posted on April 7, 2002 08:09:25 PM new
I am so tired of sellers adding paypal fees to the cost of their auction. Had one do it today, it was not in their terms of service, in the end of auction notice they said I would have to add money for paypal. Since this was an international transaction, there was no other choice. I sent them a terse email informing them that they were violating ebay's and paypal's policies by asking for this fee, and that if they would rethink their position on asking the fee, I would pay them. They waived the fee, but I wonder how many people they get who pay for it. I found another item I wanted to bid on tonight, but the buyer has right in their terms of service that there is an extra fee for paypal. I decided I will no longer bid in these auctions, and file a complaint with Safeharbor. I'd love to charge a convenience fee for people using paypal as well, but since I can't do it (because I am following the rules) I've decided to go out of my way to report those that do.
posted on April 7, 2002 08:28:43 PM new
I turned in somebody once for both keyword spamming and PayPal fees (the seller had about 5 vertical inches of text with various keywords!). Boy, did it feel good!!! BTW I think it's perfectly legit to include enough in shipping/handling fees to cover fees like that, especially if you work on a very thin profit margin.
Quite some time ago, I bought a huge box of books from a seller who only took checks/money orders. I asked if by any chance she took online payments, and she said that she stopped taking them because of the extra fees. She offered to do it if I paid the fees, which I happily did since I asked for a change in her TOS. I would not be so agreeable if the seller advertised PayPal and then tried to charge me a fee after the auction closed.
posted on April 7, 2002 08:35:14 PM new
I wouldn't complain about shipping fees unless they advertised one rate, and charged another. They were asking $2 to ship this item, which basically could be placed inside a 1 ounce letter rate envelope, so it would only cost them about 80 cents to ship. I figured the extra $1.20 would cover the paypal charges, and ebay charges, which are fine with me - I agreed to pay the $2 for shipping, I did not agree to pay a paypal surcharge!
posted on April 8, 2002 06:45:28 AM new
Sellers who pull these sort of stunts are simply cheap and would rather nickel and dime a customer to death rather than do business in a straightforward way. Of course, they turn bidders off, but what do they care, they got theirs, right?
I would send the email asking for the fee to both ebay and paypal. I think these sellers are poisoning our future.
posted on April 8, 2002 07:52:05 AM new
Personally I can not understand sellers who do this. It only agitates and alienates the buyer from purchasing from them. What gets me is the sellers who do this I guess have no clue on how selling is done. After all retail stores, mail order houses and on-line retails all have fees that are charged to them for credit card processing. You don’t see Wall-Mart for example at the check out telling you there is an additional credit card usage fee of .50 because you’re not paying by cash. The price of what is known as “doing business” is added onto the cost of the item as is the cost of advertising, employees, over head and all the other expenses they have to incur to pay the rent, pay employees, advertise and buy more merchandise.
When a seller does this its petty and shows they just don’t understand the real world of business. If I’m selling an item on eBay I figure my cost of doing business as my listing fee, FVF, cost of goods, and the cost of any other services I am paying for such as image hosting, PayPal, etc. These costs are added to the wholesale cost of my item then I figure how much I need to sell my item for then add in shipping & handing. It makes no sense at this point to either tell my buyer or tell them later on top of the bid they placed they need to pay my PayPal fee, retailers don’t do it and neither do I.
Heath & happiness
"The Colonel"
[ edited by kolonel22 on Apr 8, 2002 07:52 AM ]
posted on April 8, 2002 08:17:40 AM new
Don't tolerate this type of behavoir. These sellers rely on the fact that most people won't take the time to report them. Take the time!!! Report them to eBay and move on. I would refuse to pay the fees. If they wish to report you or leave a neg then let them. This behavoir is totally against the rules and they know it-they are just trying to rob you. If they refuse to ship the item unless you pay the fees report them again for failing to complete the transaction. They will have a hard time trying to explain why they refused to ship your item. Send your emails from them to safeharbor. They won't be selling for very long. I do not understand this short-sighted behavoir from certain sellers. They are poster children for the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish".
posted on April 8, 2002 09:01:16 AM new
The person who decided to remove the surcharge, I am not going to turn into ebay. At most, I will leave neutral feedback explaining what happened. It is on my buyer account, so I do not care if I get a retalitory neg.
For the other, I would hope a warning would come instead of suspension. I have bookmarked the page now for reporting, so I have decided that anytime I see in the terms of service on an auction page I am looking at, I will just file a report. It is pretty fast and easy to do. If someone invoices me and tries to add fees that are not listed (I will not bid on an auction that requires an additional fee for paypal) I will tell them they must remove the fee, or I will not pay for the lot.
posted on April 8, 2002 09:02:15 AM new
"Sick and Tired..."
