posted on February 27, 2002 10:27:53 PM new
In reading this forum, it doesn’t take but a few message for someone to notice the emphasis that people put on feedback. Some argue as to when it should be posted, some query whether they should give a +, - or neutral, while others brood about the always “undeserved” negative feedback. My view on that subject, and am sure it’s not the popular vote, is that the seller should leave feedback when the payment is received, cleared, or in your hands. The buyer has fulfilled the terms of the “contract”. What other more positive action can the buyer do at this point? “Well, what if they leave negative feedback if something goes wrong?” Nothing one has stated in one’s TOC can go wrong. Insurance is recommended, not responsible …yada yada yada. If something unusual occurs (**** happens type of thing), by sending a shipment notification indicating that should a situation arise that would cause dissatisfaction, to please contact before posting feedback, that “dreaded” neg feedback may be avoided. If one waits until the buyer has posted feedback before a seller posts theirs is essentially being retaliatory in nature. If the buyer posts a neg, well than I’ll zap him too! Isn’t that really what all are really fearful of? The retaliatory feedback. So if you post a positive and the buyer negs you, shake it off. I’m am sure people look at numbers more than they do at percentages. 200 rating is 200 rating. People may look at the negatives in one’s profile, but I can assure you a majority look at the positive in a more focused way. The friend part: its a goal that can be measured. The foe: it consumes you.
Just some thoughts…Please forgive if I sound as if I am on a pedestal. I do not mean to be. In the words of Sam Walton, “THERE IS ONLY ONE BOSS – THE CUSTOMER. And he can fire everybody in the company, from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.”
[ edited by masujoviga on Feb 27, 2002 10:30 PM ]
[ edited by masujoviga on Feb 28, 2002 05:25 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2002 10:41:04 PM new
Withholding feedback is comparable to Soviet/American style mutual nuclear destruction. A deterrent, for frivolous or fradulent negative feedback.)
posted on February 28, 2002 03:30:07 AM new
I personally see feedback as a rating system or grade of how I am doing. If a buyer does not answer emails and does not pay, I do not hesitate to give negative feedback. I do not threaten with neg, I just give it. I am very patient with my buyers, even working with a young man for 2 months until he could pay for the item he bought. He really wanted the item but ran into a financial problem right before he won the bid, I kept checking and he did not bid on anything else until after he paid me. I have only had about 6 deadbeats out of over 700 auctions.
I have received 3 negative feedback and see two of them as underserved because the items were well pictured and described and neither buyer read or looked at any of it. The third I felt really bad about but could not have changed.
Anyone who hesitates to leave feedback because of fear of retaliation neg, is doing a disservice to himself and other buyers/sellers. If a negative is deserved, not because our moral standard is above the other persons, but because we were really deceived or cheated, then it should be left.
posted on February 28, 2002 08:08:20 AM new
Sellers are often way too cowardly about getting a negative. Sooner or later you will get a negative that will be deserved. It's up to the seller to own up to the fact that they aren't perfect and need to improve how they do business.
If 1% of the effort used in trying to avoid a negative is used in earning a positive, that would be a 100% improvement.
posted on February 28, 2002 08:39:00 AM new
masujoviga, I agree with you that sellers giving feedback only after receiving it is e-blackmail. What if the buyer had the same philosophy? Then you would have, "You go first." "No, you go first." "No, you go!"
No, you go!"
posted on February 28, 2002 09:27:54 AM new
It's a Mexican standoff, but often the seller doesn't really care about boosting his own feedback, while the buyer wants to build up his rating.
I could give you many reasons why I believe buyer should leave feedback first. Feedback should reflect the entire transaction. The deal isn't done until the buyer says "okay." I also find that when I leave feedback first, only a small percentage (maybe one third) will reciprocate. I can spend hours each week leaving feedback and getting none in retun.
To put it in very simple terms, if you want feedback so much, leave feedback first. That's not blackmail or extortion. I don't need the numbers so it isn't important to me.
posted on February 28, 2002 09:29:17 AM new
Another obvious reason is that Vrane's feedback tool (which I use) is set up to leave reciprocal positive feedback.
posted on February 28, 2002 09:39:25 AM new
In an indeal world, leaving feedback as soon as payment is received would be the way to go.
However, the way feedback is set up is stacked against the dealer. Negative feedback really does not harm a buyer (unless they only have one account on ebay for buying and selling, then that is a problem for them) - However, most buyers do not realize this, that feedback can't really hurt them.
For the seller, it really comes down to protecting their business. Look at what happened yesterday, someone left NEGATIVE feedback for a seller who offered a full refund and told the buyer to keep the product. You run into unreasonable buyers from time to time, and by not leaving feedback first, at least they will think in the back of their mind that if they leave something negative, then something negative will be left for them.
