posted on June 23, 2001 08:50:47 AM
I buy a lot of the same identical item on eBay, and know exactly what they cost to ship.
Lately, although the listing says "buyer pays actual shipping charges" I have been getting requests for payment that include an additional amount, although the listing made absolutely no mention of "handling" or or extra charges.
I feel like the seller is being sneaky, sneaky.
Do I stand my ground and refuse to pay more than the postage?
posted on June 23, 2001 09:36:19 AM
When I, as a seller, state "Actual shipping charges" I mean what I pay the PO to ship the item (including insurance and delivery confirmation if applicable).
However! Other sellers might consider the definition different than that. Rather than jumping all over him/her right from the get-go, I'd write an innocent-sounding note, to wit:
In your auction listing, I see "Actual shipping charges" listed. Your 'payment due' notice to me seems to include some additional charges. Would you please explain? Something along those lines. You can get tough later.
posted on June 23, 2001 09:47:32 AM
There was a time when I thought"actualy shipping" meant what was paid to the PO to get my package to me: postage and insurance. Now, I am not really sure what a seller means! As Islander has already said, it means different things to different folks.
I now stay away from those auctions unless I have time to email the seller to find out what their interpretation of "actual" means!!!
posted on June 23, 2001 10:00:56 AM
After reading many, many discussions on this some sellers take Actual Shipping to mean the postage price.
However, there are a good many who view Actual Shipping as being their gas money to the post office, time spent packaging the item, time spent waiting in line, so on and so forth.
It'd be much easier to understand if there was an option for 'actual postage price'.
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posted on June 23, 2001 10:13:32 AM
"Actual shipping" could mean TO SOME sellers the actual cost of packaging materials + postage not actual postage.
Just a thought...
edited to add:
Sellers should really put the shipping amount in their auction. Then, when you bid on an auction you are agreeing to pay that amount. No matter what option they have selected. No surprises...
[ edited by outoftheblue on Jun 23, 2001 10:18 AM ]
posted on June 23, 2001 10:15:26 AM
I'm one who also believes 'actual shipping charges' should mean actual postage fees. But it doesn't....so I always email and ask if a specific shipping amount is not stated in their description.
I agree with the suggestion of emailing the seller and ask why there's a difference in costs to ship, mentioning what you've paid in the past for similiar items you've purchased. If they don't agree to actual postage, I'd suggest you pay it. Then ask from here on out.
posted on June 23, 2001 10:46:28 AM
I think its OK if a seller wants to charge a handling fee - As long as I know before I bid what the TOTAL is going to be.
But I also think if the seller is going to add an extra fee they should disclose it up front in the listing, especially since "actual shipping" has been checked.
After I have made the decision to spend X, I don't like getting emails that say I have to spend X+Y.
On smaller items, an undisclosed extra handling charge can be a significant percentage of the total.
selecto
posted on June 23, 2001 11:13:24 AM
My own interpretation is "actual shipping" = postage + cost of packing materials. These are concrete costs for which a seller has to pay actual cash money, and for which he could produce a legitimate, third-party receipt, if I were so anal as to request one.
It doesn't include labor -- compensation for time spent wrapping up the package (even if he's paying his 13-year-old daughter -- or Mailboxes Etc -- to do his packing for him), time spent standing in line at the post office, time spent composing the text for the auction listing, or time spent rummaging through items at the thrift store looking for new things to sell. Charges for for labor are what I would call handling.
JMHO.
[ edited by triplesnack on Jun 23, 2001 11:14 AM ]
posted on June 23, 2001 12:06:40 PM
Let's first differate "packaging" and "shipping" costs.
If I wrap the item in a box, and you come to my house to pick it up, that would be a packaging cost.
If I wrap it up in packaging to ship it out, that would be a shipping cost because it can't ship without packaging.
I also include costs to get it from my front door to their front door- gas to the PO, and time to stand in line. It won't get to their front door unless I ship it to the PO.
posted on June 23, 2001 01:06:00 PM
It does not mean "bend over"
All my auctions state "actual shipping charges", and that is what I charge - what I pay the PO to send it.
I do not put the actual amount because there are some factors that can add on to the price of shipping (insurance, del. confirmation, etc.)
And then there are items which are more than 7 pounds, which I need an address to determine shipping costs...
