posted on March 3, 2003 11:30:18 AM new
I am so sick of Paypal and their ways of doing business. I have a buyer in Canada who left me a neg for non-receipt of item (less than 3 weeks after payment). I shipped it within a few days of payment. No emails from them asking about it, etc. So, after I see they left me a neg, I email the buyer to try and open dialogue. Their response....they ignore me and then file a complaint with paypal. Basically, wanting a refund, or a tracking number. USPS of course, doesn't provide tracking to Canada, so basically I am screwed.
Here is the catch though... In January, I blocked all unconfirmed address payments, yet apparently Paypal still allows International unconfirmed address payments to go through. Am I hallucinating, or did I not block those to begin with?
Are there any other options for credit card purchasing beyond paypal that doesn't require a person to sign up? Am I just barking up the wrong tree and opening another whole can of worms?
I am sick of Paypal and their ways of doing business. I had a chargeback in January that resulted in close to $160 removed from my account because Paypal let someone use their system to commit fraud. Then of course, Paypal will not give me any information regarding the individual who filed this complaint unless I have a subpeona. They could do a much better job of protecting sellers from things like this, yet they don't.
posted on March 3, 2003 11:53:02 AM new
Rusty, I am a small seller and this is one of the reasons I do not take PayPal for Internationals. (shipping issues) The other reason is I don't want to pay the fees for them to convert funds. Can't afford any more fees, everyone has their hand out and my pocket is getting empty. Use BidPay for your Internationals. That is the only International Bidder Payment Method I take. No problems with bidders or BidPay.
posted on March 3, 2003 03:10:11 PM newRusty: PP's rules are VERY CLEAR in relation to INTERNATIONAL PAYMENTS -- NONE are covered by the SELLERS PROTECTION PROGRAM!
There is a REFUND button at the bottom of the transaction page. WHY did you not REFUND the payment?
If you read the rules & break the rules, WHY be mad at PP??
Although I am a PP cheerleader, I DO NOT accept PP payments from International bidders; nor do I accept PP payments to UNCONFIRMED ADDRESSES!
When one follows a few simple COMMON SENSE rules, PP is a handy tool for one's auctions! Is it perfect yet? NO! And, as long as there are scammers & crooks out there, probably will never be.
All you can do is FOLLOW THE RULES & employ a little bit of plain ole COMMON SENSE!
Ralphie loves Mr Blonde:
"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?" http://tinyurl.com/5duz
posted on March 3, 2003 04:07:58 PM new
Bidpay, postal m.o. Bidpay, postal m.o.[international] thats the only way to go for out of country sales. The post office does not charge you to cash them. I love bidpay, nice and safe.
I will take p.p. but not for international sales.
posted on March 3, 2003 05:33:01 PM new
Thanks again. I have once again learned to bite the bullet, and do it with bidpay. One question though... Do you ship before you receive the money order in hand with bid pay? I have received a few bid pay payments, and have never shipped prior to having payment in hand. Any ideas???
posted on March 3, 2003 05:42:05 PM new
If I understand BidPay is when they inform you that they have the money you can ship. I had one only and that is what I did.
Good Advice from Tomwii and I think it's time we all follow that. I do ship to unconfirmed addresses and so far have not had any problems but I guess there will always be a first time. I think in my TOS I will start putting. Canadian and International bidders only BidPay is accepted. That will probably turn them away from my auctions but I wouldn't care.
posted on March 3, 2003 05:49:25 PM new
With BIDPAY, I ship as soon as I receive email #2 -- BP guarantees that I'll receive the MO, so I feel pretty safe -- plus, I like to get items to my INTERNATIONAL bidders asap, as they paid mucho to begin with.
Rusty: sorry if I'm harsh or seemingly unfeeling, but I truly feel that PP has opened a whole world of opportunity to me that otherwise would be impossible for me to afford!
It is a SUPERLATIVE SERVICE that, because of greed & dishonesty, can only be used for amounts that one can safely ABSORB AS A LOSS!
Since PP offers ABSOLUTELY 100% NO PROTECTION for international transactions, it is silly to accept them! There is even a very convenient check-box in your PP PREFERENCES page that will AUTOMATICALLY BLOCK FOREIGN PMTS!
For peace-of-mind & financial security, WE ALL SHOULD UTILIZE THIS OPTION!
Ralphie loves Mr Blonde:
"Are you gonna bark all day little doggie, or are you gonna bite?" http://tinyurl.com/5duz
posted on March 3, 2003 05:49:53 PM new
There is an option to block payments from international accounts. (under payment receiving preferences in your profile)
If you turn it on then you don't have to deal with refunding payments.
