posted on October 26, 2001 06:18:02 AM new
It seems that nearly everyone is upset about Auction Watch requiring
a Credit Card for the purpose of posting on EBay Outlook and their
other message boards. Many current posters say they will not
participate after the requirement starts on November 1st.
Additionally, the Moderators will no longer be present on these
boards.
Even if the credit card was not required, what do you feel The EBay
Outlook will be like without the Moderators?
Will it be a place where each of us can learn from each other, and
share our ideas? Will it the be a fun, and protective environment
where posters can feel "emotionally safe" without being bashed for
taking part?
If it becomes a circus environment, will you stay, even to lurk in the
background? I don’t like negative influences and will very likely
move on. How about you?
posted on October 26, 2001 06:29:30 AM new
You know they could easily get moderators that will work for free. Have you ever heard of College Coops where students often volunteer their services to work for firms and acquire industry experience? AuctionWatch is an Internet firm. It could provide students opportunities to build a resume and have a leg up on the competition when seeking paid employment down the line. If AuctionWatch is going to survive they ought to think outside the box and try and maintain current services. Especially very popular services like the message boards. Kill the message boards and Ad revenue will decline. Who'll be left to advertise to?
posted on October 26, 2001 06:48:01 AM new
Eventer,
They did? When? Why wouldn't it work? Most of our future best and brightest are in colleges today and many have zip to place on resumes. If some of them can't man a stupid message board, there's no hope for the future! Heck, you could get some journalism students to pen articles for the News and Information section, Comp-Sci majors to work on tech issues and AuctionWatch enhancements, and all sorts of other day to day activities. If you can create an intelligent workforce that will work for free, how do you beat that? Of course it would be temporary, but you could have rotating internships. When I was in college I did 3 separate internships (were paid stints) and although we did a lot of gruntwork it was fun and a good learning experience. Nobody is hiring right now so it shouldn't be too difficult to get students to work for free just for the experience.
The worst thing they can do is just eliminate everything. They're dead if they do!
posted on October 26, 2001 07:20:02 AM new
"Kill the message boards and Ad revenue will decline."
Ad revenues!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!! Hey, Rip van eSeller004, I have a ad revenue based internet company that needs venture funding, can I count on you to invest in such a fine business model??? TONS of $$$$$$ to be made in those banner clicks!!!!!
posted on October 26, 2001 07:42:24 AM newHey, Rip van eSeller004
How lovely. I see some have switched to the new mode of operation already. Atleast eSeller004 tried to make his/her point in a positive light w/o putting anyone down.
Why wouldn't it work?
It's a nice idea and it was tried here for a while. It's hard enough being paid to take some of the abuse some posters can deal out, much less be taking that kind of abuse on a volunteer basis.
Not many out there who'd want to take the abuse unless you recruit from one of the S&M boards. Now they might like it.
posted on October 26, 2001 08:09:49 AM new
I was one of the (possibly) few here who tried to give Bidville a chance. Didn't work for me. But while I did have stuff listed there, I mainly lurked on their message boards.
The reason I wasn't an active poster there was because of the lack of moderation. If you dared to express an opinion that conflicted with that of another poster, no matter how politely you might word it, you got bashed and bashed good! Run out of town you might say. If you dared to express any doubts about the future of Bidville, forget it. No one was interested in anything you might have to say after that. And I'm not just talking about my personal experience there either. I saw much the same thing happen to others.
It took more than 6 months or so before people started piping up and saying, "Hey, we need some moderation here" and it took some time before moderation started to take place. Before that, people called each other names big-time, constant put-downs, unabashed nastiness. It took awhile for people to figure out that it might be that nastiness that was keeping people away from Bidville. Who knows how many people looked at the "conversations" in the message boards and refused to buy anything because they figured those posters represented the selling community?
I saw definite favoritism on the message boards. A newbie could pose a question, voice a complaint, whatever, and they were slammed and slammed again until they left. Didn't take too long either. Yet the clique could post in the same vein, and they all agreed and supported each other.
