posted on June 24, 2001 12:04:23 PM new
I would really appreciate some input on this one.
A buyer was offered insurance for a $30 package but refused it and now says the item was never received. It was sent First Class so there is no DC. I might also add that this buyer took his sweet time in paying....5 weeks....with several requests for payment and a couple of empty promises that it is in the mail *today*.
Is the seller still under an obligation to repay the buyer? A search at the PO has been requested but it is first-come-first serve so it could be months. I decided to offer half back but haven't received a reply. I just have a gut feeling that I'm being taken on this one. Maybe it is only coincidence but with the late payment, no insurance, plus the buyer has not left feedback for anyone...it adds up wrong to me.
posted on June 24, 2001 12:09:45 PM new
If you offered insurance and buyer refused, then it is the buyer's problem. I make it a requirement to ship insured in the Term of Sale. I don't ever ship anything out uninsured.
You have no obligation to pay back anything.
posted on June 24, 2001 01:03:53 PM new
It has been stated here on AW, in technical language, why a seller is STILL liable for non-delivery or damage of goods in the case of no insurance. Unfortunately, I have no idea when or which thread it was. It may have had something to do with the Universal Commercial Code?
Sooooo, unless you are really sure, better play it safe.
MTown
UBB
[ edited by morgantown on Jun 24, 2001 01:04 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2001 01:10:39 PM new
From another thread:
In my opinion sellers should not "offer" insurance - it should be included in all transactions. FYI &
TTBOMK, you are responsible for damage or loss EVEN IF insurance is refused. And, most likely, you
will get negative feedback from an uninsured buyer with a damaged or lost item. Fabulous double
standard isn't it.
I've found the very best way to quote shipping costs is something like this:
Fixed shipping including guaranteed delivery is $X.XX
Nobody picks apart my shipping, handling, or insurance fees because they DO NOT KNOW what the
itemized costs are. The single figure is accepted or not, hence bid or no bid... Yippie!
Sellers, why open yourself up to more misery than necessary?
posted on June 24, 2001 01:39:57 PM new
Yes, the seller is liable. If a package is not received, the buyer can initiate a chargeback and get all funds returned.
I had an $85.00 transaction, paid through paypal, that the buyer chose not to insure. he never received the item. He initiated a chargeback, and the funds were withdrawn from my account.
I agree, insurance in NOT an option to give to the buyer. Insurance is protection for the SELLER. Insure everything you do not want to refund out of your own pocket.
I learned this the hard way, and now REQUIRE insurance on all items over 25.00
posted on June 24, 2001 02:12:38 PM new
The buyer paid with a check. From what I'm reading, it looks like I will wind up paying it all back. Do you think I should wait to see if I get a reply from the buyer on my 50/50 offer (he never seems to be in a hurry to answer any of my emails) or from the PO or just bite the bullet and send him a refund? I am definitely adding insurance to my shipping fees from now on!
posted on June 24, 2001 02:39:10 PM new
Let me ask you this - If you bought something from JCPenny catalog and never recieved it would you accept their saying "Well we sent it so it is not our responsibility if the post office lost it."?
A SALE has not occured until the buyer takes deliver of the goods in the expected condition.
posted on June 24, 2001 02:41:18 PM new
You said: A search at the PO has been requested but it is first-come-first serve so it could be months.
mho? Let it take months then. Alot of sellers give you the advise that they do this and they do that. They are all words, because when it comes down to it, we don't know what they do in actuallity. If you have the gut feeling this person is trying to get a freebie, then hold off and tell them you are going to let the post office investigate it because of internal Postal problems with fraud with some workers, and they are very aggressive to find the exact route your package took when it left your hands. DC or no DC! Tell them until the Postal Investigation is complete, and it will not start until 30 days after a package is reported lost or missing, your hands are tied. Ask them also to re-check if someone else in the household might have received the package and didn't tell them, becuse if such a thing happened, it will be found. This happened in only 2 of my transactions, and lo and behold, the elusive package was found. A miracle!!
posted on June 24, 2001 03:00:26 PM newA SALE has not occured until the buyer takes deliver of the goods in the expected condition.
Wrong. It depends on the Terms of the sale.
FOB (Origin) is at least 300 years old, has been tested in courts, and found to be valid. Title to the merchandise passes to the buyer the instant the merchandise is placed with the carrier.