If you want to get a tracking number to Canada then only give a shipping option of EMS (global express)
posted on March 4, 2003 08:43:53 AM new
I am definitely not a paypal cheerleader but I do have to say this is NOT a paypal problem. The same thing would happen if you accepted a credit card directly. Whenever you can not prove your package was delivered to the cardholder's address, you are at risk. On Canadian orders or orders when I am asked to ship to another address, I take other things into account like: the person's rating, the amount of the order, the information the customer provides (my order form asks for their phone number, their credit card bank's phone number and the CVV code on the back of the card). So far, I have stopped some scammers using stolen credit cards and I have never been hit with a successful charge back (3 attempts). I have also never gotten a bad check and I do take personal checks and ship upon receiving them.
My person opinion is that despite the hype, the Internet is not full of crooks, though you should be vigilant. Most people are honest. Most people will not scam, particularly when you know who they are (by their check or credit card). The real problem with third-party payment services is that it allows scammers to hide behind fake names and the protection of the service, and that is why there are more reports of fraud when these payments are used.
posted on March 4, 2003 02:10:41 PM new
I don't take credit cards. At all. I don't like paying CC fees and I think chargebacks are the work of Satan, but mostly I don't like the idea that I might screw up and send out some package without a vital piece of documentation, or that I missed a rules change that screws me over.
rustygumbo, consider eliminating credit cards from your selling life altogether. You might find that you're getting rid of a headache with very little change in your sales.
--
Because of their courage and daring and idealism, we will miss them all the more. --George W. Bush, 02/01/03
Since neither Bidpay nor Payingfast charges the seller fees, and there is no risk of chargeback, why don't you offer them as a "safer" method of taking CCs?
posted on March 4, 2003 04:38:55 PM new
Bidpay and Payingfast charge some pretty hefty fees. Customers want to make quick, painless purchases. Telling them to go to some other site and pay in order to buy something will cost you business. I only use these for foreign customers.
Yes, accepting credit cards cost money and there is some risk. So why does every major business do it? Because they have discovered that: 1) you get a lot more business and 2) the average order becomes a lot higher. If you're selling nickel and dime stuff or specialty items that are hard to find, you might get away with not accepting CC but if you're selling anything substantial or items for which there is a lot of competition and you don't take CC, your potential customers will go to someone who does.
You can minimize the risks. I have not had a single successful charge back in over three years on line. The last unsuccessful attempt was about two years ago.
As for the cost, you have to figure out how to build it in. What I did is add a separate handling fee, which is a percentage of the sale. As the customer adds items to the shopping cart, I show the total and the handling fee and beneath it I show "discount for non credit card order" followed by the total without the handling. Then I have two buttons. One says "credit card order " with a total and the other says "non credit card order" with a lower total. It then becomes the customer's choice which to use. I also offer valuable free bonuses, so even those who choose credit card feel they are getting something extra.
posted on March 4, 2003 05:02:55 PM newBidpay and Payingfast charge some pretty hefty fees
Bidpay did drop the cost of buying a m.o. so I do not think their rates are hefty by any means, I find their rates pretty low. Have not heard any of my bidders complain about it as its a great service.
posted on March 4, 2003 05:38:47 PM new
"Since neither Bidpay nor Payingfast charges the seller fees, and there is no risk of chargeback, why don't you offer them as a `safer' method of taking CCs?"
If someone wants to use a credit card to buy a money order, I have no problem with that; that's their business. That means they are paying me by MONEY ORDER.
Clear now?
--
Because of their courage and daring and idealism, we will miss them all the more. --George W. Bush, 02/01/03
posted on March 4, 2003 05:44:14 PM new
"So why does every major business do it? Because they have discovered that: 1) you get a lot more business and 2) the average order becomes a lot higher."
Actually, from the days when I had a merchant account of my own and also used the merchant account at the antique mall where I had a space, this simply is not true.
Just like the statistics that are published every month or so about how the Internet is "unsafe" for children (statistics that are produced by the companies that make filtering software), the statistics on CC acceptance come straight from the big CC clearinghouses.
That's enough reason for me to doubt.
People don't want to use their CC so they can charge more; they want to use it so they feel "safe". If the environment is already safe enough for them, they will eschew CCs to get what they want.
There is no shortage of people buying at flea markets, garage sales, thrift shops, true factory outlets and other venues that only accept cash. That alone is ample evidence that you don't need to accept credit cards to make sales.
--
Because of their courage and daring and idealism, we will miss them all the more. --George W. Bush, 02/01/03
posted on March 5, 2003 06:29:58 AM new
>>yisgood, would you mind telling us how you successfully appealed the charge backs?<<
#1: I think the guy either forgot what he ordered or tried to pull a fast one. I sent in proof of the order (the original order form) and proof of delivery.
