posted on November 16, 2002 08:45:22 AM new
Hi all,
I sold a battery charger(about 18$ total) to a Canadian buyer back in mid-October. I mailed him his package airmail, and within a week he became indignant about not receiving his package yet and asking for a tracking number. I told him to wait a little bit longer, and explained to him that airmail doesn't have tracking number.
About a week later (so two weeks have passed at this point, beginning of November) he emails all angry again, and I decide to send him another charger. I re-confirmed his address, and I send it airmail again. He again asks for a tracking number, and I tell him the same thing again. Maybe I should have sent it EMS, but I doubt he would have been willing to pay for it.
And now he's complaining again that he hasn't received this second charger either (yesterday, actually). He's become indignant again and even filed a complaint with Safeharbor, which ticks me off to nth degree. In his safeharbor complaint, he wants me to send another charger, with tracking number, or a refund.
Basically, I see two things. I feel that he's trying to using the fact that airmail doesn't provide a tracking number to get more items and his money back for a few reasons:
1. He is a 100+ feedback member and obviously knows his way around ebay and shipping, and keeps nagging about a tracking number when I keep explaining the situation to him.
2. I don't know what the rates of lost mail are, but say 99% of all mail is delivered, so then 1% of mail doesn't make it for some reason, damaged, lost or otherwise. That means the probability for 2 packages to be (to the same address and person) lost is 1% * 1%, which is .01%, which is damn near zero, ie it doesn't happen. Practically speaking, it's impossible.
What I want to do is write back to him, and respond to safeharbor as such:
"Since it's almost impossible for two packages to the same person to be lost, either a) his mail is getting stolen, or b) this buyer is being dishonest about not receiving his package. In either situation, there is fraud being committed, and I will have to file reports with the UNited States Postal Service's Fraud unit and Canada Post's Fraud unit to resolve this situation. In the event that they do find that both packages were truly lost, I will then refund the buyer's money."
I know I don't really have any protection for myself in terms of protection and proof of shipping, other than the odds of lost mail and suspicious feelings. I'd refund his money, but I'm afraid he'll pull the lost mail bit again and cash in three of my checks before I can stop payment on it, and I'm just pissed off by his attitude. And secondly, I'm hoping my threat of bringing in fraud investigators will smoke the truth out of him. I know it's an empty threat...but...
Any advice or thoughts would be greatly appreciated....thanks!
posted on November 16, 2002 09:10:02 AM new
Hi tc!
I don't really ship out of the US but other than that, your experience with 'missing' items is the same as mine.
Waaaaay less than 1% of shipments actually 'disappear'.
Either the addy is bad or the recipient is!
The strange part is his contact with SafeHarbor ~ can you verify the authenicity of your communication from SH?
I'm not sure if I wqould know the difference between a 'real' e-mail from SafeHarbor or not.
Sounds like perhaps this is a competitor who is trying to put a bit of stress in your life?
posted on November 16, 2002 10:01:06 AM new
Next time you mail items outside the U.S., get a USPS certificate of mailing. Will cost you a few cents, but it has all tha data (where shipped to & etc) & is hand stamped. Show the item was mailed.
In this case I would not wait to file a complaint against this dishonest person.
Insurance is available for Canadian shipments. I would edit my TOS to state that insurance is manditory (because of dishonest bidders) for Canadian bidders.
[ edited by bear1949 on Nov 16, 2002 10:03 AM ]
posted on November 16, 2002 10:42:47 AM new
I certainly wouldn't send him another one. He may be restocking his inventory. LOL!
And, you're lucky that he didn't recharge his battery and return the charger to you as "defective". That scenario happened to me with an expensive auto tool. There are some creative schemes going on among buyers.
To clarify, he used the tool to repair his car and then returned it for a refund. The tool was one which was rarely used under ordinary circumstances and the cost was over 80.00. We could find nothing wrong with the tool...not even a scratch.
posted on November 16, 2002 11:46:56 AM new
I get this problem all the time with my US and non-US customers. Both packages are probably waiting at the customer's post office.
Often, the mail carrier forgets to leave a message to the customer saying that the package is available at the post office. And so the package ends up sitting on a shelf for weeks. Meanwhile, the seller and the customer suspect each other of being crooks!