I don't ship this way, but it is a valid terms of sale.
posted on June 24, 2001 03:09:41 PM new
gravid: I know. I have trying to put myself in this buyer's shoes....How would I feel? Truth is I would not be in his shoes. I pay on time, I buy insurance and I have had lots of sellers give me the choice. On a $5 item, unless it was breakable, I wouldn't buy insurance but on $20 or more an extra $1.10 is worth the peace of mind.
furkidmom: That is very much what I told this buyer in my last email. Once the package is safely at the PO, it is out of my hands and we will have to wait our turn for the search. Time will tell.
This is the first package that has been *lost* and I have even sent several overseas. I keep thinking I should have paid for the insurance out of my own pocket. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. I may be blind as a bat without my glasses but my hindsight is 20/20.
[ edited by bizzybee22 on Jun 24, 2001 03:12 PM ]
[ edited by bizzybee22 on Jun 24, 2001 03:21 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2001 04:32:58 PM new
everybody seems to get this wrong.
if insurance is offered and not taken it is not the responsibility of the seller to make it right. It could come down to you having to prove that you did actually give it to the post office which could be tough. but if they declined insurance they have accepted liability. The only way that I can see that you can protect yourself would be if you used the post office DC option when you mailed, this way you could prove that you did mail the item.
Now if you go and read the postal code, and that is where a lot of people get that the seller is responsible, you will find that the "rule" is very narrowly written that mail order companies are responsible to actually deliver the merchandise that is bought. that is one of the reasons that many mail order companies worked reduced fees and deals with UPS for bulk shipping years ago and because they did a good job at tracking the packages. Even if they left it at someone's front door and it was stolen or the recipient was lying that they never received it they had a paper trail to that front door and UPS would pay the claim.
So are you an auction seller selling person to person, or are you a mail order company? I use to tell people when they would complain when I held checks for 25 days, sorry this is mail order plain and simple. we don't hold checks 4-6 weeks like the mail order companies do, if you can even find one that still takes checks these days but the 25 day hold stands. now we only hold checks 15 days, they still complain but 10 just is not enough in most cases. So what are you? if you check the auctions that the USPS is running on ebay from their dead letter department, remember this is stuff that they for whatever reason could not deliver and could not return to the sender, as in it is our stuff. In every auction it says that the buyer is responsible for paying for insurance that they will not be responsible for items that are not insured, so if your looking for precedence their you go, point your seller to one of the USPS auctions.
USPS and UPS insurance and self insuring. everyone likes to talk about how they self insure and how they feel that it is ok because they will pay a claim right now! Well UPS did this for a time. once upon a time UPS had an insurance carrier, they had a falling out so UPS said no problem we'll do it ourselves, the problem is UPS in not in the insurance business, they are not licensed as such in every state and they are not bonded to operate as an insurance company. So the government got wind of all this they were making so much extra money the didn't know what to do with it all and to make matters worse UPS was transferring the monies off shore. So when the government came knocking they paid a small fine and were given a deadline on finding a carrier. So if UPS can't do it the small eBay seller probably shouldn't do it either.
Most of these mail order companies use a lot of the services that the post office use to reduce shipping costs, some are very minimal like .005 some are as much as .60 that I know of over several hundred thousand or a million packages shipped in a year the savings can be huge. also the post office gives volume shippers, like mail order companies, reduced insurance so if they choose to insure with the post office it costs them less than half what it costs us. to "self insure" in this case, the insurance is not actually insurance and you will not see it represented as such, but either way a mail order company has to insure delivery of the item.
In my experience the post office looses about 2 to 3 packages per 1000, you have to wonder if they loose more and people just never complain. I have several packages that have been returned and I've emailed the people only to have the email bounce and have never heard form them again. Some of these were for items that cost over 80.00, still sitting here some over 2-1/2 years later.
Now with all that said, if it happened to me it would have been insured anyway. I insure with U-pic they charge less then the post office so I charge the 1.10 that the post office charges and then I insure everything with them, as in every package I ship. YES I know the shipping purists out there will complain about this but all the money goes into one pot, shipping, handling, and insurance, and how I disperse that money is how I operate my business and what works for me may not for you. At the end of the last two years when you add it all up I am actually in the hole for S/H/I only due to the fact that we use lots of pellets, new boxes, tape, etc.,
posted on June 24, 2001 05:54:19 PM new
If the buyer was offered insurance and declined the seller isnt responsible. Go to any legal firm and they will tell you like they did me. Remember the buyer most likely received the package and wants the money as well. Its one of the oldest cons in the mail order industry, and is why most include insurance in shipping fee.
posted on June 24, 2001 07:06:43 PM new
What confuses the issue here is that we are dealing with "consumers" and not a wholesaler or re-seller. Consumers are treated very differently in the law than dealing with another business.