Talk about wasted energy, and it's making you sick and tired. I understand your point but sometimes rationality needs to be employed. Seller tacks on $1.00 paypal surcharge. Buyer figures, "ok I'm a little upset but at least I don't have to pay for postage, don't have to write out a check; or buy a money order; order will be shipped out faster. Seller would have included the paypal fee in the handling anyway, so I can live with it."
That is better than getting sick and tired. Choose your battles wisely or you will spend your life in war!
"What gets me is the sellers who do this I guess have no clue on how selling is done. After all retail stores, mail order houses and on-line retails all have fees that are charged to them for credit card processing."
Auctions are not retail. It is not fixed price. Auctions tend to be wholesale pricing, and the buyer is typically buying one item at wholesale. Very difficult for sellers to make a profit so it makes perfect sense for sellers to try other means to recoup overhead.
"Don't tolerate this type of behavoir. These sellers rely on the fact that most people won't take the time to report them. Take the time!!! Report them to eBay and move on. I would refuse to pay the fees."
It's either pay the fees in the handling or pay the surcharge, so by reporting the seller, he will change his procedure and charge you the extra handling, and what have you accomplished? You're still paying the same fee! It's just crazy to expand so much energy on something where you will not benefit.
If buyers were really smart, they woud realize that sellers who charge a surcharge after the fact may bring in more buyers, and more buyers brings the volume where the seller can obtain volume discounts, and thus sell items for less. Buyers are saying, "add the fee to the item price," which drives up the FVF to the selelr which drives upthe price to the bueyr.
Try to use your heads for once and don't think short term.
I choose my battles very wisely. Reporting takes about 20 seconds of my time, and these are items I am looking to buy, I am not going around to find people doing this just to report them.
Now, the best reason to report. Let's say I sell the same item. I charge $3 for shipping and handling, and in that handling charge I will cover paypal expenses. The seller charges $2 for shipping and handling, and then says add $1 for paypal (or they don't say it, but invoice you for it after you won) - That person really has an unfair advantage over me, because with a lower shipping and handling fee, they might get the bid, and I won't. There is more involved if you think about it, it is called self preservation. Yes, I am annoyed as a buyer to be subjected to these fees, but I am also annoyed a a seller for someone getting away with something that those that abide by the rules do not get away with.
>>"At most, I will leave neutral feedback explaining what happened."<<
If the seller was agreeable enough to not charge you the surcharge, why not just not leave any feedback at all and let the matter drop completely. It could be this seller has learned his or her lesson.
I had a case of a lady that had a fit over a 75 cent handling fee. I promptly waived the handling fee for her as a gesture of kindness, even though she was quite nasty about it. She paid the fee anyway and then mentioned it if feedback. It felt like a kick in the teeth.
Leaving neutral feeback and mentioning this incident would make you look, at least to this seller, like a vindictive person.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Apr 8, 2002 09:23 AM ]
posted on April 8, 2002 09:19:28 AM new
ahc3, your true colors are shining through, you report these sellers to level the playing field. What a moral person you are! I suppose you want a pat on the back. Can't you think of more productive solutions to your problem? Why not advertise in your listing you do not charge paypal fees?
You all may have been raised to act helpless. As adults you should try to help yourself rather than crying to "daddy."
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Apr 8, 2002 09:24 AM ]
posted on April 8, 2002 09:41:58 AM new
outoftheblue - That is at most. I may leave no feedback, I don't know right now, I will think about it. The problem is that this seller will go ahead and just charge the next person, so a neutral that says "seller tried to charge paypal fee, this is against ebay's policy" - I will decide later what to do.
quickdraw - You don't believe in a level playing field? I'm not saying everyone should be equal but people should not be doing "illegal" things that others don't do. There are no true colors to hide, I am quite open with my goals. What does morality have to do with this? Maybe you are confused as to what it means? I think charging someone a fee on top of anything agreed to, that is basically against the rules to charge is not a moral way of doing business? Sounds like you add paypal fees to your auctions the way you are talking.
posted on April 8, 2002 10:04:31 AM new
The great thing about the marketplace is that everyone always has a level playing field. Someone doing something "illegal" risks being suspended and receiving numerous negs. If you're doing things legally, you gain buyers trust, so that is your advantage if you choose to promote that.
