unknown
|
posted on April 23, 2001 09:53:07 AM new
5 Months later, paypal rules that the seller did indeed cheat me, but they will do nothing. Here's the email I got today.
This was an outside auction deal, but with a seller I had done business with previously.
Dear PayPal User,
PayPal has concluded the investigation of your Buyer Complaint. We appreciate your patience and cooperation in the processing of this complaint. As our policy states, we conducted this investigation on a best effort basis and made no guarantee of funds recovery.
Case ID:xxxxxx
Transaction Amount: $xx.xx (~$50)
Transaction Date:11/xx/00
Seller's mail:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Our investigation has revealed that the seller is at fault and as a result you are due a refund. However, we regret to inform you that we were unable to recover funds from the sellers account, as the seller's account balance is $0. If this transaction occurred on an auction site, we encourage you to contact that auction site, as they may provide you with insurance coverage.
We value your business and regret that you have had this experience. To avoid similar experiences in the future we recommend that you read our Security Tips on our website located at:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fraud-prevention-outside
Sincerely,
Complaint Resolution Department
[ edited by unknown on Apr 23, 2001 09:54 AM ]
[ edited by unknown on Apr 24, 2001 08:45 AM ]
|
mikeselis
|
posted on April 23, 2001 10:19:21 AM new
You take all of the evidence and have a discussion with the local prosecutor or police. However, because of the small amount, they are unlikely to do much. If the amount had been over $200, it is a felony in some states. That would result in a warrant, and all of the problems associated with warrants for the suspect. If they get pulled over for a ticket, they will get arrested... For less than $50, your time is probably best spent researching how to get your credit card company to do a chargeback...
I've been using Ebay since 1998!
|
Valleygirl
|
posted on April 23, 2001 12:49:17 PM new
This is exactly why I no longer use paypay.
Not my name on ebay.
|
chris30
|
posted on April 23, 2001 01:33:33 PM new
PayPal took five months just to say "sorry your SOL?" I can understand the need to investigate. However, five months is a little extreme. Also they suggest you go to the auction company? What a joke. Your time would have long expired.
I have tired calling PayPal and asking about their actions on Fraud. I can't get a clear answer. The person did confirm that if I were to receive funds from a stolen card or if there were problems the entire account would be restricted. I posted a message (questions) for Damon but it wasn't answered.
I'm starting to reconsider our use of PayPal. Thankfully these boards all us to exchange information.
Sorry about your situation. I appreciate your sharing this information with us.
Chris
|
chris97
|
posted on April 23, 2001 02:54:23 PM new
Unknown,
Phone your credit card company and charge back the purchase. State to them you never received the goods or whatever the facts are.
I did this on an item that was never sent to me. There was no problem and I got all my money back. Just get your card invoice for the month your card appeared and call the 1-800 number on your card.
|
MRBucks
|
posted on April 23, 2001 03:19:37 PM new
unknown:
What do you expect Pay Pal to do when there is ($0) dollars in the sellers account...?
Pay it out of their pocket..??
I believe from their letter, if there were $$$ in the account, you would have been refunded..
You buy stuff online, thru a catalog, etc, send the $$ and take your chances...
..Life is like email, sometimes 'some people' just don't get it...
|
chris30
|
posted on April 23, 2001 03:43:40 PM new
If indeed PayPal did take five months to resolve this matter I think they should be held liable and return the funds. If this was handled in a timely manner then thats a different story.
|
ROY222
|
posted on April 23, 2001 04:24:56 PM new
I filed one of these the other day for an ebay seller that showed a scan of one item and mailed another. I paid with money in my paypal account.
I guess I am screwed again.
|
roofguy
|
posted on April 23, 2001 04:44:22 PM new
Paypal is not God, they can't prevent bad things from happening.
Buyers are responsible for their own decision to send money. Time to stop blaming paypal.
|
loggia
|
posted on April 23, 2001 07:53:24 PM new
Actually, you can blame PayPal. Here's why.
Unknown could have disputed the charge with her credit card issuer within 60 days of the purchase. She may have received her money back that way. The credit card company has 2 billing cycles or a maximum of 90 days to resolve the dispute, by law.
Instead PayPal took 150 days to investigate. And then did not reimburse the disputed amount. And then Unknown could not dispute the charge with her credit card issuer.
