad? If so, you knew about them in advance but bid anyway. Therefore by definition they weren't too high. Otherwise you wouldn't have bid.
Were the shipping and handling charges NOT stated in the ad? Were they expressed in some generic term like "buyer to pay shipping"? If so, they STILL weren't too high because you agreed to bid without knowing how much the charges would be. By not asking, you were in effect willing to pay whatever the seller required.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:47:39 AM new
"you should've asked first"
You should not have to ask. AVOID THESE SELLERS!!! This is one of the most common scams on eBay.
In this particular case, if the seller did not state a handling charge, you are only obligated to pay the exact shipping costs. And I would not be shy about letting the seller know
The seller isn't obligated to use bubble pack but its his responsibility to package the plates so they are not damaged during shipping.
The only conflicts I've had on eBay were all concerning shipping/handling/insurance. I had one seller who refused to insure, when I stated I was adding 85 cents for postal insurance. His only explanation was, "I don't do that". He left negative feedback for nonpayment. I left negative feedback for a mentally challanged seller.
I avoid all auctions that do not specifically state the shipping costs, even including descriptions that state "Buyer pays exact shipping".
If the seller knows the "exact shipping", he should state what it is. If he doesn't know the "exact shipping", he is going to estimate the cost and add it to the final bid price before he ships. He should state this "estimate" in the description not in his email after the auction is over.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:57:59 AM newSasoony: For the most part I agree. Sellers *should* put the shipping costs in their TOS. BUT: for some items, a seller must wait to find out where the thing is to be shipped as that affects the shipping costs.
In any case, a buyer happening upon an auction in which the shipping price is *not* stated is foolish to bid without asking the seller for shipping costs first.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:59:22 AM new
Last week I won an auction for a 2" x 3" wallpocket, very light weight, thin pottery. My price was $26.35; and no, I didn't ask about shipping charges--didn't think to! When I inquired as to the final with shipping, the buyer said to "make it $34.00." I know it can be shipped for $3.50 priority plus $1.10 for insurance--that still leaves $3 for "handling," I guess. I asked him to break down the charges for me, since $7.65 to ship that small item seemed excessive. He came down to $32.00. Still arbitrary, and I think he was just lazy and didn't want to do the math.
Reinforced for me that I need to inquire on all shipping charges before I bid! Live and learn. Dave Ramsey, the financial guru, would say I just paid my tuition, my "stupid tax."
posted on April 15, 2001 12:05:37 PM new
The box says, "Buyer Pays Actual Shipping Costs".
It doesn't say, "Buyer Pays Actual USPS/UPS/FED EX Mailing Costs".
Even if this box is checks, IMHO, the terminology leaves a lot to the imagination, or, in this case, assumption.
Now, if I used this terminology in my auction, I would ship it for the actual amount I paid USPS or any other mailer. However, I can see where the terminology is sufficiently detailed to mean ONLY that.
posted on April 15, 2001 12:21:31 PM new
Sounds to me that there will be alot of care, effort and supplies to insure your plates arrive in one piece. I don't think you are being excessively charged at all.
posted on April 15, 2001 12:30:06 PM new
Well here is what the seller's auction says:
please bid with confidence,as we want our customers to be satisfied.please feel free to e-mail us,if you have any guestions.if paying thur paypal,debit card only.all payment is due in 3 days.if paying by money order,cashiers check or personal check,all payment is due in 8 days.If payment is not recieved on a timely manner,we reserve the right to canel the bid without notice for nonpayment and you will not be notified.this is a auction,and all sales are final.deadbeat bidders will be rated accordingly.ask questions before bidding.check out our other auctions and save on shipping.happy bidding!!! using paypal, debit cards only!!!
As I said, the seller only has about five feedbacks. That is why I asked for bubble wrap. When new sellers package multiple items with newspaper I get a box of broken dishes.
The seller states: "check out our other auctions and save on shipping." There is no mention of handling charges. I am pretty certain eBay has a rule that you have to state in the auction that there will be a handling charge and how much.
I don't even mind paying a reasonable handling fee, say five dollars.
For the people who said I got a good deal, the seller started the auctions at one dollar, described the backmarks incorrectly, hardly gave any description text, text was full of misspellings and the photos were only about one to two inches square. The plates would have sold for more if the seller had done their job, identified the maker correctly, placed the auctions in the correct category, used a better description and given decent photos. As it was, I recognized the plates as being part of a tea set I am building so I bid and won. Don't know why I should be punished for the seller's incompetence.