posted on April 8, 2002 11:02:06 AM new
Sorry, I'll have to take the opposite view on this. Buyers are nickle and dimeing ME to death ! International sellers don't read any of my TOS and send $1.75 *(my US rate) via paypal and then i have to begin the long process of getting the rest of the $$$... Winners of five or six items happily click a payment thru on each item at a time, .41 cents times five, but thats not supposed to bother me. I got a payment for a 400.00 item and Paypal got 14.00. I could have waited a week ! I challenge any BUYER to make an honest list of the reasons they like Paypal and then tell me why those reasons do not merit a 40-50 cent fee allocated to THEM by Paypal instead of the seller. The paperwork, the paying into the account, the worries about chargebacks, payments sent into dead accounts because the buyer types the wrong words... I have always thought Paypal/Billpoint were a godsend to the buyers, not the sellers, but the sellers don't want the fee. They pay none when they bid, they pay none when they order. Sellers pay it all. I'm surprised sellers aren't upset over the 34 cent stamp they have to use to make a snail mail payment. I stopped using both pay systems about a month ago and now started up again because so many bidders requested it. (actually not a single bidder has asked why i stopped taking Billpoint. ) To offset the fees (which are NOT small at 25 auctions a day) I extended auctions to 10 days instead of seven, raised post/pack from 1.75 to $2 and changed my base bid from $4.50 to $5.00. I also have a passage in my TOS that states, to effect, "if you enjoy the convenience of using paypal/billpoint, please consider those benefits when you use either system." People have begun to 'tip' based on that line. -Dave
posted on April 8, 2002 11:20:50 AM new
I am a buyer and a seller, so I can see both sides. I have no problem with paying associated fees if they are listed and declared up front. Paypal is a convenience and there associated costs with it... depending on what the person's margins are, they can loose money on the item, by the time eBay takes its pint of blood, etc...
I mean after all if the person only takes money orders, for example, it will cost you a lot more.
For sellers it can be a no win situation. I have had buyers complain when I wanted to charge them for padded envelopes etc. If the person balks and the item is damaged (and they were too cheap to insure) you get negative feedback because they say you packed it poorly. Supplies do cost money, just like faster shipping costs more money too. You get what you pay for.
Again, I am not advocating some arbitrary fees. I have seen more than my fair share of people bulking up their margins by high shipping or handling fees, but if the person is itemizing their charges and passing them on to you, as long as they are upfront, then i have no problem.
Likewise I deal a lot as both a buyer and seller internationally. I have no problem paying for bank fees to convert the currency etc, because it fits within my margins... When I bid, I account for this upfront to make my decision how high to go.
So let me ask you... If someone wanted to pay you in a money order payable in Euros and your bank was going to charge you $10, shouldn't you be able to pass that fee along?
Look on the brightside and go to a "Real" Auction like Southey's sometime. You have to pay a COMMISSION on top of your bid.. I think they are around 15% or higher...
posted on April 8, 2002 11:30:51 AM new
"So let me ask you... If someone wanted to pay you in a money order payable in Euros and your bank was going to charge you $10, shouldn't you be able to pass that fee along?"
My terms of service strictly say all payment must be in US funds. I think if I wanted to make an arrangement with a buyer, then it would be fair to pass that along.
Paypal is different, both ebay and paypal have it in their terms of service that you can not add a surcharge. Mastercard and Visa are the same.
There ARE better ways to do it. You can advertise a discount for paying with a check or money order. It may seem like semantics, but that is not against their terms.
I am NOT against sellers making up some of these fees, I am a seller and I find that reasonable. I just want everyone on an equal field, not doing something that is not allowed. I think it is especially bad to ask for an extra surcharge that is not in your terms. I doubt that person ever got called on that action.
posted on April 9, 2002 03:44:23 PM new
Quickdraw....I like your general way of thinking (economists call it the "lost opportunity cost" factor - time and energy have value, just like money.) That kind of balancing test has been really useful for me.
But that equation is a very personal one - and the trick is to be aware of what matters to you and what's worth investing a bit more time and effort in, instead of getting swept away by emotion.
For you, the relatively small dollar value versus the chore of challenging the seller don't equal out. But some people are hard-wired with a very strong sense of "justice" and it causes them a lot of stress to let things that they perceive as unjust slide.
Stress is the worst energy thief there is, and telling someone else that they shouldn't be upset about something doesn't help when they're really, truly upset. I differentiate this from getting caught up in a confrontational situation, where tempers escalate. I try to avoid that if at all possible.