I've been lucky on ebay, but I've had bad feedback elsewhere. On half.com, when someone buys a book and only pays for media mail, then they can't complain if I ship the book the next day and it takes 10 days to get to them. I've gotten poor feedback because of that. Now with half, I can't respond, but if someone left me neutral or negative and it was UNDESERVED, then I would not hesitate to give a negative back. Now, if it was deserved, that would be a different story. I once got a neutral for sending the wrong item, and could not get the other item back. I left positive for the buyer, because I really did mess up here, and was lucky not to get a negative.
It really comes down to being deserved or not, and most cases I feel it is NOT deserved. By not leaving feedback, I can respond appropriately, and maybe the next time around the buyer will think twice about doing it.
posted on February 28, 2002 09:44:37 AM new
I wish they'd go to a "rating" system where you give a person a 1-5 rating on their performance and then reflect that as an average, with perhaps a list of the number in each rating. If they are storing a 1, 0, or -1 for each transaction, then storing a 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 shouldn't be any different.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:01:27 AM newIn the words of Sam Walton, “THERE IS ONLY ONE BOSS – THE CUSTOMER. And he can fire everybody in the company, from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.”
Any executive who publicly declares that the customers are unimportant is going to have a very short career as an executive.
Personally, I wish eBay would dispose of feedback altogether. Not that that is likely to happen; feedback is touted on eBay's radio spots as the "assurance" that one's trading partner is trustworthy. I'm sure that's a great comfort to the many people who were fleeced by the guy selling figurines. He had fabulous feedback...until he took off with $300,000 of his customers' money.
I think that feedback is ultimately destructive. All you have to do is glance at AW to see the ones who obsess over it and feel the need to painfully explain each neg they receive. More than that, feedback is a powerful tool, but it isn't powerful enough. If you hate a seller, sure, you can leave as many negs as transactions. Is that enough? Will that make you feel better? Probably not. The seller you despise so has 200 other satisfied customers who left him fabulous feedback. Don't tell me that doesn't annoy some of you buyers. I know it does.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:10:56 AM new
I agree with you peiklk!
Seems to me, numerical feedback would be a much better system. No comments, just a numerical score that displays recent numbers and an overall average. We don't need the emotional comments. Obviously if somebody was racking up a slew of ones in recent feedback, one would know there was a problem. The way feedback is now, positive is the only acceptable rating. Most consider neutrals to be negatives. Under a numerical system, I'd bet feedback would be more accurate because people would not be afraid to leave a 4 or 3 rating. It would really separate out the excellent sellers from the very good, good, and poor.
See what you can do to get ebay to implement this will ya peiklk!
posted on February 28, 2002 11:37:05 AM new
"sure it’s not the popular vote, is that the seller should leave feedback when the payment is received, cleared, or in your hands. The buyer has fulfilled the terms of the “contract”. "
No, they have not! Its not over till they get their goods, and only then!
Might help to read what ebays own tos says on the subject.
What it says in a nutshell is that if you wish to leave it when the deal is done, fine.
Nowhere does it state that anyone has to do it!
I never ask for feedback, all I would like from the bidder is to let me know that they have their goods.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:45:13 AM new
Sorry peilik and morgantown, but not only is ebay not going to change their system, they like it so much that they are changing the half.com fb system to one like their own.
Also, just because a numerical average is assigned to a user it doesn't mean it conveys more information or is more objective than a system like ebay's. They are both based on subjective evaluations, so are equally subjective. The numerical system only gives the appearance of being more objective. Ask any statistics Ph.D. and he or she will tell you this.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:46:46 AM new
Yes, it is unlikely that ebay would change things, so I will continue on with my current policies regarding feedback until they do.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:50:07 AM new
The numerical system is something that half uses and is being replaced by the eBay system. I like the numbers, but it still doesn't mean much. I have a single one and the othwer 71 are 5.0 How that averages to 4.9 I don't know.
posted on February 28, 2002 12:29:48 PM new
I agree that ebay won't change their system.
I disagree that a 5-point scale is not more meaningful than the current scale. I used to work in a university research department and five point scales are used all the time in research.
Essentially, we have 1 and 2 = negative, 3 = neutral, and 4 and 5 = positive. But clearly having more "shades" of positive and negative is better than just a single lump for each. Sure it's only 2, but being able to give a person a 4 instead of a 5 is more meaningful than giving the 4-person a 1 and the 5-person a 1 as well.
I have a 200 out of 204 uniques (202pos - 2negs). As such, my average is a .980 (on a 1 to -1 scale.
Let's say 1/2 my positives were 4 and 1/2 of them 5s. Likewise 1/2 my negs were 1 and 1/2 were 2. That would be 912 total points (101*4 + 101*5 + 1*1 + 1*2) divided by 204 = 4.47 rating.
