posted on September 8, 2001 10:17:20 AM
Does anyone know a way to tell the difference between glass and crystal? I have recently bought 3 cut glass/crystal decanter sets, 2 with cranberry as well, and a 2 handled, lidded bowl, also cut, but I don't know what to list them as. I don't want to say crystal when I am not sure, but they seem to be very good quality. Any ideas?
posted on September 8, 2001 04:25:54 PM
May a glassperson venture an opinion?
It does not matter the lead content, or whether it pings...it has to be identified as Such and such's pattern or # before I would touch it.
That fingernail thingee is something that should have died a death a long time ago.
If your pieces are indeed cut glass (as opposed to pressed), then they are most certainly crystal.
packer is right. Crystal has a lead content and does ping when you flick it with your finger.
I believe glassperson (correct me if I'm wrong) is saying that whether a piece is leaded crystal or pressed glass is of less importance to its value/ultimate sales price than knowing the maker and pattern name.
1.
a.A homogenous solid formed by a repeating, three-dimensional pattern of atoms, ions, or molecules and having fixed distances between constituent parts.
b.The unit cell of such a pattern.
2.A mineral, especially a transparent form of quartz, having a crystalline structure, often characterized by external planar faces.
3.
a.
A natural or synthetic crystalline material having piezoelectric or semiconducting properties.
b.An electronic device, such as an oscillator or detector, using such a material.
4.
a.A high-quality, clear, colorless glass.
b.An object, especially a vessel or ornament, made of such glass.
c.Such objects considered as a group.
5.
A clear glass or plastic protective cover for the face of a watch or clock.
6.
Slang. A stimulant drug, usually methamphetamine, in its powdered form.
adj.
Clear or transparent: a crystal lake; the crystal clarity of their reasoning.
[Middle English cristal, from Old French, from Latin crystallum, from Greek krustallos, ice, crystal.]
posted on September 8, 2001 05:45:41 PM
toke, there's nothing wrong with American Heritage's definition of crystal as far as it goes.
You'll note there is no mention of mineral content and/or formulas in their scanty verbiage, nor that different glass contains different percentages of various minerals/agents.
Old flint glass, for instance, used silica made from flint until later being replaced with sand.
Leaded crystal contains lead oxide. Because of the lead, it is quite a bit heavier and more brilliant than glass that uses other agents.
[ edited by fountainhouse on Sep 8, 2001 05:47 PM ]
posted on September 8, 2001 05:58:58 PM
Toke - Yeah, but for it to be the "high-quality, clear, colorless glass" the dictionary mentions, it has to contain lead. Otherwise (unless it's flint glass, which is very old) it is just clear glass of average quality. "High-quality" is the key point there in their minimalist definition. Glassperson is right -- without a pattern name or maker, saying it's "crystal" is meaningless. Plenty of NEW cheap lead crystal from Poland, Czech. and China is available, so bidders aren't going to risk paying quality prices for that.
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
posted on September 9, 2001 06:21:06 AM
I appreciate the help. I tried the "ping" test, and decided that my every day Walmart glasses were actually crystal!! Just joking. Some have a higher "ping" than others, is that what I am looking for? Unfortunately, not one of them has a mark, they are all cut, some with the milky looking effect. Would they still be crysal if they are partly cranberry color? They are all quite old, came from the estate of a very elderly lady, so I know that they are not the modern reproductions. How would you describe them in listings, "glass, and maybe crystal"? One of the sets with glasses has very heavy glass at the bottom, all are very clear, with gold or silver decoration.
posted on September 9, 2001 07:12:23 AM
I agree... That was the point I was trying to make. The term crystal is used so loosely by people in the trade, that it is virtually meaningless in a description. Not to mention there is no truly precise definition, as applied by dealers, to antique glassware. I think many people just use it because it sounds classier than plain old plebian "glass."
posted on September 9, 2001 09:38:25 AM
Here's a few observations, I may be off base, I'm not a glass person.
I auctioned off a decanter that I listed in the title as "crystal". It was heavy for its size, hand blown, obviously of high quality, quite resonant ("ping" and very old (c1880).
Got many email queries, most asking me to clarify the tint (which looked slightly greyish in the pics). This seemed to be the primary concern for them to determine if I was actually offering "crystal".
I answered that I believed it to be very clear. But by the end of the auction I was second guessing myself and held it against a bright white paper on a bright day. I could not deny that it had the SLIGHTEST tint. I took it to a glass dealer freind, who glanced at it (no ping test, weight assessment , and said nope!, not crystal. I emailed the winner of this, before they paid me, and they declined the sale, stating if it wasn't perfectly clear, it wasn't crystal. Again, no issue of weight or tone when struck.
Apparently, lead and/or manganese is added to a "regular" (I'm sure they try to start with the most quality ingredients they find) glass mixture. These chemicals act as a clearing agent. If successful the glass is brilliantly clear. The lead content tends to make the glass heavier (and resonant), manganese does not. Manganese is more expensive (I believe) and lead is more frequently used. Handling lead is, however, toxic. There may be, and have been other clearing agents employed to avert the former pitfalls.
I personally gather from all this that the clarity may be the most important factor in determining good crystal. The weight (and tonal attributes) of the lead commonly used to create it is PERCIEVED, and has been perpetuated, perhaps falsely, as a basis for determining a pieces status, though the presence of lead, in any amount does not on its own qualify a piece of glass as being crystal. There does not need to be any lead content to qualify a piece of glass as crystal.
Once again, I'm not an expert. Just some observations and personal conclusions. I could well be wrong.
DMAN, I think she has cased glass, a clear glass ware encased with a layer of cranberry or ruby glass. Perhaps cut and polished to allow some of the clear to show through??
[ edited by long_gone on Sep 9, 2001 09:46 AM ]
posted on September 9, 2001 09:42:32 AM
Why do I keep getting on of those smily things every time I use an end parenthisis. (but only on the 1st one) in every post!?!?
posted on September 9, 2001 03:17:08 PM
Amber, It's hard to say without seeing them, but it sounds like you might be describing some cut to clear decanters. That's where the clear glass has a stain or flashed color on the outside and then it has designs cut into it to show the crystal color in the cuts. (If it was stained or flashed, you may find scratches in the color where the clear shows through. Flashed color is more durable than stained color, because it was a very thin layer of glass, while stain is a thin "paint". If it was fired after being applied, as old stain usually was, then it is more durable than if it was cold painted.) That cut to clear stuff really is not my area of glass, so I can't be sure, but I believe that a lot of that was Bohemian made (which is desirable). Some was also American made. If it truly is old*, it will probably be of interest to collectors. You really need to get an ID for it, who made it, etc., if you want it to sell for its best.
*Even 90 year old ladies might have bought new glass last year. The age of the estate doesn't necessarily mean anything.
As for the "pings," what I have discovered is that most glass makes some sort of ping. And some are higher than others. But the ping of lead crystal is more musical than the rest. The pings are also affected by the thickness of the glass and the shape of the piece.
Long_gone -- It happens because the computer language that Auction Watch uses for posting is defective.
Violetta
(Not known by this nickname anywhere but here.)
Basically...hype.
That was the point I was trying to make. The term crystal is used so loosely by people in the trade, that it is virtually meaningless in a description. Not to mention there is no truly precise definition, as applied by dealers, to antique glassware. I think many people just use it because it sounds classier than plain old plebian "glass."