At least that's the impression I was left with.
I predict the same will happen here. Those who already have a CC on file with AW will of course stay and contribute to the boards as long as there are no additional charges for doing so. Will that be enough to keep the boards diverse and active? I doubt it. It'll turn into a little clique of AW users and will be mostly made up of posts about AW services.
posted on October 26, 2001 08:35:20 AM new
My point was not to insult anyone. If making a satirical comparison of someone to Rip van Winkle is something that offends you, I'm not sure how you face the world every day!
My point was to explain that there is no way that AW is getting even a fraction of what the boards cost them through ad revenues. First of all, they only have one normal size banner at the top of the page which is generally ignored. Second of all, even if each of us clicked on the banner each time we posted, it still wouldn't pay the cost of the boards. Even if AW increased the amount of advertising space by 500%, and that it was succesfully implemented so that people clicked and registered/bought/created revenue, the ad revenue wouldn't even be close to paying for even one full-time employee.
It's just the sad fact of internet banner advertising. You can't base your business on it. The smartest move AW has ever made was to start charging for its services. The only way this board could continue as it is now, would have been to start charging. Sure the boards bring in traffic, but so did the auction search function and they trashed that too.
What're you saying? AuctionWatch gives away their banner placements for free? Heck, give em to me if they're free!!
Ad revenues aren't their only revenue stream obviously, but it all adds up. How do you maintain Ad revenue with a declining user base? Firms like Yahoo that were initially almost totally reliant on Ad revenue are now developing other revenue streams, yet still attempting to maintain Ad revenue. Now Yahoo has Ads in places you would have never seen them before (i.e. within the text of news articles, all over their email screens, on message boards, etc.). If Ad revenue was meaningless Yahoo would have shut down banner placements a long, long time ago. They know when the economy picks up again next year Ad revenue will again ramp up.
posted on October 26, 2001 08:38:36 AM newIf making a satirical comparison of someone to Rip van Winkle is something that offends you, I'm not sure how you face the world every day!
I rest my case. Thak you for another sterling example.
posted on October 26, 2001 08:48:11 AM new
Until about six months ago I posted regularly in this forum. Since then I’ve only come to read—and then only when unusually important events were taking place. I mean no disrespect, yeager, but when you raise a concern that eBay Outlook will no longer be “a fun and protective environment where posters can feel ‘emotionally safe’ without being bashed for taking part” I have to wonder if we’ve been reading the same messages.
In my most vigilantly objective opinion—and I know 100’s of others, personally, who will agree with me and who no longer participate here either—the Auction Watch message boards are nothing less than a snake pit. It simply amazes me, even to this day, how much negative energy is expressed here, especially when set side by side with other boards (such as the eBay chat forums, Amazon discussion boards, etc.). Well-intentioned posters who ask the most innocent of questions or offer—God help them—friendly advice are routinely met with sarcasm, ridicule or worse. Moderators only step in when the abuse is utterly flagrant. Believe me, AW HAS a reputation in the general cyber community—and it ain’t good.
Some have speculated that this wild-west-like environment has been deliberately engineered to attract participants—in much the same way the Jerry Springer Show titillates with free-roaming displays of abuse—and more participants translates into more hits for the website and, in turn, potential new customers. I personally have no evidence of this, but who knows? Why would cyberspace be any different from television? I host a book forum at Auction Bytes, and the atmosphere is totally different there. Questions and comments receive civil replies (and what’s more there are bona fide professionals participating in a wide range of specialty forums). What’s interesting is, the resources there for those seeking help selling online are superior to what one can find here, and yet the participation isn’t a quarter of what AW attracts. Gee, I wonder why. In some ways AW reminds me of the early days of bulletin boards (ca early 1990’s), where a certain (sometimes high) percentage of participants came seeking a kind of emotional event, something to make them feel alive for the day, and if there was enough going on, they kept coming.