I sent the seller an inquiry, haven't heard back. I will probably put a check in Monday's mail because I want the plates and I bid way more than I won them for. But charging a large handling fee is just fee avoidance and against eBay rules, makes me annoyed to be taken advantage of that way.
posted on April 15, 2001 12:34:59 PM new
I no longer bother to e-mail sellers who do not disclose their shipping charges. I used to do it, but a lot of them would not respond. Of those that would respond, a good number said they couldn't give a shipping figure until after the auction was over. Then there were those who gave me a shipping figure before the auction ended, only to specify a higher amount after the auction.
I think a large percentage of these sellers who don't give shipping charges in the auction listing are too scatterbrained or disorganized to figure it out ahead of time, and they should be avoided altogether.
posted on April 15, 2001 12:39:21 PM new
Another thing, I've shipped out lots of boxes of china to my customers over the years. I know what the cost of bubble wrap, packaging peanuts and a nice box are. What the costs are not is $15.00.
Shipping and insurance from the seller's zip code to my zip code is $17.00. The seller wants $35.00. If I charged $35.00 to my customers I would lose my repeat customer base just like that.
Packaging eight plates is a very simple task. You take a length of bubble wrap. You take a set of four plates and run the bubble wrap around each plate and fasten the stack together. You do the same for the next stack of four plates. You put the two bundles in a box, fill up the box with packaging peanuts, put in a packing slip, secure the package, put the shipping label on and put tape over the label. The whole project only takes about five minutes. The packaging supplies cost no more than three dollars. The box weighs no more than ten pounds. I can see paying the seller $20 to $25, but not $35.00. The charges are excessive.
posted on April 15, 2001 12:52:48 PM new
If I was having vintage plates shipped to me, I'd pay the $15 handling as long as they are packaged very well. Why risk a having a chipped plated just to save a few bucks? Can he do it for less? Probably. But he may take pride in doing an extra well job and feels like he should be compensated. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you realize the time it takes to carefully package each plate?
I noticed that you said you got them at a nice price. That's how it always is, the people who pay $2 for a $10 item complain on shipping. This is one agument for sellers to have higher start bids to keep the cheapos away.
Sounds to me like you requested these plates be packed a certain way, correct?
Have you ever considered that this "new" seller has no idea what those packing materials cost, or that perhaps where they live those packing items are far more expensive than where you live?
Have you offered to split the difference between what they want and what you know the S/H to be from your experience as a seller? You mentioned a 20-25.00 figure...
If you feel you're being taken or having to compensate the seller for a low selling price through a handling charge, I'd cancel the purchase; let the feedback fall where it may ...
Then keep your eyes peeled for a re-list and bid using your other ID, mindful of the charges you know to be....
It sounds like you want these items but on terms you feel to be fair.....
Maybe shifting your focus from the details to the overall cost might level the playing field somewhat...
posted on April 15, 2001 01:44:16 PM newdarcyw: your cut-and-paste shows the seller asks *twice* for prospective bidders to email them with any questions. It's not their fault you didn't do so. So who showed the "incompetence" here? Have you tried dickering nicely with this seller on the shipping cost?
posted on April 15, 2001 01:48:07 PM new
Darcy: I understand your frustrateion (don't get me wrong)... but the problem here is that YOU do things in YOUR business one way... and this New Seller does things in HIS business HIS way.
You make a good point that if you charged your winners those shipping fees (that YOU feel are excessive) that you wouldn't have repeat customers.
O.K.
So you won't be a repeat customer of this particular seller. That's YOUR choice - not his... but the S&H fees are HIS business... not yours.
Whether we agree with this sellers TOS or not - is irrelevent at this point, I belive. When you placed your bid... you agreed to HIS terms of sale - including shipping schedule and handling fees. These issues are best dealt with BEFORE placing a bid.
Please understand that I DO SEE YOUR SIDE of this. But in reality, $15.00 for the careful handling of Vintage Plates (that you have admitted are worth more than you paid for them) does NOT seem "excessive" or a case of "fee avoidance".
Folks buying in the eBay Premier listings often pay way more. Folks buying in the Disney Auctions often pay way more. (additionaly Disney shipping schedule is SLOW and doesn't allow for refunds or returns under any circumstances) Folks buying from Home Shopping Networks often pay way more.