Tell the customer to call or stop by his post office!
posted on November 16, 2002 01:34:22 PM new
I'm in Canada and it's not unusual for a package from the U.S. to take two or three weeks to reach me. (Don't forget that the package can be held up in Customs too).
Just this week I received an ordinary letter (which certainly wouldn't be held up in customs) which was in transit for 14 days - as verified by the postmark.
posted on November 16, 2002 01:39:52 PM new
By the way, mail going diagonally (e.g. from California to eastern Canada) takes a lot longer than mail going vertically (e.g. from Florida to eastern Canada).
I know because I used to live in Toronto and mail from Florida was very quick and mail from California was very slow. When I moved to Alberta (western Canada), the opposite was true with mail from California being much quicker than mail from Florida.
posted on November 16, 2002 05:32:16 PM new
What makes me suspicious is his initial anger. I mean, if he's been an eBay user for as long as you say, then he knows that anything can go wrong and eventually he'll experience each and every instance of "go wrong", and that usually a bit of patience and common sense results in "problem solved." Being that he's Canadian and being that one of the Canadians' favorite gripes is the inefficiency of their mail system, then his quickness to anger is even more suspect.
On the other hand, it does seem a bit strange that he would attempt to pull this stunt again, what with all those transactions under his belt and the relative low cost of the item sent to him. Doesn't seem worth the trouble.
Here's what I suggest: Once more, send him a sincere and pleasant email explaining the problem and your desire to figure out what is happening. Ask him to contact his local post office to rule them out as the culprits. Double check the address: remember when sending to Canada it is properly addressed as follows:
NAME
STREET ADDRESS
TOWN PROVINCE POSTAL CODE
CANADA
Be careful also with the number/letter arrangement of their postal code, which is easy to screw up. I had a package returned to me from Canada three months after mailing because I had incorrectly printed the postal code. Luckily buyer and I had agreed after some time that this was probably the problem and we simply waited for the package to be returned to me. And then I reshipped with the correct code. (By the way, it was a one-of-a-kind item).
Or . . . contact his local police station and state the problem. Get their address and mail the package there. Tell him where to pick it up. If he fails to show, it may tell you and the polcie something. Ask them to contact his postal carrier to see whether he/she remembers delivering the package.
[ edited by mjh2 on Nov 16, 2002 05:37 PM ]
[ edited by mjh2 on Nov 16, 2002 05:39 PM ]
[ edited by mjh2 on Nov 16, 2002 05:43 PM ]
[ edited by mjh2 on Nov 16, 2002 05:54 PM ]
posted on November 16, 2002 05:41:12 PM new
The postal code belongs on the same line as the town/city and province. Direct quote from the Canada Post web site:
The municipality, province and postal code should always appear on the same line with two spaces between the Province and the Postal Code.
posted on November 16, 2002 05:48:26 PM new
Canada
Postcode
Address formats General guidelines:
- The address should preferably be written in capital letters
- Punctuation should not be used unless it is part of a proper name (e.g. ST. JOHN’S);
accents are not regarded as punctuation; the # symbol and the abbreviation No are to
be avoided
- Postal codes must be printed in upper case with the first three characters separated
from the last three by one space
- Only non-proportional fonts should be used
- Lines should contain no more than 40 characters, including spaces
- The height of characters should be between 2 mm and 5 mm (10 to 12 points)
- Space between address lines must be at least 0.5 mm but there must be no more than
one blank line
Examples Private address:
JOHN JONES
MARKETING DEPT
10-123 ½ MAIN STREET NW 10 is the unit number (e.g. apartment)
MONTREAL QC H3Z 2Y7 QC is the province abbreviation
CANADA
PO Box address:
JOHN JONES
1425 JAMES ST additional information
PO BOX 4001 STN A PO BOX + box No.+ postal installation name
VICTORIA BC V8X 3X4
CANADA
Rural route address:
CLAUDE M UNTEL
2364 7TH CONCESSION the home address may be added above the rural route
SITE 6 COMP 10 site, compartment, lot/concession number
RR 8 STN MAIN RR + route no. + name of postal installation
MILLARVILLE AB T0L 1K0
CANADA
6 alphanumeric characters (ANA NAN) to
the right of the province, with a space
between the 3rd and 4th characters
Postcode type and position
MS. UNETELLE
SERVICE DU MARKETING
10-123 ½ RUE BEAUDRY NO
MONTREAL QC H3Z 2Y7
CANADA
H 3 Z 2 Y 7
Coding method
local delivery unit
forward sortation area
Canada
General delivery (poste restante):
Mr UNTEL
GD STN A GD (general delivery) + name of postal installation
CALGARY AB T0H 1A0
CANADA
Contact NATIONAL PHILATELIC CENTER Tel: +1 800 565 4362
75 ST NINIAN ST Fax: +1 902 867 6546
ANTIGONISH NS B2G 2R8
CANADA
Information The Canadian Addressing Guide shows the most technologically efficient formats for
addressing. It can be downloaded from the Web at the following address:
http://www.canadapost.ca/offerings/address_management/can/addressing_guide-e.asp.