I have no idea what this, ahem, forum will be like when the moderators stop “moderating”--I suspect it will depend on how this credit card requirement plays out--but it seems highly unlikely that things will improve. Also, to be fair, some good has been done here, over the years, by those thick-skinned enough to put up with those who refuse to let every good deed go unpunished.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:07:27 AM new
Even Google (they power Yahoo's search engine and others) gets a lionshare of their revenue from Ads. However, they are trying to develop other revenue streams as well.
By Frank Barnako, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 10:42 AM ET Oct. 26, 2001
MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIF. (CBS.MW) - Search technology company Google Inc. is reportedly weighing offering searches for a fee.
Subscription options could include "vertical market" searches, which could have an appeal to academic researchers and consumers, CNET reported. Medical information or technology are two areas reportedly being studied. A Google source said plans are still at the discussion stage, and no immediate offering is planned. "Their big problem right now is that 70 percent of their revenues come from advertising," Danny Sullivan, editor of SearchEngineWatch.com told CNET. "You tend to get nervous when you're largely dependent on one thing," he added.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:09:15 AM new
Oops--forgot to mention one more thing. Yesterday I asked (publicly and via email) the moderators to remove a post that contained copyrighted material. It's still up. So much for being protected.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:15:45 AM new
I'm unaware of whether AW has tried unpaid moderators or not, but I've had lengthy experience as an unpaid moderator myself, going back about 12 years...first on GEnie (which probably nobody remembers) and most recently on AOL. I worked for a forum there that was privately owned and run for AOL under contract.
Unpaid moderation can and does work, as I can attest, but if AW has tried it and found it unsuccessful, I'd like to offer some observations.
One of the keys to success is giving moderators reasonable powers to stop nonproductive and unpleasant combat in its tracks and teaching them how to use their powers properly.
Another is creating a camaraderie among moderators that facilitates a sense of being part of a Good Thing and being supported when things get rough. When you've been called a #*!@ and worse, when you've received threatening emails over a moderation call, when you get to the point where you'd like to reach through your monitor and slap somebody...you need to vent! And you need a private, comfortable and even fun place to do that. And you need to feel that the service you're providing is necessary...and furthermore, that the overall objective of the boards is worthwhile.
For the most part, it seems that AW has already got these elements in place. If they choose to try volunteer moderators, they'd probably be successful this time.
Believe me, if any of you think the AW message boards are a "snake pit," you haven't spent any time on political discussion lists, or even on the small business forums over on AOL. In contrast, people here are so well-behaved (or so well-moderated) that it's like going to Sunday school.
I came here a couple of years ago because I found the eBay boards too hard to follow and too overwhelmed with nonessential chitchat. I've found about 90% of the posters here to be geuinely helpful and supportive (or at least not annoyingly combative). I've never had a question go unanswered, and rarely have had any sort of sarcastic or cutting comments directed at me. The nasties, when they erupt, seem to be disciplined at just about the right speed and with the right degree of firmness.
I'd hate to lose this terrific resource, which I visit daily. I hope I don't.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:17:43 AM new
eSeller004, ad revenues are fine, but they're NOT enough to pay the moderators salaries. IF AW goes to an unmoderated format, and IF they keep a good amount of traffic, and IF they get at good at bringing in ad revenues as Yahoo and Google are (your two examples), the boards would be generating profits, not just revenue.
I'm not saying it's impossible to make money on internet advertising, but I am saying that the revenue is too paltry to pay for anyone's salary.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:23:50 AM new
"Believe me, if any of you think the AW message boards are a "snake pit," you haven't spent any time on political discussion lists, or even on the small business forums over on AOL. In contrast, people here are so well-behaved (or so well-moderated) that it's like going to Sunday school."
EXACTLY!!! It's amazing that people could think that my calling someone a "Rip van Winkle" is a good example of how the AW forums are a "snake pit"!!! Rip van Winkle doesn't even make it to the little league, let alone the snake pit league!
What does AuctionWatch charge for each Ad impression? I figure you must know. We'll then estimate how many Ads they run on the site, how many impressions of each there are daily and then guesstimate the Ad revenue. We can then make a best guess whether its enough to pay for a salary or 2. Let's use an average worker making say $40,000 a year.
