posted on January 11, 2003 05:12:22 PM new
I have sold over 3,000 items on eBay, and for the first time, someone has complained that I charged exact postage plus $2 for a large amount of bubble wrap, packing, tape etc. I do not put postage rates in my listings because I sell Internationally from Canada, and my goods go all over the world. The buyer said that I should have said that there was an extra handling charge in my listing. She sent the Paypal payment with the comment "postage $9, undisclosed handling cost $2" Maybe I am wrong, but I assumed this was part of the postal cost, I have NEVER had a compaint, and some people comment on my fair postal rates. Should I put a handling cost in my listings for items requiring bubble wrap etc.?
posted on January 11, 2003 05:21:12 PM new
Amber I think to be safe you should say S/H in your TOS that way they should know there is probably a handling charge tacked on. You can even say what your handling charge is but if they want to know for sure they will have to email you and ask if they don't understand the H in S/H. There are a lot of sellers that charge a handling charge and I for one don't think that is to high but then others might.
posted on January 11, 2003 05:33:58 PM new
Thanks Libra63, I will take your advise and change my TOS. I have alway stated "buyer pays postage" and assumed that they knew that would include a little extra for envelopes, purchases packing materials etc, but I guess I should not "assume". I thought that handling meant the time you took to do the packing that you expected to be paid for, and that is something I have never done, but I guess it also means the materials used in packing.
posted on January 11, 2003 06:19:06 PM new
If you really want to stop any complaints, put actual postage plus $2.00 handling charge, in your tos. If I know upfront exactly what handling charge is, I cannot get upset if I bid. Since you know exactly what handling charge you want, disclose it upfront. Using S/H still leaves the door open for complaint on the amount of handling charges.
posted on January 11, 2003 06:51:17 PM new
amber, that cry baby is near brand new? I just bet. 3000 things,,,,don't let this snieveler upset you.....One in a million. $2,,oh! the pain of IT! Oh!!!! and following those carved in stone e bay rules, bull! it's your business. And when they run to ebay with their frivolus out cries,,,,,E bay response is,,,,,We are just a venue....they care less....I know,,, they messed up once when "I" was the buyer and they assumed(because even the e bay person never read all the info.) I was the seller. they told me all the ways to screw the buyer! I was the Buyer......GREAT info. It immediately changed my thinking as a seller....I then knew there rubber stamps.......Thet defend US sellers,,,,screw the BUYERS. We sellers pay their bills NOT the buyers.....they know who butters their bread.....
posted on January 11, 2003 07:52:17 PM new
Shipping is the bane of my existence.
I used to add on a fee for packing materials. It caused me no end of grief with customers. I added all kinds of verbage to my TOS. Didn't help.
So I gave up. Instead I modified my minimum bid amounts such that packing material, if any, was covered. I encourage priority mail so I can use the free boxes, and I use primarily paper shreds for packing unless the item is fragile.
Once in a while this does mean I eat a bit. Not often, but my customers have all stopped complaining, and that means it's worth it. I get a lot of return customers now.
In any case, you absolutely cannot assume that buyers will assume you have a handling fee. If I got charged one when it wasn't listed in the auction, I'd raise holy hell. Put it in your TOS and you're covered.
posted on January 12, 2003 04:27:30 AM new
Part of postage - no
Part of shipping cost - yes
If a buyer is narrow minded enough not to realize that the internal tape, wrapping, cardboard, etc., is a part of the 'purchase' price; let them receive an item that is just slid into a Priority Mail envelope or box (with no internal packing or support) and see how thrilled they are to receive it in whatever condition it arrives in.
--------------------------------------------
Invest in the Future, by saving some of the Past!
posted on January 12, 2003 04:29:17 AM new
Oh boy! this issue will never die...the people that whine about a handling charge give new meaning to the word CHEAPSKATE.
The barebones of the situation is that the winning bidder has bought the item...PERIOD...NO MORE THAN THAT. As in any auction, it is the buyer that must arrange for transportation out of the auction location. If the buyer doesn't want to pay my time and material costs to have the item shipped, then I'll leave it at the end of my driveway for him or his messenger service to pick up...no charge at all.
What these people never seem to understand is that they are demanding that I not only pay for the packing supplies, gas, etc, but also that I work for them for nothing in return...that's equivalent to slavery.
Finally, as Confucius says...there is no free lunch.
posted on January 12, 2003 06:43:56 AM new
What I do is this:
I list a flat-rate "SHIPPING FEE"....composed of:
"POSTAGE/HANDLING/PACKAGING"
The above quotes are right out of me auctions. PLUS: with the use of the wunderfulllll STEALTH MODE postage printing from ENDICIA.COM, I've only had 1 (ONE!) shipping fee complaint over the past YEAR
(some EXPERT wanted me to ship gas station road maps via MEDIA MAIL???)
I try to estimate approx $1.00 over actual RETAIL postage just to cover all the incidentals which comprise my...