I'm no crusader, but in this case, I think I probably would take issue with an extra, undisclosed fee - if only to discourage a practice I see as bad for eBay as a whole. I would try to be as non-confrontational as possible, and make sure I leave the seller an "out."
posted on April 9, 2002 09:16:54 PM new
"It's either pay the fees in the handling or pay the surcharge, so by reporting the seller, he will change his procedure and charge you the extra handling, and what have you accomplished? You're still paying the same fee! It's just crazy to expand so much energy on something where you will not benefit. "
I don't add a surcharge, and I accept the PayPal fees as part of the cost of doing business. When I can't make a buck, I'll quit or change gears. Seems to me that a lot of sellers are still operating under the assumption that internet commerce ought to be cost free.
The benefit of spending this energy lies in helping get rid of less than straightforward sellers on Ebay, who give all of us a bad name, and help to create the increasingly antagonistic, suspicious customers you read so much about on this board.
"If buyers were really smart, they woud realize that sellers who charge a surcharge after the fact may bring in more buyers, and more buyers brings the volume where the seller can obtain volume discounts, and thus sell items for less. Buyers are saying, "add the fee to the item price," which drives up the FVF to the selelr which drives upthe price to the bueyr."
Not all sellers deal in volume stuff they bought from some wholesaler. I sell one of a kind antiques. People who buy my items are looking specifically for that item, not the best price on a widget, so the volume concept is meaningless. I advertise PayPal and am willing to eat the fee if it means I get paid quicker, nobody forces me to do this. To specify a PayPal fee after the fact is not only against the rules, it's deceptive and should not be tolerated.
"Try to use your heads for once and don't think short term."
Using my head and thinking long term to me means being square with my buyers, and expecting them to be square with me. It becomes increasingly hard to do that with the amount of nickel-dimers and outright frauds on Ebay who are making life miserable for everyone....
posted on April 9, 2002 09:51:12 PM new
profe51 - You need to think this through. I do this as a seller and buyer
Let's say we sell the same product (Which we sort of do, I buy to resell) - I charge $3 shipping/handling, he charges $2 - Somewhere in his terms of service, or not even mentioning the fact, he has an illegal surcharge. If a bidder sees my auctions and his auctions, they will think, why this guy charges $2 and the other $3, I think I will go with the guy who charges less.
I am thinking long term. I want ALL fees stated in the same area, so bidders can compare that. It IS to my advantage to have him change his ways and show all fees in the shipping/handling amount, no seperated into different areas that makes it seem less expensive than it really is.
posted on April 9, 2002 10:26:01 PM new
>>"I accept the PayPal fees as part of the cost of doing business."<<
That is your oppinion I guess. I consider this cost of doing business thinking to be total BS. A lot of companies are cutting corners any way they can just to survive. Usually the corners they cut are right through the middle of their workforce. Most do pass on these extra costs to the consumer in one way or another.
Little expenses, such as PayPal fees add up in a hurry and, contrary to popular belief, can put you out of business. For instance we have saved hundreds of dollars just by switching to free delivery confirmation. We are always looking for ways to shed these extra costs. We are now making an extra 40 cents per transaction and are using that to offset the cost of PayPal fees.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Apr 9, 2002 10:30 PM ]
posted on April 9, 2002 11:12:30 PM new
I believe that by not offering paypal, it makes you less competitive. That could also put you out of business. It's tough, and you have to do what you feel is best for your business. I have a merchant account, and paypal fees are in line with what I pay with them too. The problem I have with paypal are the constant changes in their terms. My terms have been pretty steady for the past 6 years with my merchant account, paypal seems to change every few months.
posted on April 9, 2002 11:34:51 PM new
"I don't add a surcharge, and I accept the PayPal fees as part of the cost of doing business."
There you have it, you are competing on price. Large corporations with millions of dollars in the bank practice price cutting to steal away market share, I don't have millions of dollars in the bank so I don't practice this method. I offer my buyers value, and that's the business practice I prefer because it is profitble. I guess you are loaded to eat the overhead.
"Not all sellers deal in volume stuff they bought from some wholesaler. I sell one of a kind antiques."
This shouldn't mean you couldn't lower your prices if you had lowered your overhead. Lower prices generate higher sell through which again saves you time and money of relisting, and the buyer benefits.
"Using my head and thinking long term to me means being square with my buyers, and expecting them to be square with me. It becomes increasingly hard to do that with the amount of nickel-dimers and outright frauds on Ebay who are making life miserable for everyone...."
Maybe you think those who cover their overhead are scammers. That is messed up thinking. Maybe you forget a business is not acting as a charity, it is there to generate profits. Yes criminals do make life miserable for everyone, but that seems irrelevant to this discussion.