#2: The guy ordered a monitor shipped out of state. Then he told me he found a better deal so he wanted a full refund (including shipping) and he wanted me to pay to have it picked up. I told him nothing doing. He said he would charge it back. I called Amex (he had used an Amex card) and asked them how they would handle this. They asked me if I had sales terms posted on my site. I said absolutely. They said that if my terms discussed returns, then that was the policy they would follow. (So much for the Paypal lie that when a credit card is used, the customer can charge back anything at any time for any reason.) So I told the guy he could return it at his expense and I would refund him the full amount he paid, including shipping. He decided that it wasn't worth the effort.
#3: This guy won an auction for a laser printer and emailed me that I had to call him to get his CC number because he would not send it any other way. So I called him. 4 months later, he charged it back, claiming his son ordered it without his permission. I called his issuer (Bank of Monrovia) to dispute it. I told them that I had his full CC information, including the CVV number (which indicates that he must have given the card to his son) and I had proof that I called him (and I spoke to an adult, not a child.) Since I shipped it to the cardholder's address with proof of signature, what basis was there for a charge back, particularly when he still had the printer? They tried to tell me that their policy was if the customer claimed unauthorized use, the seller lost no matter what. I told them to send me such a letter in writing. I also had one of their credit cards and I also had a son, so they had just given me an idea of how to pay his college tuition. I would be sure to explain to every seller I pulled this on that the Bank of Monrovia had recommended this. They very quickly decided to deny the chargeback.
One of the things my order form asks for is the phone number of the issuing bank, in case I have any questions about the card. But this serves another purpose. If I ever do get a stupid charge back like #3 and the bank upholds it, I will decline any orders from that bank and explain to the customer why I can't accept the order. I don't know why credit card companies feel that they can stiff their customers (remember that the SELLER is the customer, since he pays for the merchant account). I don't know why sellers just accept this, as if this can never be changed. It can be changed and it will. There is a growing movement, which Amex and Discover are joining and Visa and MC are also reluctantly joining, to make it harder to do unjustified charge backs and make the issuing bank - not the seller, foot the bill in some cases.
posted on March 5, 2003 07:23:21 AM new
>>My CC company has gotten me several chargebacks without any problems what so ever... <<
It is not YOUR CC company that decides whether to accept the charge back, it is the bank behind the credit card used. My web site is full of information about credit cards and how it works. I got my information from officers in the CC department of large banks. Some of it was hair-raising. A lot of it is bluff. It is too much trouble for the issuer to follow up on every complaint, so sometimes they will just let it pass and hope the seller doesn't protest. If the seller protests, then they will take a look. Often they do whatever takes the least effort and cave in to whichever side is pushing harder. I was told about a lawyer who charges back every single item on his card every month, just because he knows that he has that right. Then the vendors have to provide proof. A few are unable to find the paperwork and they lose.
>The true customer of CC's is the one doing the buying... why do you think that there is buyer protection plans... <<
The definition of customer is the person who pays for the service. Who pays Visa or Amex or MC? The seller. So why is there buyer protection and not seller protection? Because if buyers didn't feel protected, they wouldn't use it and then the whole business wouldn't have taken off. (Why do you think Paypal keeps pushing their "protection" plan, even though it has been proven that there is no real, dependable protection to either side?)
The credit card companies did a lot of unscrupulous things to get people to accept credit cards. Silly charge back rules were one of them. The restrictive rules a merchant must follow in order to accept cards is another. You are not allowed to insist on a minimum amount in order to charge. If a customer wants to charge a pack of gum, by Visa rules you have to allow it, even though it will cost you more than the whole deal. They also fool customers by pretending that the most you can lose if your card is stolen is $50. They try to downplay identity theft, which has cost people tens of thousands. If people took a good hard look at the CC industry, they might not be so quick to use their credit cards.
posted on March 5, 2003 11:01:45 AM new
Yes, I did the site myself, even the shopping cart. I considered it a learning experience. And I anyone is interested, they can have the source code for the cart. It is in ASP, so it requires a windows based server, not Unix or Linux.
There are no guarantees when it comes to charge backs. But sellers have been led to believe that they always lose. This is not the case. You need to exercise some common sense and there are some rules in place to protect you.
Validate the card by checking the address (AVS) and the CVV code (three extra numbers that follow the regular number). Vendors are not permitted to show the CVV code on credit card slips and order forms. So if a hacker steals a credit card number, he may get the name, address and expiration date, but he will not get the CVV. This alone helps me detect the occasional fraudulent order on my site.
Always ship to the verified address. Customers may say they want it shipped to their work address. You can always tell them to call their credit card bank and add that address to their account. If you ship to an address that is not on the account, you will lose any charge back.