SHIPPING FEE
The separate components of my SHIPPING FEE is nobody's business but mine. If a bidder objects to my SHIPPING FEE, he is more than welcomed to bid SOMEPLACE ELSE
"What we have heah is a fail-ure to communicate!"
http://tinyurl.com/315v
[ edited by tomwiii on Jan 12, 2003 06:47 AM ]
posted on January 12, 2003 07:56:17 AM new
Well, I can understand some of the reactions, but I guess the anti-customer remarks surprise me a bit.
I still believe that the customer is always right. I don't want to lose money, of course, and I organize things such that I do not... but the customer is always right.
And as to the slavery comment... come on. That's just dopey. If you own a business as a sole proprietor, your pay is your profit.
In any event, customers could care less how we fund our packing. They're simply concerned with getting the best deal they can, period, and are unconcerned with our profitability. Nor should they be.
posted on January 12, 2003 08:16:19 AM new
as to the slavery comment...buyers don't ask you to list your items for sale in the first place so how can they be asking you to work for nothing?..they are doing you a service by bidding.
any item that is put up for sale on ebay has another just like it down the line...I will wait until I find one with actual shipping charge only and email asking that charge before I bid..
if shipping price is quoted and it sounds like more than $1.00 over actual shipping, I do not bid...AND I AM SURE I AM NOT THE ONLY BIDDER THAT DOES THIS...so tack on exorbitant charges and keep wondering where the bids are.
posted on January 12, 2003 08:23:26 AM newI still believe that the customer is always right.
You know, I've noticed there's a big disconnect between the public persona and the internal policies in most businesses today.
While a biggie like Home Depot insists that the customer is always right and any disgruntled customer can call the CEO, our recent horrendous experience with HD proves that it's all public relations puffery.
And that's what "the customer is always right" was invented to be: empty PR that encourages people to shop with you. Businesses that use TCIAR as an internal policy lose employees and/or profitability. Look at http://www.customerssuck.com if you don't believe that TCIAR is a road to hell if you're interested in retaining top employees.
posted on January 12, 2003 08:26:39 AM new
rarriffle: Our shipping fee is generally $3.40 over actual postage. Or more. In some cases it is $4.15 over actual postage.
Yet we continue to have 96% sellthrough. And possibly the most loyal repeat customer cadre on eBay.
posted on January 12, 2003 09:03:08 AM new
rarriffle says If you really want to stop any complaints, put actual postage plus $2.00 handling charge, in your tos.
I don't agree that a seller should divide shipping from handling costs in their TOS. Just put one amount S&H. I have seldom had a complaint.
I will wait until I find one with actual shipping charge only and email asking that charge before I bid.. But didn't you recently say that you were going to start adding $1.00 handling fee yourself?
The customer is always right? NO, NO, NO!!!!
I used to try to think that. After dealing face to face with customers for years I know for a fact that they are not always right. And if you always bend to your customer when they are wrong you are taking undeserved abuse and also a financial loss.
Over the years I found out that certain customers aren't worth my energy. If the customer is always right WHY would ebay have a "block bidder" feature?
posted on January 12, 2003 09:43:23 AM new
kiara, you are right, i did say I am going to start adding a handling fee. and when I do i will state that amount, $1.00 handling fee (or whatever), in the auction.
I think anything over $1.00 or $1.50 is highway robbery.
I am not the one who said the customer is always right, nor do I believe that in any venue, ebay or brick and mortar shop.
fluffy, don't you sell unique jewelry pieces? how can you justify that much handling charge? it is your business and i would never attempt to tell you how to run it but I, as a buyer would be upset with that amount.
Please know that I am not judging your business practices, unless I am bidding on your auctions. this is JMHO.
posted on January 12, 2003 09:49:02 AM new
The items where I have added a charge are things like sets of dinnerware and china, where I use a lot of heavy bubble wrap. I cannot put my postage cost in my TOS because I sell from Canada, and every State, Province of Canada and country are different. I invite people to email and ask for postage. If I change my TOS from "buyer pays postage" to "buyer pays shipping" is that sufficient? I could put the handling cost, but that seems strange when I haven't put a postage cost.
posted on January 12, 2003 10:15:25 AM new
In my experience, if you don't call it S&H, the assumption is that you are swallowing any packing fees. Since you don't list the items shipping fees in the auction (intn'l shipping), Then when you send the total with shipping, I would change 'Postage' in your email to read 'S&H'. It is a regular term used to indicate almost the same thing, but covers handling. I don't ever spell out 'Shipping and Handling'. I only use the short 'S&H'. People know what it means, but they don't complain as much about it as they used to (psychological I guess).
posted on January 12, 2003 11:01:12 AM new
Yes, what William says makes a lot of sense.
rarriffle: Some of the jewelry is one-of-a-kind; most are multiples. I don't break down S&H; I say in BIG BOLD TEXT: "There is a fixed shipping fee of $x.xx for this lot. We do not combine auctions."
Every couple of months I get an 'actual postage' whine in a feedback (which I could avoid by using Endicia) but I sincerely believe most people are so thrilled by the quality of what they get that they don't care about the shipping fee. I believe it because it seems to be true.
In fact, I think most postage whines are really about something else. "I paid $6 in shipping for THIS?!?"
posted on January 12, 2003 11:25:07 AM newSo I gave up. Instead I modified my minimum bid amounts such that packing material, if any, was covered.