On ebay's scale I have an equivalent of a 4.9 rating (5.0 * .980) whereas on a 5-point scale, I have a 4.47. That's a pretty significant difference.
posted on February 28, 2002 01:36:33 PM new
Ebay says to leave feedback when the transaction is over - not when it is half over. The buyer is the one that determines whether or not the transaction is over.
I leave feedback when the buyer lets me know the transaction is over. He can do that by leaving feedback or emailing me. If he emails me that he got the item and is happy with it then I leave feedback. Of course, there is nothing preventing the buyer from emailing me that he is happy with the item, waiting until I leave feedback, and, then claiming that after closer inspection he found a flaw and wants a 50% refund or he'll neg me.
I do not leave retalitory negs. After all, who am I to tell other party how he should judge a transaction? We all have our own expectations as to what makes a good or bad transaction. For example, the last neg that I received was from a woman that took 3 weeks to pay for a $3 item. I received her payment just before Christmas and mailed the item out a couple days later. Two weeks later she negged me because she hadn't received the item. I think that it's a little silly to neg someone after 2 weeks, especially during the Christmas season, but it's her decision. I simply responded to her neg with the facts. If she had contacted me, I would have worked something out, but she left feedback which, to me, indicates the transaction is over.
I leave feedback when the transaction is over for several reasons.
1) Checks bounce. I don't hold checks, so waiting until the buyer tells me transaction is over gives it time to clear in most cases. Of course, that doesn't always work. Once, I had a check returned after 10 months(yes, that's months not weeks).
2) If a person pays in a reasonable amount of time, but needs to return the item because I made a mistake, I still give positive feedback. On the other hand, if he takes 2 months to return the item, he won't get the positive.
3)Scammers will switch items. Fortunately, they're rare. Of course, there are other scams.
4)By leaving feedback or emailing me after the transaction, I'm able to delete the email for the transaction. If I'm not notified one way or another, I hold the email for about 3 months. I send out about a 100 invoices a week, so they email can really pile up.
posted on February 28, 2002 02:02:06 PM new
"Ebay says to leave feedback when the transaction is over - not when it is half over. The buyer is the one that determines whether or not the transaction is over."
posted on February 28, 2002 02:04:49 PM new
Actually, Ebay doesn't even tell you that you have to leave feedback, it is optional for buyer and seller.
I've done this by leaving feedback immediately, and by waiting until the buyer has the merchandise. I prefer waiting until I know they have the merchandise because it protects me from unfair negative feedback. For those who want to leave right away, I find that fine if it works for me. It stopped working for me which is why I changed my policy.
posted on February 28, 2002 02:22:57 PM new
I LEAVE FEEDBACK WHEN I RECEIVE PAYMENT. I DO NOT WAIT UNTIL BUYER LEAVES FEEDBACK, JUST SO I CAN "NEG" HIM IF HE "NEGS" ME. I ENCLOSE A SHEET ASKING FOR FEEDBACK ON THE TRANSACTION WHEN I SEND OUT THEIR ITEM(S) AND IT HAS WORKED VERY WELL.I FEEL IT IS FEEDBACK BLACKMAIL" WHICH I DO NOT AGREE WITH. IF I RECEIVE A NEGATIVE I JUST "RESPOND TO COMMENTS" AND EXPLAIN THE SITUATION THE BEST I CAN.
posted on February 28, 2002 02:54:59 PM new
Obviously, if YOU feel it is blackmail -- then by all means don't do it. Problem is many of us don't feel it is blackmail and/or aren't blackmailing. We just wait until the transaction is complete before assessing the performance of the other party. In our opinion, it's the only proper way to do it.
So what if they paid? The deal isn't done. What if they are the type to make a stink after the fact? What if they stop payment? What if the check bounces? What if they miss the shipment and then blame you for such?
There are too many downsides to leaving feedback upon payment and absolutely none for waiting.
posted on February 28, 2002 03:09:43 PM new
However each individual does it is the correct way beacause that is the way they want to do it. I could care less whether the people I buy from leave feedback before or after I do I do it the same everytime at thats it. For me when I sell I post feedback the day I ship which is the day after I get payment. because I go to the post office daily it is the easiest way for me to insure I leave all the feedback. I have over 8000 positves comments and 6 negs and I think 10 nuetralso it has worked just fine. If others do not do it that way that is fine to whatever the system they have works for me. What drives me crazy is the people that think the way they do it is the only way and everyone else is wrong.
On a side note glad to see we didn't completley run you off the board with your other post Peklk. Like I said on that post no hard feelings glad to have you here. ctually I think that entire post got a bit out of hand.
posted on February 28, 2002 04:02:10 PM new
Nah, I've been here too long and weathered too many arguments to leave. I find I disagree with a person in one thread and agree in another.
posted on February 28, 2002 04:46:36 PM new
I prefer waiting until I know they have the merchandise because it protects me from unfair negative feedback.
So how does posting as soon as payment is received "unprotect" you?
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