Always use a trackable shipping method. Even first class mail can be tracked for 13 cents. On expensive items, get signature confirmation. This is available from the PO for 1.25 to 1.75. Tip: take a look at Endicia http:/www.ccs-digital.com/endicia.asp This service is well worth the 9.95 a month. Free electronic delivery confirmation for priority, 13 cents on first class and media mail, you can track your packages and print out delivery confirmation that shows the specific address it was sent to and when it was delivered. The DC you buy at the PO for 50 cents only proves the zip code, not the address.
Items going out of the country or to an APO address can not be tracked. You decide if you want to risk it or pay for insurance. I do get such orders and so far, no problems. The only package I sent that was ever lost was going to an APO address and it was insured.
I have never charged a fraudulent credit card and my last charge back attempt was about 2 years ago. Credit cards carry some risk but not as much as people claim. Third party payment services carry a lot more risk, even when payment is not from a credit card. Buyers and sellers can hide behind email IDs and use fake names to open the account. Even if you prove you were scammed, the service will not divuldge any information without a subpoena, so they will protect known criminals. And there are no rules to protect you, despite claims to the contrary. The "rules" are wide open to interpretation and interpretation is done by whichever minimum wage clerk handles the complaint.
posted on March 5, 2003 11:03:59 AM new
I have avoided several charge backs by showing documentation that the bank accepted and I keep full documentation of everything.
One time I had a charge back 6 months later even though she had given me positive feedback when she originally received the item and she was happy with her purchase.
It was my first charge back and a busy time for me and I did not dispute it long enough or hard enough and I lost out.
Most people are honest but some make it their life's work trying to screw merchants and scam everything they can for free. It's time that merchants try to fight back the best they can.
posted on March 5, 2003 01:47:08 PM new
Isn't there a time limit for chargebacks through PayPal? A week after delivery is made ought to be time enough.
posted on March 5, 2003 02:00:19 PM new
>>Isn't there a time limit for chargebacks through PayPal? <<
If the purchase is funded from bank account or paypal balance, buyer has 30 days to make the complaint. If funded through credit card and buyer does a charge back, it is up to the card issuer. Typically that is 90 days but since it can take a few months until the seller hears about it, some sellers have gotten charge backs 6-8 months later. One seller reported getting a chargeback about 16 months later but that was one of those things that slipped through the cracks. Paypal forgot to tell him about it and by the time the computer decided to charge his account, it was way past the deadline. I believe Paypal agreed to eat the charge back themselves. First of all, it was their fault and second, if they didn't and admitted that sellers could be hit so long after, how many sellers would have continued using the service? (except for those cheerleaders who seem to think it can never happen to them)
One of the problems with the 30-day rule is that buyers are pressured to complain too quickly. A seller in the US sends something to a buyer in Canada. It takes a week to get there, Customs holds it up for 2 weeks. There is no tracking number, so buyer makes a complaint and Paypal takes the money from the seller and places it on hold. A week later, it shows up. Now it is up to the buyer to correct the problem. Some sellers have reported that even after the buyer contacts paypal and tells them it has been received, they still don't get the money.
When you do a charge back through the credit card, they first ask you if you are certain that there is a problem. If you say the merchandise hasn't come yet, they tell you to wait 30 days BEFORE complaining. Of course, credit cards have the luxury of being able to recover their money. Paypal has to worry that the seller will disappear with the funds. But they don't seem to distinguish between some new seller and someone who has transacted (and is continuing to transact) a lot of business with them.
posted on March 5, 2003 02:07:19 PM new
So there is never a time we can breathe easy after a sale? I don't understand how someone can leave a positive feedback and later on do a chargeback. If we want to contest a chargeback, do we do this through PayPal or through the card holder's bank then? Would it do any good to put a time limit on returns in the auction terms?
posted on March 5, 2003 03:39:26 PM new
The bank I have my merchant account through will notify me if there is an attempted charge back and then I am required to send all documentation to them.
Anyone can get the goods, leave positive feedback and then do a charge back if they choose to. But if they do this too often you would think the bank that issued the credit card would wonder about them. Then again, anyone can have numerous cards, right?
And the bank isn't out any money, in fact they gain an additional surcharge from the seller because of the charge back so no worries for them.
I don't think a time limit on returns would help at all if they can dispute it up to 6 months or longer. I know most people are honest and if I get the occasional charge back I will try to remind myself that it's the cost of doing business and the risks are there.
I think this depends very much on what you are selling and the amount of money involved. Some categories are worse than others so you have to take that into account as well. Yisgood has given some good info and it's something every seller should be made aware of.
posted on March 5, 2003 03:54:41 PM newWould it do any good to put a time limit on returns in the auction terms?
As long as you take cc online payments your terms mean nothing, squat, zilch, zero, nada!
You might have a small chance with your own merchant account as yisgood states, but if you go with a third party like P/P. your odds are next to zip because P.P. can not control the cardholders bank.