And eBay is so much the happier and wealthier for it as they get a percentage as profit for you trying to pay your expenses.
I think anything over $1.00 or $1.50 is highway robbery.
And where do you get your illegal immigrants to do your packing? Where do you steal your materials? I know the person who packs our shipments would quit if we only paid him that much to packand ship a package PROPERLY.
.................................................
We call them our heroes...but we pay them like chumps
posted on January 12, 2003 01:18:08 PM new
fluffythewondercat, I love the customerssuck website. LOL
The people who mantain the customer is always right either have never run a B&M business or haven't been in business very long.
amber, you've had 3,000 successful sales with no complaints. Don't let this one customer run your business. Why redo your whole TOS because one person out of 3,000 wasn't happy.
I agree with the above posters, change the word "postage" to "S&H" and forget about it. It sounds like your doing a great job.
posted on January 12, 2003 04:17:23 PM new
If you don't think that bubble wrap, tape, label etc are a part of postage, try mailing an item without these things.
posted on January 14, 2003 10:45:28 PM new
Amber & Evryone else;
I have been at this about 2 years now and am by no means a pro but I learned this:
I always List as S/H fees inclusive.
I charge the basic postage for each item weighed on my scale, then the average of handling costs, i.e wrap, tape, cardboard, fill, most of which I have bought as well as envelopes, boxes, etc. Priority Mail USPS has been awful lately inspite of the hefty prices we pay now and I can't get any of my supplies thru them regular enough so I am using my supplies I use for other non-Priority mailings to fulfill orders.
I have never yet had a complaint about my packaging and fees; actually to the contrary:
I often take loses as I try to charge right dow to a few cents difference the postage fee. I see sellers out there who intend and plan their auctions to make money on extra s/h costs with lower bids. They figure they will make close to what they think the itme is worth.
I stay away from those sellers when I can cause I see the "Gimmick".
So, I do it like this:
Most items I sell go this way:
Customer gets to pick at checkout type of s/h:
Priority: $4.00 or $4.50
Parcel Post: $3.00 or 3.50
First Class Mail: $2.50 or 3.00
Media Mail= $2.50 or 2.00
I don't get complaints and its clear.
Besides, they get to choose how fast they want it and what they can afford.
Just a suggestion. And don't let one buyer change your whole business. Customers do there best but they aren't always right and sometimes they are. It's called negotiation. I specify s/h is not negotiable. This way, they know how you operate and respect you for it.
posted on January 15, 2003 06:25:01 AM new
Hi amber,
I am also in Canada but I always put a flat rate delivery charge (that's what I call it) in my auction description for U.S. bidders --it is a combination of an average mid-U.S. postage cost plus an added amount for my costs of packaging, materials, shipping & handling, time, travel, and takes into account that if was to charge someone $1.84 for postage on a $5.99 item, and they paid by PayPal, I would be losing a lot on the transaction because of the eBay fees -- so I just put in a flat rate of $3.00 or something, depending on the item, weight, etc. I truly try not to overcharge and have only had one complaint that my flat rate was too high -- and when I explained it, the bidder seemed to understand.
You should try to include the amount you are going to charge, it will avoid those kinds of disputes if you list it up front, except in rare situations where someone is a jerk, you get complaints sometimes regardless of what you do.
You will also find listing the amount of shipping or delivery or S/H in your auction speeds up the post-auction process a lot & cuts down on the number of back&forth e-mails you have to do.
posted on January 15, 2003 06:55:07 AM new
Thanks for the suggestion upriver. I find that works for lighter items, but what about heavy things. The plate in question in my original message weighed over 5 lbs, and the difference to various States is so varied, it would mean I could lose out on postage, which I often do anyway. People seem happy to write and ask for postage rates, but I need to consider if putting them in my listings for a blanket amount would work.
I agree. Those flat amounts are an example. I weigh each item to be sure with packing what it will cost just so I don't lose out on s/h fees...
With the items you refer to I would certainly make sure the customer pays the cost since that is a heavy item and your packing supplies have to be covered.
So, yes, you should add both together and now list as S/H fees with a non-negotiable statement or something like that.
posted on January 16, 2003 09:47:36 AM new
Thanks Robin, that's a help. As I said before, no one else has ever complained, I have actually had someone send $5 extra because they didn't think I was charging enough, and a couple of people send extra for me to use extra packing materials. I guess you will always get the odd complainer, the thing that erks me is that I paid over $10 for the plate, it sold for $7.99, and then the buyer complains about $2 extra for the packing. This is one case where I will certainly not leave positive feedback before they leave feedback for me!
posted on January 16, 2003 11:19:20 AM new
"buyer pays postage"
As some have said. I have found keep your boiler plate short. List P/H on each lot. Many won't bid without it. I use "P/H" not "Postage and Handling". 98% bidders understand and never is a problem. The other 2%?.... well I just got a (+) feed back that MY postage costs were to big ($2.00 postage and $7.50 customer requested registration to South Africa). I just blocked him and moved on.