Try not to let this incident spoil your excitement about finding the pieces that you desired enough to bid on and win!
posted on April 15, 2001 01:53:21 PM new
I am sending the seller a check for the full amount they requested. It is a new seller and it isn't worth getting into a fuss over. I thought someone on this board might know the url to where eBay says you have to state handling charges in the auction text or you cannot charge them.
However, quickdraw29, regarding your post, I rarely question a seller's shipping charges. The seller has bad sales technique, that is all. Seller's who put up auctions for one dollar and don't do their research on what they are selling are sellers who possess very little skills. Then when the items don't sell for much, to try to make up the difference with excessive charges is a bit too much.
What I don't understand is why such sellers are so naive. In my area of antique china in which I buy and sell, those of us who buy and sell regularly know each other. We all belong to a nonprofit collectors' group and our membership list is in the thousands. We meet once a year at a conference. We are no different than other groups of collectors and that is we share our bad seller and bad buyer lists with each other. So when a seller complains that they aren't getting any bids, the answer is simple. The seller gives poor customer service and the buyers share that information among each other and won't bid on that seller's auctions anymore.
In my category we designate a bad seller as one who: 1)packages poorly, 2)doesn't mention the flaws, pariculary wear to the gold trim, 3)sends the dish covered in grime and food filth, 4)doesn't communicate and 5)who overcharges on shipping by more than 10%.
posted on April 15, 2001 02:00:43 PM new
Why not wait until your package arrives before stating this seller is overcharging. If the actual cost of postage is way under what you pay for it--*then* you can say they are overcharging in an effort to recoup $ lost by selling low. You might find, though, that this seller either packs to withstand a nuclear blast or, as someone else suggested, uses a packing service and that they are making no profit in the shipping.
I've never seen a section on ebay which says you have to state your handling charges in your text or you can't charge them, especially since the seller wasn't stating ANY shipping charges in there.
The only time I've seen ebay discuss handling fees is with regard to fee avoidance...low starting price but unreasonably high shipping or handling fees.
Actually, you don't really know what the seller's original shipping charges were since you emailed him/her with your preferences before they had a chance to tell you.
And considering ebay "recommends" sellers use MailBoxesEtc (one of their "partners", they obviously don't have a clue what a really high price for shipping can be.
I'm sorry this happened & it does sounds like a lot but I think most all of us here have had to eat one or two of these along the way. I know I did something like this a couple weeks ago & am still kicking myself!
posted on April 15, 2001 02:27:34 PM new
It just occurred to me that I received a package of eight plates in the mail yesterday. Same size plate, same weight, 19th century. The seller wrapped in bubble wrap, used packaging peanuts and double boxed. This seller was not in the same zip code but in the same region of the country as this other seller. I bought these eight plates for about $300 so insurance would be higher. I went and found the outside box and the post office tape on the outside says shipping was $16.55.
I am sure I will be happy when I get this set of plates and will have forgotten how much I was charged.
I buy a lot on eBay and if I don't say bubble wrap the seller wraps in newspaper or something odd and the dishes arrive broken. Last week I got a box, an 1876 gravy boat and underplate, and the two pieces had been wrapped in a plastic baggie with rubber band around each piece, then stuffed in a number four box with more grocery store baggies filling the cracks. Yes, both pieces were smashed to smithereens. Another box was some bird figurines. The seller wrapped each figurine in newspaper, put cumpled newspaper in between. The figurines all bumped against each other during transit and each and every one was broken into tiny little pieces.
The other buyers I know, they are having the same frustrations, sellers who can't package and so they receive broken dishes. Almost everyone I know now requests bubble wrap in their response to the seller's EOA email. Some buyers send urls to the sites that instruct sellers how to package antique china. Other sellers have form letters that they print out when they send in their payment, giving exact instructions on how to package. I don't go that far, I just say please use bubble wrap versus other wrapping materials.
posted on April 15, 2001 02:42:26 PM new
[1] "I know how to package and ship antique china and how much to charge." Hey, it's free enterprise, you cannot mandate other seller's charges. After all, if yours are so reasonable, you already have a competitive advantage. In the case of "conformity" you would loose said advantage. Thus...
[2] "...auction text did not state anything about handling charges. Nor did the auction text state how much the shipping costs would be." It was your responsibility to write the seller before bidding to inquire charges and/or shipping methods. By not doing so, by default, you have agreed to unknown terms.