[ edited by loggia on Apr 23, 2001 07:55 PM ]
|
figmente
|
posted on April 23, 2001 07:55:09 PM new
5 month wait then SOL note -
That's much more than can be expected from check or money order payment.
|
kikat
|
posted on April 23, 2001 08:01:01 PM new
If the person that defrauded you had been "verified" I wonder if you'd been able to get your money back?
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 23, 2001 09:54:12 PM new
Hi,
I am placing the Buyer Protection information here for the benefit of other users in the forum. The Buyer Protection Program does not obviate any consumer rights relative to charge backs.
PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process helps protect PayPal members when a merchant does not deliver goods as promised. If you have been unable to resolve a dispute with a seller, you may file a Buyer Complaint Form (go to the Security Center link in the footer of any PayPal page) to initiate an investigation. PayPal will investigate your complaint and attempt to recover any funds you are owed. You will be entitled to the return of any funds PayPal is able to collect on your behalf. However, fund recovery is not guaranteed.
Additionally, buyers who qualify for eBay's insurance policy (currently limited to $200) may recover up to an additional $200 of protection from PayPal if their purchase was made from a verified PayPal seller.
Please review the Consumer Protections section of our Terms of Use to learn the specific terms and conditions of the Buyer Complaint Process.
|
loggia
|
posted on April 24, 2001 03:43:07 PM new
From your TOS:
PayPal encourages all buyer purchase disputes to be filed and resolved through the PayPal dispute resolution process, and reserves the right to terminate or restrict account privileges of buyers who file chargeback complaints without attempting to resolve the complaints through PayPal.
So the above buyer went through your process, PayPal took 150 days to resolve it, thus the buyer then lost their right to chargeback.
Of course, they had the choice of charging back, at the risk of PayPal terminating their account.
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 24, 2001 03:56:09 PM new
Hi loggia,
I don't have access to the customer's account records to validate the time the claim was filed.
Using the service does not obviate any consumer charge back rights, but the customer is at risk of having potential account issues if they file a charge back without going through the Buyer Protection Process.
Customers typically have 60 days (in the majority of the cases I have seen) to file a charge back with their credit card company. This is an issue that we don't have control over (a customer could have filed a BP claim and a charge back---as an example, not pointing to this case because I don't have the records---I have to speak to policy).
|
JSmith99
|
posted on April 24, 2001 04:11:50 PM new
I don't have access to the customer's account records to validate the time the claim was filed.
Or to dispute it.
Using the service does not obviate any consumer charge back rights, but the customer is at risk of having potential account issues if they file a charge back without going through the Buyer Protection Process.
So this is how PayPal's scammer-protection continues: If the victim files chargeback, PayPal punishes them by locking or cancelling their account; If the victim doesn't file chargeback, PayPal draws out the "investigation" until the victim is out of other recourses.
The solution is clear: Don't trust ScamPal to help you. File your chargeback, and when they lock/cancel your account just create a new one and continue on (until the next time you're victimized by fraud and have to repeat the process).
|
roofguy
|
posted on April 24, 2001 04:25:37 PM new
Buyers just have to be responsible.
Paypal policy is very clear. Buyers who don't read come here crying about what the policy says after they pay a bad seller. It gets old hearing time after time about clueless buyers who want a mother to come by and get their money back from the bad kid who stole it.
|
loggia
|
posted on April 24, 2001 04:36:30 PM new
The consumer's rights through FCBA are definitive: 60 days to file a dispute, 90 days of investigation.
Through PayPal's Buyer Protection, the consumer has 30 days to dispute and there is no limit on how long PayPal can investigate.
|
JSmith99
|
posted on April 24, 2001 04:37:06 PM new
Paypal policy is very clear.
That policy is apparently:
"We make money off sellers, not buyers, and we make LOTS of money off sellers who scam LOTS of people. Therefore, we're not really interested in helping buyers who've been scammed."
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 24, 2001 04:55:50 PM new
Hi,
Here is a user that got their money back
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=47&thread=1212
The terms of recovery, and how, are quite clear.
|
roofguy
|
posted on April 24, 2001 05:07:12 PM new
And FAST. 1 day fast.
|
JSmith99
|
posted on April 24, 2001 05:25:38 PM new
And FAST. 1 day fast.
Wrong -- 2months + 1 day
Too bad PayPal doesn't have their own message board on their own site, so all PayPal users could get attention like that person did.