The Canadian Postal Standards set out the technical standards required by the Canada
Post computerized mail processing systems.
Province symbols Alberta AB
British Columbia BC
Manitoba MB
New Brunswick NB
Newfoundland NF
Northwest Territories NT
Nova Scotia NS
Nunavut NU
Ontario ON
Prince Edward Island PE
Quebec QC
Saskatchewan SK
Yukon YT
Help send RALPHIE to school! Please click: http://www.sparedollar.com?ref=260 I LOVE ENDICIA!!!! http://www.endicia.com/default.cfm?referredby=a112
posted on November 16, 2002 05:53:11 PM new
I stand corrected. I edited my above-statement to reflect the correct method. Thanks.
[ edited by mjh2 on Nov 16, 2002 05:55 PM ]
posted on November 16, 2002 07:36:06 PM new
I think your package is in customs. They can take any where from two to four weeks to process the packages. Depending on how you filled out the customs form will determine if it is being held up. If you put a return address as a business or marked the box "merchandise" you are locked in the customs office grip. Most likely the package is being held for the customer to pick up and pay duty. If you shipped to Quebec or Ontario they are the worst for holding up packages. Your customer may also not want to pay the duty and is claiming he didn't receive it. You should always have some form of tracking to Canada in order to check the customs office. Good luck.
posted on November 16, 2002 08:10:47 PM new
Send him one more charger. This time declare the value for customs as $2500.00. When customs hands him the bill, you'll be able to hear the scream all the way to the Gulf coast, followed up by a multitude of obscene and threatening emails. At least you'll know it got there o.k.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on November 16, 2002 08:29:13 PM new
tc61380,
Just a thought... but you should be able to at least prove that you sent these packages to the bidder. When you send out a package to another country, half of the customs form is affixed to your package... the other half is a record that is retained by your local post office. Your post office should have these records on file, and might be able to provide you copies to provide support to your claim of shipment. I tend to agree with the rest of the posters that your package is probably stuck in customs. Hope that helps!
posted on November 17, 2002 10:43:47 AM new
Thanks all for your advice...about the customs form, I put some stamps onto the package and dropped it in the mailbox (it's less than a pound), so I don't have a customs form. >P...i haven't had problems with this before, all my packages to Canada have arrived safely.
Also, I realized he filed TWO complaints with me. One with ebay safeharbor, and one with squaretrade. He also changed the closing date of the auction on the square trade complaint to 9/16/02 (the closing date was really 10/16/02).
Here is my response to his complaints.
ebay safeharbor
Against: Thomas Chen
Web Site: ebay.com
Date Complaint Filed: Nov-15-02 20:53:54 PST
Purchase date: Oct-16-02 19:01:10 PDT
Nature of Complaint: I sent a payment but never received any merchandise.
The following are ALL of the comments provided to the Fraud Reporting System regarding this complaint:
11/15/2002 08:56 PM - FROM: *****
--------------------------------------
I sent him the money and he never sent the item. It has been several weeks and he claimed he would send another one, which has also not come.
My response: I mailed two chargers airmail. It's highly unlikely, almost impossible that two packages to the same person were lost, so either Mr. ***** mail is being stolen or he is not being honest about receiving the chargers.
Also, customs can stall the package for a few weeks. I don't know if Mr. ****** checked his local post office or mail receiving center, many times packages are there since the post office forgets to leave a message for the receiver. Approximately four weeks have passed, and I sent one package out a few days after the auction, a second one on 11/7/02. International mail, by its nature, can be slower than domestic mail. I feel that Mr. ***** is being somewhat impatient.