[3] "I contact the seller with my info and request that the seller use bubble wrap and packaging peanuts since the plates are 19th century." You asked for "bubble wrap and packaging peanuts," that is a special request. It was perhaps out of the realm of normalcy for that seller. You should pay for said special request - including their time and inconvenience. Furthermore, 19th Century, so what? Twenty-nine cent sold at Woolworth, Homer Laughlin Harlequin Animals [$150.00+] are more valuable than MOST 19th Century china! All items should be packed carefully. BTW, I have NEVER used bubble wrap since selling on eBay beginning early 1997. I have shipped entire sets of Fiesta, and antique dinnerware without problems. Bubble wrap and peanuts are an unnecessary expense if one is a professional packer.
[4] "This morning I hear back from the seller who says shipping, handling and insurance for the eight plates will be $35. Huh? The cost of all eight plates is under $100..." This one always urks me! What the heck does ending bid price have to do with shipping costs? It is a common train of thought on eBay that shows a definite lack processing. Example: 50lb antique brick sells for $5,000.00. Shipping is $250 - no problem. Same [could happen] 50lb antique brick sells for $25. Shipping is $250.00 - BIG problem. How come, you get same antique brick?
[5] "...the seller only has about five feedbacks. That is why I asked for bubble wrap. When new sellers package multiple items with newspaper I get a box of broken dishes." That's an unfair statement. You are protected by insurance against loss or damage. Furthermore, not all new eBay sellers are NEW to the antique and collectibles market. Many have been selling and shipping for years out of catalog.
[6] "I don't even mind paying a reasonable handling fee, say five dollars." Again, it's not your right or privilege to mandate what others charge, is it?
[7] "For the people who said I got a good deal, the seller started the auctions at one dollar, described the backmarks incorrectly, hardly gave any description text, text was full of misspellings and the photos were only about one to two inches square. The plates would have sold for more if the seller had done their job, identified the maker correctly, placed the auctions in the correct category, used a better description and given decent photos. As it was, I recognized the plates as being part of a tea set I am building so I bid and won. Don't know why I should be punished for the seller's incompetence." You are being punished - by yourself... Furthermore, perhaps you should have inquired about the condition of the plates. Condition is very subjective, and, the plates could have lots and lots of UTENSIL wear; therefore, the seller may have felt the plates were in excellent condition "for the age!" hahaha [speculation on my part, you didn't mention condition].
[8] A $15 handling fee for packing china is not overtly excessive, I doubt eBay would view it that way either based upon averages. You sell mostly china, and I assume, have your packing duties refined and tuned - that's great. However, you knew this was a new seller, yet you seem to expect so much for so little.
[9] The best for last. Why didn't you take the high road and point your "valued customers" to the auctions in question. They could have bid on their own, and saved you the trouble of attempting to keep costs low to enable reselling? Hehe couldn't resist!
posted on April 15, 2001 03:25:31 PM new
Just my two cents....The reason you bought the plates at such a good price is the same reason you are unhappy with the way they ship...the seller's inexperience. IF this person was more experienced..had a better camera..had more knowledge of the plates..you would probably have paid much more for the plates. I guess it kind of evens out.
posted on April 15, 2001 03:42:13 PM newDarcy IMO you're getting some lousy pro-seller, anti-buyer advice here.
$15 is an OUTRAGEOUS charge for handling and even if they had Mailboxes Etc. do the packing, I'm still thinking that's high.
IMO you should NOT pay this seller a dime until you get a much better feel for how they arrived at this. I'm also concerned about how experienced they are at packing, even with your instructions. I wouldn't leave it to chance. The fact that you got a great deal doesn't diminish your right to reasonable shipping and "handling" and an assurance of safe packing.
Personally (this is what I would do, not necessarily what I'm suggesting you do), I would tell the seller I find the shipping and handling outragerous (or unreasonable, etc.), point to my feedback to indicate my experience in these matters, remind them (IF they are indeed new) that ebay has a provision in its policies against excessive handling charges as "fee avoidance." And ask for an explanation. I'd include my (that is your) estimate of postage on the plates, and I might outline (as you did) how simple and quick it is to package them properly and well. And I'd probably say something to the effect that I'm just not willing to pay handling charges that high (in the "unreasonable" range) when that wasn't specified in the auction.
I have to warn you though. I had a seller try to impose high handling charges on a sale a while back -- not THIS high tho -- and when I faced him down, I never heard back from him, which was fine with me at that point. Too embarrassed, I guess (and rightly so).
I SURE wouldn't let somebody get away with this. Predator.
[ edited by CleverGirl on Apr 15, 2001 03:56 PM ]
, they obviously don't have a clue what a really high price for shipping can be. 