How does being square with buyers become difficult for you when other sellers are nickle & diming buyers? Wouldn't that be a competitive advantage on price for you?
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Apr 9, 2002 11:44 PM ]
posted on April 10, 2002 05:19:16 AM new
Looks like I touched a nerve. I don't have a problem with a seller adding a handling fee, a packing fee, a recycled electron fee or whatever he wants to call it, as long as it is stated on the auction page up front, in clear terms. From there I can decide if I want to bid or not. What I object to is sellers like the one I dealt with a week or so ago, who stated that he preferred PayPal, had the logo on his auction, and made no mention of additional fees beyond shipping and insurance. When his generic EOA message gets to me, his instructions state "Buyers wishing to pay with PayPal please add 8.00 to your total"!!!! You can philosophize all you want about passing the cost of doing business on to the customer, and I'll agree with a lot of it, but this is deceptive selling and needs to be dealt with. I copy/pasted Ebay and PayPal's rules regarding adding fees as well as changing TOS to him and said that I preffered not to complete the sale. He replied with an apology and professed ignorance, said that he understood my position and would let me out of the sale if that was my choice, and offered to reduce his PayPal fee to 6.00!! He clearly knew he was over a barrel. I probably should have reported him, because I realize now that he got off easy and will continue selling in this manner until someone does.
I don't like PP's fees any more than the next person, and whether I'm "loaded" enough to accept them as part of my cost of doing business is immaterial to this discussion.If you want to charge a fee, you should put it in your TOS, that's all I'm saying, anything less is dishonest......
posted on April 10, 2002 07:57:47 AM newI believe that by not offering paypal, it makes you less competitive. That could also put you out of business.
You can believe any sort of nonsense you like. That doesn't make it true.
We have two selling IDs. Three other eBay sellers sell the same items from the same source. We don't take PP, BP or any credit cards. We hold positions 1 and 2 in our category in sales. The other three take every form of payment known to man. They must be part-timers.
If bidders want it and perceive it as a good value, they will buy.
posted on April 10, 2002 08:13:57 AM new
It is very rare for any seller to list additional fees seperate in the auction. Once in a while a seller will list handling seperate, but that too is rare. Also, listing a paypal fee in the auction seperate is supposedly against ebay's policy, although that makes absolutely no sense because a buyer should have a choice to pay it or not by making a bid or passing.
What you should do is leave (neutral maybe) feedback, and state you were charged a seperate Paypal fee. Next time the seller can just charge everyone (including cash customers) the paypal fee and that will make people like profe51 happy.
posted on April 10, 2002 09:11:15 AM newWhat gets me is the sellers who do this I guess have no clue on how selling is done.... The price of what is known as doing business is added onto the cost of the item as is the cost of advertising, employees, over head and all the other expenses they have to incur
I do agree in principle, however there are a couple of things you are overlooking. First, many businesses do not accept credit cards for small purchases. Retail stores generally sell both expensive items and cheap items, so they are willing to take a loss on the occasional nut who pays for a pack of gum by credit card. But an eBay seller who specializes in items under $10 would be taking a big cut just to offer this convenience to bidders.
The other thing is that building all fees into your "price" or opening bid doesn't work like in retail stores. In a retail store, the cost of selling a $1,000 item is the same as selling a $1 item. Not so at eBay. Listing fees are increased for the seller as are FVFs. So it's logical to separate the actual bid price from other fees.
Having said that, I would never ever pay a fee that wasn't explictly stated in the ad.
I don't take Paypal. It's not worth the extra paperwork and cost for me to get proof of delivery on inexpensive items. I have had problems with Paypal because of scammer bidders. My terms are stated in the ad: checks (under $20), money order or credit card via BidPay. This week I had a customer send me 13 one dollar bills in an envelope. That made me feel great but it almost never happens.
Adding a fee for credit cards is against the law in CA and is a violation of eBay and Paypal rules. I might leave neutral feedback just to let the seller know what they are doing is wrong, and hopefully a few non-positive feedbacks will help the seller reevaluate his practice.
posted on April 10, 2002 09:35:13 AM new
kolonel22
>>"You don’t see Wall-Mart for example at the check out telling you there is an additional credit card usage fee of .50 because you’re not paying by cash."<<
No, Wall-Mart doesn't but have you attempted to use a debit card at McDonalds or Arco? Arco charges a 35 cent transaction fee and Mcdonalds charges a 50 cent transaction fee. Other companies are doing the same.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Apr 10, 2002 09:36 AM ]