In any event, due to the rare nature of two packages lost, I will contact the United STates Postal Service's and Canada Post's fraud unit to find out what happened to the packages.
Squaretrade
* Mr. ********* claims the following problems:
Payment sent but merchandise not received.
No response to my messages.
* And provided these further details:
I sent him money, and he never sent the item. It has been several weeks, he said it must have gotten lost in the mail and that he would send another item, but that also has not come.
Step 2 - Tell your side of the story:
* Payment sent but merchandise not received.
I sent the merchandise.
Other. Please enter additional details.
My response: I mailed two chargers airmail. It's highly unlikely, almost impossible that two packages to the same person were lost, so either Mr. ******* mail is being stolen or he is not being honest about receiving the chargers.
Also, customs can stall the package for a few weeks. I don't know if Mr. ***** checked his local post office or mail receiving center, many times packages are there since the post office forgets to leave a message for the receiver.
Third, the auction closed on 10/16/02, NOT 9/16/02 as written in this complaint. Approximately four weeks have passed, and I sent one package out a few days after the auction, a second one on 11/7/02. International mail, by its nature, can be slower than domestic mail. I feel that Mr. ***** is being somewhat impatient.
In any event, due to the rare nature of two packages lost, I will contact the United STates Postal Service's and Canada Post's fraud unit to find out what happened to the packages.
* No response to my messages.
Other. Please enter additional details:
My response: ****** sends me several emails in a day. When I don't response to the email right away, he sends another one. I can't response to each email right when I get it.
Step 3 - What potential solutions would you consider?
The & indicates solutions requested by the filer.
* Payment sent but merchandise not received.
& I am willing to give a full or partial refund. (******* gave the figure $21.51). Please enter the amount. $
& I would be willing to contact the shipping company and find out what happened.
& I would like the other party to contact the shipping company and find out what happened.
& I would be willing to help file a shipping insurance claim.
I would like the other party to trace the payment.
& I would be willing to ship the merchandise.
& Other. ******* wrote: I want either my money returned in FULL including shipping, or the item ASAP, with a tracking number.
Please enter additional details.
My response: I would like to wait for the investigation of the fraud unit and come to a solution after their investigation.
(In this section, I picked other and I would like the other party to trace the merchandies)
* No response to my messages.
Other. ****** wrote: I want him to respond to me for once. I email him, and it takes up to 2 weeks for a response. Please enter additional details.
My response: ***** sends me several emails in a day. When I don't response to the email right away, he sends another one. I can't response to each email right when I get it.
(edited for readiblity and to get rid of names)
[ edited by tc61380 on Nov 17, 2002 10:50 AM ]
posted on November 17, 2002 11:28:24 AM new"about the customs form, I put some stamps onto the package and dropped it in the mailbox (it's less than a pound), so I don't have a customs form. >P...i haven't had problems with this before, all my packages to Canada have arrived safely."
I mail lots of packages to Canada, actually they are coin envelopes, all are way under a pound. They are bulky because they contain rubber stamps. My post office says that I have to fill out a custons form.
Are they right or wrong? Most times I think posters on AW know more than USPS employees. You get so many different answers to the same question at the PO, they remind me of the IRS. I would love to just stamp them & drop in a mailbox.
So, is it true that you don't need a customs form for packages under 1 pound?
posted on November 17, 2002 03:56:50 PM new
tc61380,
Well.... your last post may have shone some light on the situation. You might want to visit this site:
http://ircalc.usps.gov/custforms.htm
When you review the conditions for customs forms, you'll notice that you do not need a custom form ONLY if the contents are not dutiable. Anything that is being bought on eBay as merchandise is most likely a dutiable item. It is possible that customs could be seizing your items for investigation. When sending international shipments of merchandise, you must use a customs form regardless of weight. While this knowledge probably won't help your situation at this point, hopefully it will help you avoid a similiar situation in the future.
posted on November 17, 2002 05:35:10 PM new
This is a interesting topic because at the moment I have 3 people all saying they did not receive their merchandise. I know I have shipped it and have receipts. One did not pay for insurance but is angry. I scanned my receipt and e-mailed it to them..Beyond this what can you do? They can neg me but I don't feel I owe them their money back since they didn't pay for insurance. Any thoughts? Also one was to a APO and I had to fill out a customs form. I don't remember having to do this before. I can't remember where it was to but could it be the package is in customs?
