posted on March 10, 2002 07:53:09 AM new
Been reading a bit here and there about buyers being put off by a seller's terms of service. I'm curious about what other sellers put in their TOS and why.
I used to be quite lax with my TOS... not specifiying payment due date, etc. But after being burned repeatedly by kids (aargh - keep them away from ebay!) and lazy people and overall deadbeats, I wised up pretty quickly. Now I lay my TOS out specifically and as clearly as possible to avoid any misunderstandings.
Sometimes it seems that buyers just don't understand that I'm doing this for money, not for fun. I'm a concientious seller, I put a lot of effort into my business, and I expect to get paid for it... on time, as my auctions state. I do cut the bidder some slack in my TOS, saying that if they can't get payment to me on time, to contact me. Most problems could be avoided if bidders would only take the two minutes it takes to type an e-mail to let me know what's up. I've heard every excuse in the book for non-payment, and I don't care what the reason is... just let me know what's going on and we'll take it from there.
Anyway...
Do other sellers have success in having a strict TOS, or do you think this puts bidders off?
posted on March 10, 2002 08:20:15 AM new
I have been selling on eBay now for 4 years and quite successful at it. I believe that most buyers do not read the TOS, they simply read the pertinent item info and that is about it. I simply provide an accurate description of the item as well as the shipping cost and forms of payment accepted. If you write a long-winded TOS which says payment must be received in X number of days or expect a negative feedback, it will turn away many potential bidders.
Put as little as possible in your TOS. Simply state the facts and be polite and your bidders will appreciate it.
posted on March 10, 2002 09:18:55 AM new
As a buyer, I can't stand a negative TOS. I really hate to read, 'due to recent problems' or 'my new policy is' [insert negative, negative, negative comments here]. To me, it's like airing your professional laundry in your TOS. I know there is the occasionaly exception were no matter what you do, one crazy customer can't be pleased. If the seller is having repetitive problems, they are doing something wrong somewhere. Threatening potential paying bidders (or in their mind non-paying bidders) is not going to solve their problem. How many of you have heard, 'ever since I added [insert negative, negative, negative comments here] to my TOS it's been smooth sailing'? Frankly, I do even like to see the old faithful 'or appropriate feedback will be left' in a TOS.
These are my basic TOS ingredients which follow a 100% ACCURATE item description.
Payment due within XX days
Payment types accepted
When I ship
How I ship
Cost of shipping (or contact for quote)
Gallery link
Combining multiple wins
Remain upbeat and consistent but the real secrets to success are communication and repetition. I repeat just about everything in the WBN email. I repeat my shipping policy in the payment received email and so on.
It may sound like a lot of work but I use auction management software where I've created 100's of email templates. Usually it's just a matter of click and send.
posted on March 10, 2002 09:23:49 AM new
I have been on eBay close to 4 years and have also found that most bidders do not read the TOS. I make mine very short= Buyer pays shipping and Insurance, Money order or PayPal. NO CHECKS!!!
I am not positive why but when I quit taking checks my deadbeat problem nearly stopped too.
posted on March 10, 2002 09:55:38 AM new
In the last month I have had a couple of dead beats. Ones that have shut off their email so that I can't get through. Now can I state in my auction. I will expect payment to be within 10 days of the close of the auction unless buyer emails me that that is impossible and why? I don't want to get negative about payment but as a previous poster stated I am doing this for money and not pleasure although there is some pleasure in doing this. I have a really short TOS. I mail immediately and I expect (?) payment the same. I don't think that that is unreasonable.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:03:24 AM new
I have no problems with a seller's TOS as long as it is reasonable. I'm more of a seller than a buyer but when I do shop, if I see a TOS like the following I will not bid:
"payment by money order must be received within 7 days of auction closing or negative feedback will be left. Paypal payment must be received within 2 days."
How anal can a person get. I usually do my shopping in the evening and sometimes on Friday or Saturday and I do not go to the post office on weekends. Some times I can't get to the Post office for several days, but I always pay.
I'm not going to risk negative feedback on whether the post office can get the letter delivered on time. The 2 day paypal thing is just ridiculous. Some of our best customers send paypal and billpoint payments 3-5 days after the auction has closed. Refusing payment and filing NPB and Final value fees is ridiculous, especially when the buyer does make an honest attempt to pay.
fergy
Does this really sound logical to you. You are going get rid of "kids.....lazy people and overall deadbeats" by having a harsher TOS? If people want to hurt their business, that's fine but they won't get rid of that many non-payers (they don't care what a seller's terms are) and they won't get bids from serious bidders like me.
If you are really concerned you may add this to your auction listing.
"Payment expected within 10 days or item may be relisted."
This does not have negative implications to a bidder and leaves the door open for you as to how you want to handle the situation. I used to include this in my auctions but want to convey a completely friendly atmosphere.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:22:34 AM new
Marc, your suggestion makes good sense: "Payment expected within 10 days or item may be relisted." Thanks - I'm gonna use it!
This statement lays it out in no-nonsense, yet friendly language, and leaves flexibility for the seller to do what he or she feels is appropriate if those terms are not met.
As for taking checks, I don't believe it would help to stop offering this option to buyers. I receive a LOT of checks - I know some people don't like to use Paypal or go to the trouble of getting an M.O. But if it worked for you getting rid of deadbeats, toolhound, that's great!
posted on March 10, 2002 10:26:31 AM new
The only real TOS needs to be in your EOA, never in your auction. A bidder only wants to know how you need to be paid. I also tell them that their prompt response and payment is to their benefit in that lets me provide them with great service. Save the legalese for your EOA.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:31:08 AM new
My deadbeat problem is PayPal and a check. I would prefer, but open to other option payments, that my BIN be paid by pay paypal as I have built that into my price of the BIN for the buyer to use PayPal.
Marc-I like that sentence and I am going to start to use that. Thanks
posted on March 10, 2002 10:31:29 AM new
Like many others, I think negative TOS can turn off bidders. I know I often move on when faced with them. I have also found that the sellers who want payment in a short amount of time don't often ship very promptly. They are also the ones who say shipping $4 and then send it for 80 cents in stamps.
So for many of us regular bidders, you can bet friendly terms of service results in more bids and more sales.
In fact "terms of service" is a negative in itself, why not just say: "Payment and Shipping Details" and keep it simple.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:40:11 AM new
litlux- I am changing my heading to your suggestion - Great idea. I do ship the next day but in my WBN I say with 24-48 hours as sometimes my work schedule is such that I can't make it. Reason being is that I like to get receipts for my mailing from a main post office because it has the name of the city too which I mail your packages to. Our substations don't have that function. The closest main post office is about 8 miles away and with the long lines at the post office I can't make it to work so then I will wait until the next day because I only work every other day.
posted on March 10, 2002 10:41:28 AM new
When it comes to mentioning payment, I simply state "I accept cash, checks, money orders, Paypal and Billpoint for payment" I do not say "checks will be held for x number of days". If I see this as a buyer, I will not bid. Bidders want there items quickly. I always ship upon receipt of a check and in 4 years have only had 1 bounce and it was due to a software glitch by a bank. As a seller, you need to make the assumption that people in general are decent and honest. Take a look at one of my listings to see an example of how I represent the TOS (dressyourbest).
posted on March 10, 2002 10:56:52 AM new
I do the same in my auction I say I accept Personal checks, Money orders, BidPay and Paypal. But in my WBN I say I accept Personal Checks, which I do not hold, Money Orders, BidPay and PayPal. When someone pays me for an auction with a check I expect that money to be in their account. Not wait x amount of days for them to put it in. If the money isn't in their account then they shouldn't write the check then pay by PayPal.
I do say I have had NPB but I have had only one bad check and the buyer wrote and told me that it was going to bounce and then paid all the payments. I guess I was lucky not like bettylou.
posted on March 10, 2002 11:02:53 AM new
This has been a very informative day here in auctiowatch for me. I am going to impliment new ideas in my auctions and see what happens. Thanks everyone
posted on March 10, 2002 11:04:44 AM new
I've had 5-6 bounced checks since I started selling. This is why I don't ship until they clear. I think I'll change the wording to "checks MAY be held until cleared", per Marc's suggestion about payment due date. Don't know if that will make bidders feel any better about bidding, knowing they still may have to wait a bit longer for their items, but I just don't feel comfortable shipping until I know that money is safe in my account.
posted on March 10, 2002 11:36:13 AM new
I agree that the EOA should really contain most important things. On-line, I try to keep it simple, tell them the forms of payment I accept, shipping fees, plus I emphasize that nobody pays sales tax since I am in a state that does not have sales tax. I get a LOT more bidders from California where I used to live, who I think did not bid because of that.
posted on March 10, 2002 12:16:38 PM new
Most buyers understand the need for a strict TOS, and since they are honest and fair people they are not put off by it because they know some people aren't honest and fair.
I tried a long and strict TOS with favorable results. Got fast payments, no deadbeats, and bidding was not effected.
posted on March 10, 2002 12:30:32 PM new
"if I see a TOS like the following I will not bid..."
Since I'm a bidder who seldom follows a TOS I can share my results about sellers with strict TOS. They are nice people. They only want to avoid the worse buyers. They don't really care if your payment arrives a few days later than the posted limit, they do respect it if you at least email them and say payment is coming, even if it will be late. There may be some bad apples, but I haven't encountered one.
My recommendation is that you bid regardless of how angry or strict the TOS sounds. If you're a type who tends to send payment three weeks late, do not bid. If a crisis comes up and it takes you long time to make payment, email them and send payment mmediately, chances are you'll avoid a neg. Since crisis don't happen often it's not a major concern.
posted on March 10, 2002 03:38:35 PM new
I must say that I agree that most buyers dont spend the time and read those long and drawn out Terms of Service. I know I dont because I know that as soon as I know I've won, which is within 24 hours, I pay immediately. BUT there are those who dont bother to read the payment options and other terms and assume they can take thier time paying as if they ordered from an online store. I say keep in simple and to the point and in item description..who reads all the crap at the bottom of the page and who can possibly remember it if they are bidding on 10 items??
MEOW
posted on March 10, 2002 04:01:26 PM new
I know that most of my bidders do not read my TOS, but at least they are there, and by bidding, they are agreeing to them.
If I didn't have them, then I couldn't get mad when people didn't follow them!
posted on March 11, 2002 10:59:48 AM new
"I just don't feel comfortable shipping until I know that money is safe in my account."
Most bidders don't feel comfortable sending money to a complete stranger either until the item has arrived safe in their home.
One of the sad things about TOS terminology is that there is a presumption that an adversarial relationship will occur or a problem prexists when it does not. If someone trusts me enough to give me their hard-earned money in advance, I ought to be considerate enough to give them the benefit of some trust in return.
posted on March 11, 2002 11:28:13 AM new
mballai wrote:
"Most bidders don't feel comfortable sending money to a complete stranger either until the item has arrived safe in their home."
Good point... however, I'm not forcing buyers to pay by check. I offer credit card payments as well. If a buyer has a problem with the transaction, he or she can file a dispute with their credit card company. But if I send an item before the check clears and the check bounces... well, I'm SOL. I stand by my policy: I don't feel comfortable sending an item to a complete stranger until I have that money in my account, be it by credit card or by check, period.
posted on March 11, 2002 12:45:32 PM new
If you get a chargeback you are out of luck too. The whole thing with checks is that they could bounce weeks later too. While I certainly can understand waiting on a large check (which I wouldn't accept) or a newbie bidder, it's probably better to state no checks accepted or state a fee for bounced ones. You might lose a bidder or two, but you don't penalize anyone or hold up the works that is of no real benefit to you or your bidders. Some policies just have no value payoff.
posted on March 11, 2002 01:39:58 PM new
One thing to consider is to state that you offer insurance to all buyers for $x.xx. This will protect you (from ebay action) if a package that had no insurance is lost in the mail and a buyer reports you to safeharbor. I had a buyer tell me they never got something, replaced it as is my regular policy and then had them claim they didn't get the second one. I had delivery confirmation number but the post office didn't scan it. Still in 4 years I have only had 2 or 3 items go astray without getting them returned to me...