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posted on June 23, 2001 02:47:08 PM
While some sellers like rewassago interpret it the same as virtually all new buyers do, there are many sellers who purposely use it to extract some unknown additional charges. This has forced many sellers to add "no extra handling charges." , which shouldn't be necessary, but unfortunately is. Ebay needs to simply remove its checkoff. I can't see how this would hurt anyone other than those who abuse and confuse it.
posted on June 23, 2001 02:59:50 PM
If you're shipping UPS, or USPS when shipping zones come into play, how can you give actual shipping costs in an auction listing without having psychic powers??? How the heck do you know the winning bidders ZipCode before the auction closes??? If distance effects cost, and the seller gives a fixed amount in their listing, they must be eating any excess costs that may result (or overcharging if they're stating the max cost possible).
Now if the person's using a dropshipper and mailing out small lots, there may be a "small order fee" (for example, orders under $30) sellers are hit with from the dropshipping company. That's a handling fee they may want to pass onto the buyer as an additional cost.
posted on June 23, 2001 03:31:30 PM
I think we all understand seller004's comments. Everytime this "actual" discussion comes up, we hear the same comments about not knowing what the charge will be. That is NOT the problem. The problem is the use of "actual" contrary to the general understanding of ALL new buyers. Ebay has stated several times that the intent of "actual" is just postal/shipping costs, no handling fees. Everyone understands that often the true charges cannot be stated in the listing, most everyone understands that there might be a reasonable handling fee. The whole problem is with newer buyers who find after the auction that there is a large handling fee. Yes the easy answer is "they should have asked", but until they get burned a couple of times, they don't know that it should be necessary. They think they know what "actual" means. WRONG!
posted on June 23, 2001 03:40:36 PM
Well, I wrote eBay and asked them what the phrase meant, and here is the typical mealey-mouthed reply I got:
Hello Mike,
Thank you for writing eBay regarding your questions about "buyer pays
actual shipping charges". I will be happy to help.
The term "buyer pays actual shipping charges" is simply an aid to help
sellers state their shipping terms. It is not an exact language that
means that the buyer pays only the actual postage charges. It means
what the seller chooses it to mean. This means that some sellers can
include "handling" as the actual shipping charges if they choose.
Before bidding on an auction, bidders should contact the seller about
any questions they might still have that are not directly answered in
the auction's description, this includes a definition of what the seller
means by "buyer pays actual shipping charges".
To which I say - why should I have to write every seller and ask them if actual means actual or if it means something else?
posted on June 23, 2001 03:48:44 PM
Not only is that mealy-mouthed, it is also contrary to at least 6 replies from 6 different ebay pinks. Don't have time right now, but over on the ebay shipping thread, it can be researched, and one brave gent comes up with the whole thing, about twice a month. And regardless of all of this and that, the fact remains that virtually all new buyers get burned by it; and there is no reason for sellers to use it and then add more charges, other than to mislead the new buyers. There, I've said it and I'm glad. Flame away.
posted on June 23, 2001 04:05:07 PM
Well just being contentious here but I don't really see how gas and "waiting in line at the post office" can realistically be added as "actual shipping charges."
If your car gets 5 miles to the gallon, and gas is $2.00 a gallon, then your gas cost is 40 cents/mile. If the round trip to and from the post office is 6 miles, then the actual cost of gas is $2.40 for the trip. If you're dropping off 5 packages, then the pro-rated cost for each is 48 cents.
It would seem silly to me and a waste of time for a seller to make this computation each and every time he sends a package, making sure he reflects current gas prices and keeping logs to accurately gauge what mileage his car is getting. Makes more sense to say, "well, let's just add 50 cents a package for gas." But that's an estimate. An estimate is not actual, and is better described as "fixed shipping" or "shipping plus handling."
Same with the cost of "waiting in line at the post office." Better keep time records, and be able to substantiate whatever hourly rate you're valuing your time at. Don't forget to pro-rate when you drop off multiple packages.
I'm not saying I begrudge sellers for trying to make up these costs; just don't call it "actual shipping."