Terms such as FOB, and thinking that because insurance was declined by the buyer it makes the buyer responsible is not the case. These terms are used in situations between businesses.
If it is a credit card transaction, and the item didn't get to the buyer and you can not offer credible proof it did, it doesn't make any difference what terms were used, or if the buyer turned down insurance, the seller gets charged back.
The rule of thumb and the smart way to do this business is to insure anything you the seller can't afford to take the loss on. Not having proof of delivery or insurance can not distinguish a good seller from a fraud or cheat when an item is not delivered, unless the seller is willing to make good on the item.
posted on June 24, 2001 07:32:55 PM newConsumers are treated very differently in the law than dealing with another business.
So how does the post office get away with terms like these when selling to "consumers"? Are we to believe the Post Office is guilty of mail fraud?
Terms such as FOB, and thinking that because insurance was declined by the buyer it makes the buyer responsible is not the case.
It most certainly is the case. Consumers need to read the terms of sale.
If it is a credit card transaction
the merchant has agreed to the terms of the payment company. It's all about terms.
The rule of thumb and the smart way to do this business is to insure anything you the seller can't afford to take the loss on.
I agree, and that's how I do it. Nothing gets shipped without insurance unless I'll "eat the cost if it gets lost". But other terms of sale are valid.
[ edited by Microbes on Jun 24, 2001 07:37 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2001 08:10:57 PM new
How long has it been since you mailed the package? I sent a package from North Carolina to California last month. It took 32 days to arrive. Why this happened, I have no idea. It was addressed properly, and showed no signs of distress when delivered.
Personally, I would not refund any money if insurance was offered and refused. I would not expect a refund if I were your customer. If I take the risk to save on the insurance fee, I will be responsible for the loss.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:39:39 PM new
It has been 2 months now since the item was shipped. It should have been there in 3-4 days. If I felt like I had done anything wrong, I would have refunded the money immediately. I'm hoping the PO will find the pkg but I'm not holding my breath.
posted on June 24, 2001 08:45:36 PM new
what ws7411 said. if i, as a buyer, decline to spring for the $1.10 or $x.xx insurance, how can i reasonably hold the seller accountable? of course there is the possibility that the seller misaddressed it, or used a label that came off, or the ink got wet and the address obliterated. that would be the seller's responsibility.
but that's how i see it, and how i've done things as a buyer. doesn't guarantee other buyers will see it this way. so far, no package has been lost - either from or to me. i tell my buyers this, and also advise them insurance is a good idea because packages can and do sometimes get lost. but since i like being given the choice, and am a grown-up, i give them the same choice.
the funny thing is, after reading several threads on this subject, i'm still not clear on the legalities.
posted on June 25, 2001 07:35:21 AM new
I always use DC because I have never had a package with DC get lost. For 50 cents you can even use it on media mail. Since the difference between first class and priority is usually a nickel, I almost always ship priority and quote that in my auctions. But on lower priced items, I do tell the buyer they can choose cheaper shipping with no insurance or DC at their risk. If they do so, I will not accept any payment method that can be charged back. It is checks and MO only. Very few buyer have paid $1 or so to buy an MO and mail it to me in order to save 50 cents on shipping and DC. I did have a few buyers do this for smartmedia cards (shipping is under $1 in an envelope rather than 3.90 for priority with DC) and 1 or 2 wrote later to say they never go it. I reminded them that they chose to take all risk. Shortly afterward, the envelopes showed up. Whether buyer was trying to pull a fast one or it just took longer, I dont know. But as far as I know, except for one package sent overseas, I have never had anything get lost in the mail and I have never had to repay a buyer and I have no negs.
DC is worth it.
posted on June 25, 2001 08:01:02 AM new
Microbes- Consumers are held to a different standard than businesses. A business is expected to know and be proficient in trade terms, a consumer is not. FOB is a trade term used between businesses, the vast majority of consumers would not know what it means and even if explained to them would not realize the consequences of the term. Using these tactics with consumers that they are not expected to understand undermines accord in the bargain.
Credit card terms are a prime example of terms between businesses, the card issuer and the seller. These terms put the burden on the seller.