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 24, 2001 05:28:11 PM new
Hi jsmith99,
The message board option is being looked at on our end.
|
unknown
|
posted on April 24, 2001 07:22:26 PM new
In defense of PayPal, there was some delay in filing the complaint. The seller told me that the item was shipped and lost in the mail. They we going to ship another one, but this turned out to be a stalling tatic. So it was about 60 days after the transaction that I actually filed the complaint with paypal. But they still took 3 months to resolve. Also the funds came from my paypal balance not a credit card, and Paypal has never charged my credit card. (I am a seller primarily)
|
dcoste011
|
posted on April 25, 2001 01:14:49 PM new
My name is Daniel Costello and I am a reporter at the Wall Street Journal. I would love to talk to you about what your wrote. If you have a moment, my email is [email protected] and my phone number is 212-416-3620.
Thanks. Dan.
|
lanefamily
|
posted on April 25, 2001 01:56:27 PM new
Dan;
I am sure several people would like to talk to you about several issues with PayPal. I myself got that same letter as I am sure others have.
Damon;
You did not post the thread (which I can't find now, maybe someone better can) where I got the same letter in late Feb/early March about Yes we agree you got taken and there is no money to give you.
Everyone;
I have posted this several times before and again here is another good time. Never Pay anyting with funds already in your PayPal account. Always transfer it out to another account. Never Pay from Your Checking account. Always pay from a Credit Card. You may be able to charge back againsed PayPal if you get taken.
I figure if PayPal closes your account for a legit charge back then there is a bigger problem.
Jim
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 25, 2001 02:01:45 PM new
Hi lanefamily,
Here is the Buyer Protection Program information. This is more protection than if you had paid via a check or money order because we are doing all of the legwork in trying to get you your money back. This can require legal intervention and is not a guarantee.
What is the Buyer Complaint Process?
PayPal's Buyer Complaint Process helps protect PayPal members when a merchant does not deliver goods as promised. If you have been unable to resolve a dispute with a seller, you may file a Buyer Complaint Form (go to the Security Center link in the footer of any PayPal page) to initiate an investigation. PayPal will investigate your complaint and attempt to recover any funds you are owed. You will be entitled to the return of any funds PayPal is able to collect on your behalf. However, fund recovery is not guaranteed.
Additionally, buyers who qualify for eBay's insurance policy (currently limited to $200) may recover up to an additional $200 of protection from PayPal if their purchase was made from a verified PayPal seller.
Please review the Consumer Protections section of our Terms of Use to learn the specific terms and conditions of the Buyer Complaint Process.
|
roofguy
|
posted on April 25, 2001 05:54:37 PM new
The Paypal buyer protection plan is very clear. People think Paypal is a mother who can make the bad kids give back stolen stuff. Paypal is not a mother, Paypal is a payment service. It's time for buyers to grow up and start accepting some responsibility.
|
cin131
|
posted on April 25, 2001 06:14:24 PM new
roofguy, you seem to really like paypal. Apparently, you're one of the few that have never been $crewed by them. My friend had her account locked for undisclosed reasons, & when she tried to call them to get answers to questions she got nothing. She still has no idea what happened. Her account is now CLOSED.
I paid for something with funds from my paypal account, and never received the item. Paypal wouldn't do anything without the reference # from the Ebay insurance claim. I couldn't file with ebay because it was only $25.00. When I tried (several times) to explain that to paypal I received the same paragraph C&P in 3 seperate emails. Canned Email. I closed my account after that.
The scary thing is, the odds...I purchased under 10 things with funds from my ebay account.
As for responsibility....what's the point? I responsibly paid for my item with paypal. The seller, who was **verified** did not send the item. She was irresponsible, and she got to keep the $$$. So, the responsible one got $crewed.
[ edited by cin131 on Apr 25, 2001 06:17 PM ]
|
paypaldamon
|
posted on April 25, 2001 06:20:43 PM new
Hi cin131,
While I do sympathize with the issue that you were defrauded, our terms of use do cover what is protected and how they are protected.
We will attempt recovery at the time of the claim or pursue action (through legal means) to recover your money. This is not, however, a guarantee.
An individual defrauded you and PayPal is trying to recover the money. There is actually more safety, and less legwork on your end (because we handle the investigative process) to recover the money. If you had sent a check or money order you would have to do all of the legwork to attempt recovery and this is no guarantee. We are working on your behalf to get you your money, but I always advise users that a person, not PayPal, defrauded them. It would be like attacking the post office or the bank cashing the check for an individual's actions.
|