How much does Google and Yahoo charge for each Ad impression?
posted on October 26, 2001 09:39:47 AM new
I have not seen the "snake pit" at AW in the past couple of years.
When I first arrived it was a bit of a snake pit at times but I survived and today it is a Sunday School in comparison.
It has been a helpful forum for me and I learned a lot about computers, auctions, viruses, and many other things. I directed new users to the picture hosting and most have become successful sellers.
There will always be rebelrousers in any forum, moderated or not. The AW mods the past couple of years have done an excellent job for the most part.
I personally think AW is making a big mistake now as some of the most helpful people won't be back. These are the ones that AW should trust enough that they should require no CC to remain here. They have already proven themselves to be responsible users time and time again.
posted on October 26, 2001 09:45:34 AM new
The Open directory project has hundreds of unpaid volunteer moderators. I've tried to get various sites listed with little luck since many of the moderators are extremely tough.
I'm sure it would be a heckuva lot more fun scolding and deleting unruly posters on the AuctionWatch boards even on an unpaid basis. I'm sure there are people who would enjoy the power-trip!
http://dmoz.org/about.html
The Open Directory Project is the largest, most comprehensive human-edited directory of the Web. It is constructed and maintained by a vast, global community of volunteer editors.
posted on October 26, 2001 10:03:03 AM new
One of the reasons that AOL uses volunteer moderators is because of "Liability". Even MSN stopped paying their moderators and community managers, and hired a private company to manage and pay the Managers.
Chat moderators are not allowed to be instructed, scheduled, or told what to do. If they tell them how to do their job, then they are considered employess. It all has to do with legal liability. I don't understand it all myself, but I know someone who used to be a Community Manager for MSN.
posted on October 26, 2001 10:06:48 AM new
I do not know what AW is charging their advertisers. I do know what the average market rates are. Also, sites like Yahoo are able to charge significantly higher than smaller sites like AW. If you wanted to advertise on a page burried deep within Yahoo, you might get similar rates to AW.
If you want to know exactly what AW charges, just ask them. You might find that they have a rate chart already to send. I'm sure they give better rates to their bigger advertisers, like C2IT. Probably some kind of shared revenue plan, based upon how many new accounts are generated from AW clicks.
Also, 40K sounds a bit low but even assuming such a low salary (AW is based in the valley, right?), a 40K salary cost the company more like 60K. And that's just if you consider payroll, benefits, and such. Maybe more if they have to pay for office space, but maybe this is a job someone can do from a home office.
Anyway, the whole point is moot since we can obviously see by the simple fact that AW is giving them the ax that the revenue generated does not pay enough to support moderated boards. If there was enough revenue, and it was profitible, I doubt that AW would consider axing it.
posted on October 26, 2001 01:15:09 PM new
I've never seen a group of any sort that hasn't had its issues, and I've seen worse "snake pits." Heck, I administered one (a mailing list) that could get to be almost as bad, before, during, and after when I was an administrator of it. Great group of people, for the most part, but raise one particular topic that by its very nature would come up fairly frequently, and boom, there would be a fight, or maybe an all-out war.
Those were the times I had to step in, but occasionally, there were others, and I got critized for being too politically correct, or the "Nazi," or whatever. Some thought I was stepping in too often, some thought not often enough! That list had only 1% the volume of eBay Outlook alone, probably less.
Oddly, I always thought AW moderators stepped in just the right amount, from what I could see. Of course, I could be wrong, it's just my opinion. It is no easier making the judgement as an observer than as an administrator, I guess.
----
What's being done in the name of direct marketing nowadays is crazy.
The above are all just my opinions, except where I cite facts as such.
Oh, I am not dc9a320 anywhere except AW. Any others are not me.
Is eBay is changing from a world bazaar into a bizarre world?
posted on October 26, 2001 07:30:19 PM new
Here's the contact info for the person who will be able to tell you exactly what AW charges for advertising:
