logansdad
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posted on April 3, 2002 08:38:02 AM new
I have been selling posters on ebay for 5 years. All of my posters are purchased from a legitimate outlet. Recently I was selling a Jeff Buckley poster that was shut down becuase the estate of Jeff Buckley (Jeff Buckley's mom) claimed the auction violated copyright laws. I dont understand how this is possible when the poster clearly has all the copyright information at the bottom of the poster. I have since written to ebay (Safeharbor & Vero) with my rebutal on this issue and have not received a response from them. Has anybody else had problems with the Vero program?
I also need to mention that this is not my first problem dealing with the estate of Jeff Buckley. I had a similar problem 3 years ago in which I was auctioning a poster that the estate of Jeff Buckley was also selling. They shut down that auction as well because they claimed copyright laws were violated. After numerous emails to ebay, I eventually had my auction reinstated then.
Why must I go through this a second time?
It appears the estate of Jeff Buckley does not even know what items are legitimate.
I would appreciate any comments from those that have already had problems from the estate of Jeff Buckley and Vero
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REAMOND
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posted on April 3, 2002 10:07:25 AM new
File a counter-notice. The estate then has 10 days to file in court in YOUR jurisdiction, or eBay allows you to re-list the item.
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InternetEdge
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posted on April 3, 2002 02:38:25 PM new
For counter-notices the time frame is actually 14 days, but the result is the same. They will not answer it and you can relist your item. Sellers don't realize that a large number of VERO's cancel auctions they have no business cancelling, just as a means to harass a seller who they do not want selling an item.
Write Ebay and tell them you want them to send you their standard counter-notice form. You fill in the auction number and your personal info, sign it and FAX it back to them. When you relist the item after 14 days the VERO is not allowed to touch it.
However, in an interpretation of the law that makes no sense whatsover, if you list the same item again after that one sells, Ebay will let the VERO cancel it again and make you go through the process all over!
[ edited by InternetEdge on Apr 3, 2002 02:40 PM ]
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 05:36:06 AM new
The reason eBay requires it on each subsequent listing is to absolve eBay from liability.
The counter notice does not absolve the seller from liability, only eBay. Once eBay is absolved, they no longer have a dog in the fight, that's why the listing is allowed.
Even if allowed to re-list, the seller can still be sued.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 05:56:05 AM new
Is it possible to get a document from your supplier that you can display in your ads proving you have the "rights" to sell your poster(s)? A sort of disclaimer that also states "is not in violation of blah blah blah."
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 06:46:35 AM new
I have seen some sellers include statements in their listings directed at VERO and their legitimate right to sell the item. I don't know how effective it is.
But no matter what you state in your listing, you have to satisfy the VERO member not eBay. Once eBay gets the proper take down notice from the VERO member, eBay must take the auction down, or risk liability.
The way the DMCA works is to absolve the ISP from liability. The way this is accomplished is that the ISP must first receive proper notice from the entity claiming infringement, then the ISP removes the material, but if it chooses not to remove the material, the ISP can also be sued. The "infringer" can file a counter-notice and then the ISP can allow the posting and can not then be sued by the entity claiming infringement. The counter-notice shifts full responsibility to the poster and absolves the ISP.
Something that hasn't been addressed yet is if the material is clearly and blatantly actionable and the ISP allows posting after a counter-notice. Would the ISP still be absolved ? I don't know, but I am sure it will come up sooner or later, since the ISPs have the deep pockets.
The notice and counter-notice protocol protect the ISP, not the other parties.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 06:56:52 AM new
Okay. So the seller files the counter-notice papers and then relists the items. Does the seller then have to pay all new listing fees?
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logansdad
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posted on April 4, 2002 07:17:30 AM new
"Is it possible to get a document from your supplier that you can display in your ads proving you have the "rights" to sell your poster(s)? A sort of disclaimer that also states "is not in violation of blah blah blah.""
My suppliers' website said the poster is an authorized licensed reprint. Meaning the record company is distributing this authorized poster as official Jeff Buckley merchandise.
My beef comes with the Vero program and this particular vero member. An individual can register with the Vero program and then at a whim be able to shut down legitimate auctions because they think the auction is in violation. If the seller disputes the auction and wins there is no consequence to the Vero member who filed the complaint.
As stated previously I ran into a problem with the particular Vero member three years ago with the same issue. After many emails with ebay, I eventually won and was able to list my poster back then. I dont feel I have to do this every time I want to list a Jeff Buckley poster.
This particular Vero memeber who also sells on Ebay is out to sellers who also sell Jeff Buckley items. She rather see people buy Jeff Buckley items from her instead of from other sellers and will try to shut down other people's legitimate auctions.
Those of you who are familiar with this ebay seller know what I am talking about.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 07:42:44 AM new
It's terribly unfair and time wasting to have to continually fight and relist your items. I was hoping the "disclaimer" would be for Vero's benefit and circumvent their yanking your auctions. In other words, they would respond to the Vero member advising them your items were authorized (or whatever term is correct)or legal to sell.
At the very least, they could leave your auctions alone until you had a chance to respond. Copies could be sent to the ISP.
Do you have to pay for all the relistings? If so, these should be reimbursed in fairness to you.
REAMOND's mention of a statement to Vero might at least discourage the Vero member who keeps stopping your auctions. However, I kind of get the feeling that other seller already knows it's ok for you to sell those items, they just want to disrupt your sales. All it takes from them is a few clicks of a mouse to get your auctions suspended. You have to spend weeks scrambling around with Vero.
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logansdad
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posted on April 4, 2002 09:07:59 AM new
"Do you have to pay for all the relistings? If so, these should be reimbursed in fairness to you"
No, I dont have to pay for the relistings.
When ebay cancels an auction they credit the original listing fee. (At least they did at one time. I dont think this has changed, but who knows with all the rule changes at ebay).
"However, I kind of get the feeling that other seller already knows it's ok for you to sell those items, they just want to disrupt your sales. All it takes from them is a few clicks of a mouse to get your auctions suspended. You have to spend weeks scrambling around with Vero."
You are right on the money with this point. The estate of Jeff Buckley is notorious for doing this. Three years ago when I dealt with this they would email bidders and tell them they could purchase items directly through them at a cheaper price. Ebay did nothing to stop this.
I have sent another email to ebay stating I plan to relist the auction after the 14 days have passed if I dont hear from them. I am just worried that after I relist the auction it will be cancelled once again and my auction will be suspended because I have been previously warned about listing this item that supposedly violated copyright laws.
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 09:28:33 AM new
The 14 days is AFTER eBay receives your signed counter-notice.
There are certain things that must be on the counter-notice and it must be in the proper form or eBay will not allow you to re-list.
There is a statement under threat of perjury on the form which you must sign, as well as your contact information, etc..
A counter-notice is not just an email that states you have a right to list and sell the item. It must contain the information and signature as stated in the DMCA.
Also, you don't have to be a VERO member to give a proper take down notice to eBay. As long as the signed form complies with the DMCA, eBay must take down or face liability.
The VERO system allows the member to use faxes and email instead of sending a signed form every time. It is kind of a "signature on file" system.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 09:39:43 AM new
What Vero needs is real-person moderator who can get an agreement (signed?) from the person claiming infringement that would free the seller from having any more auctions pulled.
Unless their goal is sheer harassment, there is no reason not to agree.
I think they are just hoping the seller will get frustrated and give up.
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 10:21:38 AM new
The reasoning behind the DMCA/VERO is precisely NOT to get eBay or other ISPs involved in the contraversy and its associated costs.
AOL and a host of other ISPs all lobbied Congress for this system. The ISPs do not want to be involved in any infringement, libel, or other legal fight deriving from what is posted on their sites by customers - it would cost them money. They told Congress that if there was not some pre-emptive way for them to avoid liability or other costs due to user posted content, they would be sued out of business, and there was no way they could police there sites with millions of postings.
The result is that the entity harmed by the posting must contact the ISP with a signed form to have content removed. The other party uses the counter-notice to help prevent abuses and exert their right to post the content. All the while the ISP is absolved from liability if it follows the DMCA protocol. One or two pieces of paper to file, and the ISP is done with the issue.
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logansdad
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posted on April 4, 2002 11:58:20 AM new
Nowhere on the ebay website does it say I have to send/fax in a signed letter. In the email I received from ebay it said I had to respond with my rebutal. Which I did.
This is taken directly from the auctionwatch site:
"When the item is removed the seller gets the contact information so they can appeal directly to the VeRO member or directly to us," Pursglove said. "When an appeal is made the VeRO member has 14 days to respond to us. If they don't get back to us the item can be put back on the site."
The thing I dont understand is why would someone go through so much trouble to end the auctions of someboday (that in my opinion) is a no-name dead rock star? As if Jeff Buckley was a popular as John Lennon or Michael Jackson. He wasnt. He was a nobody and the only person who is trying to make him popular now is his mother.
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 12:14:30 PM new
," Pursglove said. "When an appeal is made the VeRO member has 14 days to respond to us. If they don't get back to us the item can be put back on the site."
Could the "appeal" Pursglove is refering to mean a counter-notice ?
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logansdad
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posted on April 4, 2002 12:28:12 PM new
REAMOND: Could the "appeal" Pursglove is refering to mean a counter-notice ?
It might. I am not saying you are wrong that I have to mail/fax in a signed document. You seem to know more about this than I do.
When I fought this battle three years ago all my communication was done via email. If ebay does require a document with a signature they should make that clear either in their email cancelling the auction or on their Vero page.
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 01:15:02 PM new
I had a competitor try the VERO routine with me a few years back. I emailed eBay and they told me to contact the creepess that got my auctions pulled to see if the creepess would "allow" me to re-list. eBay said nothing about a counter-notice.
After 2 weeks, someone at eBay recommended I file a counter-notice. eBay is under no duty to tell you about the counter-notice system.
I filed the counter-notice, 14 days after eBay received the counter-notice( I thought it was 10 but I may be wrong), eBay notified me that I could re-list. The VERO member did not initiate a law suit in my jurisdiction within the 14 days, so eBay allowed the re-listing.
I don't know if ebay has modified their VERO program, but the DMCA is pretty clear on what to do if someone infringes on your IP or if you are accused of infringing.
But remember- the counter-notice doesn't absolve you of liabiltity if you are infringing- it just makes the VERO member sh*t or get off the pot with their accusations to eBay.
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logansdad
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posted on April 4, 2002 01:46:54 PM new
Thanks Reamond. I will try emailing the wench that is responsible to getting my auction yanked. I really didnt want to go that route but I guess I dont have a choice this time.
I guess it is Round 2 with "The Estate of Jeff Buckley".
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 01:57:59 PM new
What this boils down to is neither the accuser or the seller wants the expense of hiring a lawyer to sue or mediate this, so it just happens over & over.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 02:02:59 PM new
logansdad,
Keep us posted.
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REAMOND
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posted on April 4, 2002 02:10:58 PM new
I dug through my files- here is a copy of the counter-notice that eBay gave me.
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alwaysbroke
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posted on April 4, 2002 02:49:21 PM new
This reminds me of another thread in which Microsoft was discussed. Microsoft gives the impression that once you buy their stuff, you own it for life.
Nearly everthing that is auctioned has a company name on it and is new or used. This Vero thing is being abused.
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logansdad
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posted on April 5, 2002 06:08:06 AM new
REAMOND: Do you still have a copy of that form in a file format? I tried printing it from above but I only got half of the form.
If you do have a copy of it would you mind sending it to [email protected].
Thanks
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classicrock000
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posted on April 5, 2002 06:25:30 AM new
OKAY--I GIVE UP-WHO THE HELL'S JEFF BUCKLEY??
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hoffy1324
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posted on April 5, 2002 06:46:06 AM new
he he he... I thought I was just dumb. I'm glad someone else doesnt know!
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REAMOND
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posted on April 5, 2002 07:45:42 AM new
Here's the text. I'll remove the picture- it's too big.
COUNTER-NOTICE REGARDING
ENDED AUCTION
I. Penalty of Perjury Statement. I CERTIFY UNDER SWORN PENALTY OF
PERJURY that I am sending this notification on the basis of my good faith belief that the
auctions referred to below do not involve infringing materials or uses and have been
identified by a Verified Intellectual Property Owner, its agent, or law enforcement as
infringing by mistake or due to misidentification: (List Auction Items Below)
II. Consent to Federal Jurisdiction. I consent to the jurisdiction of the Federal District
Court for the address provided below, or if such address is outside the United States, I
consent to jurisdiction of the Federal District Court, County of Santa Clara, California.
III. Consent for Service of Process. I agree to accept service of process from the Verified
Intellectual Property Owner, its agent, or law enforcement.
IV. Contact Information. I certify that the following contact information is accurate and
valid. I acknowledge that eBay will compare the contact information provided herein
with my eBay contact information, and false or fraudulent information may result in
suspension of my eBay account.
V. I understand that my knowing misrepresentation herein that material was removed
by mistake or misidentification may make me liable under federal law for damages,
including costs and attorneys' fees. See 17 U.S.C. section 512.
VI. I understand that if the reporting party disagrees with the Counter-Notice it may me
a legal action against me to prevent the re-Iisting of the ended auctions.
VII. Acknowledgement. I acknowledge that this notice is med under penalty of perjury .
I may be contacted at:
Name
Street Address
City and State
Zip
E-mail
Telephone
Fax
Date
Signature
UNDER SWORN PENALTY OF PERJURY
Send to: eBay Inc., Attn: Legal Counter-Notice, 2145 Hamilton Ave., San Jose, CA 95125.
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logansdad
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posted on April 5, 2002 07:49:22 AM new
classicrock000: OKAY--I GIVE UP-WHO THE HELL'S JEFF BUCKLEY??
He was a rock musician who died a few years ago. He was a no-name when he was alive. His mother is trying to make him more popular not that he no longer alive.
REAMOND: Thanks for the text.
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ohmslucy
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posted on April 8, 2002 10:19:08 PM new
InternetEdge, Hello...
Where/who should I write at eBay to get a copy of the counter-notice?
Lucy
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twinsoft
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posted on April 9, 2002 09:46:42 AM new
Write to [email protected] and ask for the counter-notice form.
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ohmslucy
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posted on April 9, 2002 02:54:50 PM new
Thanks, Twinsoft, I appreciate the info. Lucy
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