Consumer contract cases gave birth to the terms "unconsionable", "against public policy" and "adhesion" in contract case law. Contracts that would have been enforced as between businesses would fail as between business and consumer when using trade terms and practices developed for trade between businesses.
Since dealings on eBay are considered to be transacted in California [at least according to eBay], CA consumer protection statutes may apply. CA's consumer statutes are very protective of the consumer.
posted on June 25, 2001 09:41:56 AM new
Where does it say that consumers are held to a different standard? All I know of is the UCC and it says the default shipping terms are FOB Point of Origin. Also, in regards to consumers and the law, "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse"
posted on June 25, 2001 10:25:02 AM new
Look, if you offer the buyer insurance you are giving him a CHOICE. And there's no point in giving the buyer a choice unless you are willing to accept the consequences of his making a bad choice.
And the consequences are, if he declines insurance he accepts the risk, and if the package is lost, then you must stand firm and not give a refund.
Another consequence is that the buyer may neg you. Accept that, and leave him a non-emotional, factual neg in return.
If you are afraid of getting a neg if an uninsured package is lost, then either require insurance, or always offer a full refund.
posted on June 25, 2001 10:38:47 AM new
Hello All
Nice tread but here’s another twist. Last year when ebay was busy, so was I. I was working 10-14 hours a day and had to depend on my system to operate. I sold a lot and received 80.00 or so and bulk shipped 40 lots the following day. Time passed and buyer stated never got the goods. I “Felt” I was being had but was professional with the buyer and finally after much postal research, retuned the money. Three months later when things were less crazy I did a wall-to-wall inventory and you guessed it. I found the lot. It was never packed nor ever posted. I e-mailed the buyer that “an investigation found the lot” (I didn’t have the guts to tell him where). Upshot is the buyer still wanted the lot so he again posted the check and posted his lot. Moral; not all lost lots are the buyer fault and not all buyers are cooks and finally “gut feeling” can be dead wrong.
Dave [email protected]
posted on June 25, 2001 03:38:41 PM new
The UCC in and of itself is not law and offers only advisory authority. It was drafted by a Bar Association committee.
Some jurisdictions have incorporated the code into law to some degree, others have not.
If you look at the UC code in toto, unless you know of a consumer that is purchasing bulk commodities, or train loads of VCRs, it just doesn't apply to consumer transactions in nearly all cases.
The end result of this "insurance choice" situation will be buyers wising up and using a credit card for all action purchases.
For those of us that accept credit cards, that is fine. For those who don't accept credit cards, you're business will suffer.
posted on June 25, 2001 05:19:42 PM newThe end result of this "insurance choice" situation will be buyers wising up and using a credit card for all action purchases.
What's to wise up? "Insurance is optional, and at buyers expense" seems pretty straight forward to me, and I know exactly what it means. For someone to make a desision not to purchase insurance when the terms read this way, and then insist the seller is responsable is unreasonable.
Again, I don't sell this way, 99% of what I ship is insured, and what little goes out without insurance is low value, and I would replace or refund if there was a problem. I've seen several buyers say that they wouldn't hold the seller responsable, and this is how it should be if these where the terms, but I Just Know that if I had a cheap buyer who refused to insure a $300 item, he would make my life miserable if I didn't make it good. Insurance is built into my shipping and handling, and the buyer has no choice in the matter. (Most things I ship UPS, and the insurance is dirt cheap compared to the Postal Service)
posted on June 25, 2001 05:35:05 PM new
If you accept credit cards, or use Paypal,Billpoint, or any of the other payment services, the buyer can get his money returned to him if item is not received.
As the seller, you will have NO say in this.
The insurance protects the SELLER, not the BUYER!!
Always insure any items you ship that you cannot afford to refund out of your own pocket.
posted on June 25, 2001 08:29:44 PM new
Does your post office give you receipts with the destination zip code printed on it? If you have that, and the original e-mail where the buyer declined insurance, his claim probably would not hold up in small claims court. I forget who the poster is, but someone on this board has won at least 2 court cases where he had all the documentation.
If he paid by check, he can't do a chargeback (lucky you!), and if he declined insurance, I say he's SOL.
BTW take a look at the Post Office's feedback on eBay. If insurance is not purchased, they are NOT NOT NOT responsible! They tend to get negs for it, and you could expect one too, but I don't think the PO would have that policy unless it would hold up in court.
posted on June 25, 2001 08:53:26 PM new
Could someone point me in the right direction to the USPS auctions on eBay? Twice now their auctions have been mentioned and I can't find 'em. Much appreciated!