It sure would be easier if eBay would provide a concrete definition of what they mean by "actual shipping," 'coz without that explanation it really is wide open to interpretation, and thus more likely to cause misunderstandings than clarify terms for buyers. Logic -- and OK, since when did that have anything to do with eBay -- would tell me that the phrase "actual shipping" is supposed to allow me as a buyer to anticipate what the shipping cost will be without the seller having to spell it out. I know how much a box costs. I know how much postage costs. I don't know how far a seller lives from the nearest post office, how long the lines are there, or what dollar value he's assigned to his "standing in line" time.
posted on June 23, 2001 04:16:31 PMTo which I say - why should I have to write every seller and ask them if actual means actual or if it means something else? - selecto
You don't have to. Just do as I do -- if the seller hasn't in his description clarified the charges to your satisfaction (for me, I usually need a dollar and cents amount), move on to the next listing. There's way too much stuff -- and way too many sellers -- to waste time on those who don't give you "up front" the info you need to make an informed decision about your purchase.
[ edited by triplesnack on Jun 23, 2001 04:17 PM ]
posted on June 23, 2001 04:29:55 PMtriplesnack: sometimes a seller cannot give an actual shipping charge without a zip code. If the item is going UPS or is over 7 lbs and going USPS, you need a zip code to get an actual shipping amount. Not to mention that if insurance is added, the final price can determine how much that is.
I refuse to charge more than what it costs me to ship the item, therefore I put "winning bidder pays actual shipping charges" in my auctions. I don't know of any other way I can do it. There are just too many variables.
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posted on June 23, 2001 04:53:01 PM
Well, here are three of them:
Topic: Re: Actual Shipping Charges Message:
Sent: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 15:37:57 -0700
This conversation illustrates well a common area of confusion right now around the Community which stems from the terms "Shipping and Handling" verses "Actual Shipping." eBay defines "Actual Shipping" as the postage or courier charges. "Shipping and Handling" means that the seller is charging on top of the postage to cover miscellaneous expenses such as packaging materials. You won't find these terms defined anywhere on the site, but we're looking into adding these definitions to our site somewhere, so that everyone will understand our interepretations of these terms.
Hope this helps.
Daphne
eBay Community Support
Sat, 06 May 2000 11:02:51 -0700
This is certainly a hotly debated topic. Actual shipping cost has traditionally referred to the cost charged by the shipping company, and not the packaging and handling costs. Regards,
Jerry
eBay Community Support
Sent:Sat, 27 Jan 2001 14:26:57 -0800 Hello everyone, I do see that there is confusion created by the wording of the shipping options and I will make very sure that this is brought to the attention of management.
The wording "actual shipping" was intended to alleviate the problem - and meant the cost to ship, not handling or packaging. I am worried that "actual postage" will be misconstrued as well, but let us see what we can do. Regards,
Katy
eBay Community Support
posted on June 23, 2001 05:27:25 PMquickdraw29 - Your point of view is not "over my head" -- how rude -- I just disagree with it. And I think I've presented a fairly logical argument for my conclusion. Perhaps if you'd re-read it and address one of my points, instead of just sadly shaking your head, we'd have something to discuss.
posted on June 23, 2001 05:28:17 PM
Well the dictionary states "Actual" as "real, as opoposed to speculative." In finance, "Actual" is opposed to "estimate."
Therefore, as long as the seller calculates the shipping (packaging, gas, time in PO line) costs, as opposed to estimating what those expenses are, the seller may include all those costs under "Actual Shipping."
posted on June 23, 2001 05:41:15 PM
triplesnack, you're actually right that gas would have to be calculated each time to be technically called "actual." But in the rounding method, it would average out, the same method the IRS allows. And since we're only talking about pennies difference in most instances, it's not worth all the huffing and puffing.
Ebay customer support apparently doesn't have a dictionary on hand.
posted on June 23, 2001 05:43:26 PM
So, quickdraw, what do you charge an hour for standing in line at the PO? A friend of mine might have some work for you.
The point is not what the charges are.
The point is letting a buyer know what they are going to end up paying, and not waiting until after the auction is over to hit them with some undisclosed extra fee for packaging time, gasoline, car depreciation, parking fees, standing in line, tape, peanuts, boxes, labels, ink, wear and tear, etc., etc.
If I am to pay for all that stuff, well so be it - I can make a decision if I will bid or not.
But a seller should tell me up-front-and-honest about all these cute little extras and not sandbag me until the auction is over.
